Trial Transcripts


August 20, 1979

Jane Zillioux (recalled)

Scans of original transcript
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MR. SEGAL:  The Defendant calls Mrs. Jane Zillioux, Your Honor.

THE CLERK:  Ms. Zillioux, would you come around please and take the witness stand?  You have previously been sworn in this matter.

(Whereupon, JANE ZILLIOUX was recalled as a witness, and having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:)


D I R E C T  E X A M I N A T I O N  11:20 a.m

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Would you state your full name and address for the record, please?
A  Jane Zillioux; 6495 Southwest 83rd Street, Miami, Florida.
Q  And would you spell your lastname, Ms. Zillioux?
A  Capital Z, like in zebra-i-l-l-i-o-u-x.
Q  And are you employed?
A  I handed in my resignation the 9th of this month to the Department of Corrections to the State of Florida.
Q  How long have you worked with the Department of Corrections in Florida?
A  Slightly over a year as Staff Assistant to the Regional Director.
Q  Did you ever live in Nashville, Tennessee, Mrs. Zillioux?
A  Yes, sir; I did.
Q  And from when until when approximately were you living in Nashville?
A  I lived in Nashville from September,1970, until about March, 1971.
Q  And at that time were you married to Mr. Zillioux?
A  No, sir; I was single.
Q  And what was your maiden name?
A  McCampbell.
Q  And would you spell that for us?
A  Capital M-small c-capital C-a-m-p like in Paul, b like in Bill-e-l-l.
Q  Where did you live in Nashville, Mrs. Zillioux?
A  119 Portland Avenue.
Q  What kind of neighborhood was that?  Could you give us a little description of the area?
A  It was a very poor neighborhood.  It was a lot of people on social security and welfare who lived there.  It was a hippie area.  The rent was low -- 55 dollars a month for unfurnished apartments.
Q  Did you meet a lady by the name of Helena Stoeckley sometime while you were living in Nashville?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you recall when you first met Helena Stoeckley?
A  Yes, sir; I had a great big, yellow Persian cat and he used to stroll out for air.  He strolled into the street one day and Helena retrieved him for me, and that's how I got to know her.
Q  About what month and in what year was that?
A  September, 1970.
Q  September, 1970.  Do you know how long that Helena Stoeckley had been living in the neighborhood prior to that time?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you find out after a while where she actually lived in Nashville?
A  She lived right across the street from me in a little white house.  I called it the hippie house because there were all kinds of hippies in there -- you know -- from 15 to 22.
Q  How many people would you say lived in that house at any one time?
A  I don't know, but they had bunks stacked up in the back -- you know -- all along the walls.
Q  Now, did you ever find out that Helena Stoeckley had once lived in Fayetteville, North Carolina, or that she lived in North Carolina at all?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When did you find that out?
A  Shortly after I met her; she used to come to my apartment to take a shower because that hippie house didn't have very good facilities, and the shower didn't always work, and she asked me if she could come to my apartment to take a shower so she could keep herself clean because she was clean.  I said, "Sure, bring your own towel."
Q  Now, during one or more of those visits -- is that when you learned that she was from the Fayetteville area?
A  Yes; she told me that her father was an officer at the base, and I knew that she had had advantages.  I thought that she was a runaway because she looked so young -- you know -- she was sick.  She had hepatitis.
Q  And when you say that her father was an officer at the base, did you learn that was Fort Bragg, North Carolina?
A  Yes, sir; it was Fort Bragg.
Q  Now, did you ever find out or ever discuss with her the reasons why she left Fayetteville, North Carolina?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

MR. SEGAL:  May I not ascertain whether or not she learned it without the conversation being stated?

THE COURT:  I will let her say yes or no.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did you ever learn the reason why Ms. Stoeckley said she left North Carolina?
A  Yes.
Q  You cannot tell us that, however.

MR. MURTAGH:  OB --

MR. SEGAL:  Do you want me to have her tell us?

THE COURT:  Ask your question.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  About what month, if you can pinpoint it, Mrs. Zillioux, did you hear from Helena Stoeckley the reasons for her leaving North Carolina?
A  It was right around the last of October or November.  It was right around Thanksgiving time -- somewhere around that.
Q  1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When was the last time you saw Ms. Stoeckley in Nashville?
A  Well, I don't remember when the last time I saw her -- the last time I spoke to her I remember very well.
Q  Okay, when was the last time you spoke to Helena Stoeckley?
A  When I went to her apartment to check on her because she was sick, and I hadn't seen her for a few days.
Q  Again, you cannot tell us what was said.  Do you recall a date or a month in which that conversation took place?
A  Around Thanksgiving.
Q  Of 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And that was the last time you had occasion to talk with Helena; is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Have you seen Helena Stoeckley during any time in the last week?
A  Yes.
Q  Could you tell the members of the jury where and under what circumstances you had occasion to see Ms. Stoeckley?
A  I was in the witness room Friday -- Thursday afternoon -- the first time I had seen Helena in ten years, and I recognized her immediately.  I said, "Hello, Helena."
Q  Were you present in the witness room when Helena Stoeckley was shown a series of photographs in a book similar to the one that I am holding in my hand?
A  Yes, sir; I was.
Q  Were you seated in the room when that was taking place?
A  I was seated right beside her.
Q  And who was the person who showed her those photographs?
A  I believe Mr. Beasley probably.
Q  Did Ms. Stoeckley continue to look at those photographs more than once?
A  At least four tines she kept going back to the photograph of the smallest MacDonald child  -- the one that the baby was laying in bed in a pool of blood and had its little bottle.
Q  Now, let me show you some photographs that have previously been marked in evidence and see perhaps if you can tell us which one of the photographs Ms. Stoeckley returned to.  I have, just to make it a little Ieasier, put some paperclips on some photos here.
A  It was this one.

MR. SEGAL:  The witness has indicated the photo that has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit G-60, Your Honor, which has previously been identified here in court as a photograph of Kristen MacDonald in her pajamas on the bed.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, what, if anything, did Helena Stoeckley say -- well, did she say anything the first time she looked at the picture?

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, we would OBJECT.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did Helena Stoeckley ever indicate to you that she had ever seen the scene or the person depicted in that picture previous to the time that she looked at that book?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did Helena Stoeckley in any way indicate familiarity with the materials there?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Was there anything else in that book that Ms. Stoeckley had occasion to look at and took some particular note of during the time that you were present?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION to the question.

MR. SEGAL:  I am not asking for conversation, Your Honor -- only reactions.

THE COURT:  I will let her say yes or no to that one.

THE WITNESS:  Yes.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  And was it in regard to some other picture in that book?
A  Two.
Q  Would you look through the book again -- well, do you know what was depicted in the first of those two pictures?  We will do them one at a time.  What is depicted in the picture that you say something was said about?
A  A  child's rocking horse.
Q  All right, would you look again at the pictures and again either the paperclips may be of some help in the back of the book or you may find them yourself?
A  This one.

MR. SEGAL:  May the record reflect that the witness has indicated a photograph previously marked as G-59 which would be a longer range photograph of the bed of Kristen MacDonald showing the child in the bed and in the left foreground, a rocking horse.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, in regard to this particular photo, what, if anything, did Ms. Stoeckley say to you about that photo?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

MR. MURTAGH:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did in any way Ms. Stoeckley indicate that she recognized seeing that scene herself?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, you mentioned there was a third photograph, Mrs. Zillioux, that Ms. Stoeckley stopped and looked at.  What did that scene depict?
A  There was one -- an artist's rendition of her own face from Dr. MacDonald's police --

MR. MURTAGH:  (Interposing)  OBJECTION, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  She has stopped in the middle.  She has answered part of the question.  I will OVERRULE it as to that.  Ask your next question.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Let me show you what has been marked previously as Defendant Exhibit 89, artist's rendition of a female and ask whether this is the picture that Ms. Stoeckley stopped and looked at?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What if anything did she say when she saw that picture?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did she indicate that she recognized the face of the person depicted in that drawing?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, was Ms. Stoeckley shown some other artist-type drawings like the one you have up there?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I want to show you one that has been marked for identification as Defendant Exhibit D-90.

MR. BLACKBURN:  That has not been published.

THE WITNESS:  This is the one.

MR. SEGAL:  You are about one step ahead of me.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  What if anything happened when that -- well, first of all, was that picture shown to Ms. Stoeckley?
A  This was the picture.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor --

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  When you say, "This is the picture," though, we don't have the context.  What if anything happened when that picture was shown to Ms. Stoeckley?
A  She identified it.

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Without telling us what she said --

MR. MURTAGH:  (Interposing)  OBJECTION.

MR. SEGAL:  I don't know what -- without telling us what she said -- is an objectionable statement, but I will wait for a ruling on that, Your Honor.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, may we approach the bench?

THE COURT:  Yeah, come up.


B E N C H  C O N F E R E N C E

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, this is nothing but going in the back door with what they couldn't get in the front door with this type of question.  We object to it of course, but they are asking questions that they know are going to be sustained because of the rulings.  I think it is prejudicial to the Government in that regard, to have to go through each of these six witnesses and ask the questions.

THE COURT:  I don't think it is proper to ask a question if you know it is going to be sustained, simply to get in the evidence by the way of question; but I would hate to say that I could delve into counsel's mind and say that he knows what is going to be sustained and what ain't.

MR. SEGAL:  I will also say, Your Honor, we have -- I mean, assuming that Your Honor is going to rule the same on similar questions, we have not by my question tried to put the contents in.  That would clearly be -- you know -- I think that I should anticipate has to wait for a ruling.  I also want to say, Your Honor, I don't understand how the Court can rule on my question when Mr. Murtagh insists upon objecting when I have said three words which haven't framed it.  My whole -- maybe I was trained wrong, but I was always told unless the questioner was saying something that was totally outrageous --

THE COURT:  (Interposing)  Look, let him get his question out.

MR. BLACKBURN:  The basis of our problem is this: we have told Your Honor before this witness started that you can say barely say "Objection" before she is giving the answer.

MR. SEGAL:  I will instruct her.  That is fair.  I will ask her.

MR. BLACKBURN:  We also think it is objectionable to keep on saying two or three times every five minutes, "you can't answer that," because everybody knows that.

MR. SEGAL:  I will ask the witness to to wait before she answers any questions and see if the Government is going to object, and I won't say it again.

THE COURT:  You think that is a form of evidence, too, don't you?

MR. BLACKBURN:  It doesn't take much for the jury to figure out what somebody is going to say.

THE COURT:  Let's go.

(Bench conference terminated.)


THE COURT:  Ms. Zillioux, the lawyers exercising their prerogative in compliance with the duty to represent fully their clients occasionally interpose objections to questions.  I verily anticipate, in view of the past performances in this trial, that that will be repeated before you leave the stand.  I ask you, please, at the end of every question to wait until -- and see whether or not there is an objection.  If there's not, go ahead and answer it; and if there is, don't say anything until I can rule on it.

THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, in regard to the artist's rendition of the man that you have up there in front of you, when that particular drawing was shown to Ms. Stoeckley, did she indicate in any physical way a reaction to that drawing?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did she indicate in any way that she knew the person depicted there?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  I will OVERRULE that.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did she indicate whether she knew the person who is depicted there?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did she state the name of the person that she believed is depicted in that photograph -- that drawing?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  OVERRULED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Do you recall the name that she gave?
A  Mazzarole.
Q  Mazzarole? Did she state at that time the first name, or do you recall a first name?
A  She called him -- she said, "This is Mazzarole."
Q  Did she say anything else about her knowledge of that man at that time?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, I would also like you to take a look at one other series of photographs that are contained in this book.  I would ask you to look at the photographs that are marked Government 23, 24, 24(b), 26, which are four photographs which have been previously identified here in this trial as photographs of the MacDonald living room.  Would you look at those photographs, and they have been marked with a clip?

(Witness complies.)

Q  Have you had a chance to look at it?

(Witness nods affirmatively.)

Q  I will have to ask you to say "yes" or "no" for the stenographer?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did, at any time, if you recall, Ms. Stoeckley examine that particular grouping of photographs of the MacDonald living room?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did she in any way indicate that she recognized anything depicted in those photographs?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did she say anything indicating that she had knowledge about the physical facts depicted in that scene?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did Ms. Stoeckley say whether she had ever been at the scene depicted in those photographs?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, after Ms. Stoeckley looked at those photographs -- can you tell us perhaps for how long she had the photographs and, you know, looked at them?
A  Approximately an hour.
Q  At the end of that period of time, were the photographs taken away or put aside in some fashion?
A  Put aside.
Q  Did Ms. Stoeckley say anything at that time about the totality of the scenes depicted in there; that is, did she say anything indicating recognition and prior knowledge of the places and events depicted in those photographs?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did Ms. Stoeckley say anything to you within the time that you were in the room -- witness room with her -- about having carried a lighted candle in February of 1970?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

MR. SEGAL:  I have no further questions of Ms. Zillioux at this time, Your Honor.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Just a moment, Your Honor.

(Pause.)


C R O S S  E X A M I N A T I O N  11:40 a.m

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  Ms. Zillioux, do you recall how long you were in the witness room -- the Defendant's witness room -- with Ms. Stoeckley?
A  Sir, I never wear a watch, but it was several hours.
Q  Several hours?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  That was on Thursday of last week?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Who else was in the witness room with you, if you recall?
A  Various people at different times.
Q  Mr. Beasley?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  At whose request were you there in the room?
A  Helena's.
Q  At Helena's.  What about Mr. Beasley, do you know?
A  I never saw Mr. Beasley before the other day.
Q  Besides the two of you, who else if anyone was in the witness room with you?
A  Various people at various times, in and out.
Q  Was either Mr. Segal or one of his assistants there in the room during this time?
A  Not always.
Q  Some of the time?
A  Some of the time.

MR. BLACKBURN:  No further questions, Your Honor.

MR. SEGAL:  Your Honor have any questions of this witness?

(No response.)

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you very much, Ms. Zillioux, you may step down.

(Witness excused.)

THE COURT:  All right, now we will go take our recess and we will come back at 12:00 noon today.  Members of the jury, don't talk about the case.

(The proceeding was recessed at 11:42 a.m., to reconvene at 12:00 noon this same day.)