Trial Transcripts

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F U R T H E R  P R O C E E D I N G S  12:00 noon

(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jurv and alternates.)

THE COURT:  Any further evidence for the Defendant?

MR. SEGAL:  I am ready to call the next witness.

THE COURT:  Call him.

MR. SEGAL:  Charles Underhill, please.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, while we are waiting, may we approach the Bench?

THE COURT:  By all means.

THE CLERK:  Mr. Underhill, you have been previously sworn.  You may just go around and take a seat on the witness stand.


B E N C H  C 0 N F E R E N C E

MR. BLACKBURN:  At this time, we would request, based on the examination of this previous witness, that the Court instruct counsel for the Defendant not to ask questions that he knows objections are going to be sustained.

THE COURT:  All right, I will so instruct him.  Don't ask a question if you know that the OBJECTION is going to be SUSTAINED.

MR. SEGAL:  I was not here for part of the earliest ruling.  I gather Your Honor does not -- would not permit a witness to answer as to the contents of a statement that Ms. Stoeckley made to him in December of 1970, in Nashville.  I may say he had a conversation?

THE COURT:  Yes.

MR. SEGAL:  I have other matters.

MR. MURTAGH:  Our OBJECTION would be to questions in which photographs were shown because they are obviously going to be OBJECTED to.

MR. SEGAL:  There are no questions about the photographs of this witness anyway.

MR. MURTAGH:  Or any witness.

MR. SEGAL:  We will get to that.

(Bench Conference terminated.)


(Whereupon, CHARLES EDWARD UNDERHILL was recalled as a witness, and having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:)


D I R E C T  E X A M I N A T I O N  12:02 p.m.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Would you state your full name and address for the record, please, Mr. Underhill?
A  Certainly; Charles Edward Underhill; 2699 Lowell Avenue; Jacksonville; Florida 32205.
Q  Mr. Underhill, did you ever live in Nashville, Tennessee, in the year 1970, or '71?
A  Yes, sir; I certainly did.
Q  Would you tell us what were the years of your residence in Nashville?
A  1967 through 1973.
Q  In what particular part of town did you live in when you were in Nashville, particularly in the year 1970?
A  I lived over in the Belle Meade College area, which Belmont Boulevard runs parallel north and south to this college.  That is, I would say, two and a half miles from right downtown in Nashville, Tennessee.
Q  Could you tell us what kind of neighborhood that was in 1970?
A  Well, that is really hard to describe because it is just like any older neighborhood.  You get just the best of the first class citizen, you know, at this corner and then maybe the next corner, you have got what you call just plain-out trash.  I know it sounds kind of confusing, but it is a mediocre neighborhood.
Q  What was your address in 1970?
A  Well, I lived out on Franklin Road, which is, I think, it was 26 -- this sounds awful ridiculous.  I think it is 2615, I believe.
Q  Did you know Jane McCampbell who is now Jane Zillioux in 1970?
A  Yes, sir; I certainly did.
Q  Did she live anywhere near you?
A  Well, she lived about a mile and a half from where I lived on Portland Avenue.
Q  Did you happen to meet at any time in 1970, a lady by the name of Helena Stoeckley?
A  Yes, sir; I did.
Q  Would you tell us under what circumstances you came to meet her -- you know, when and where and how that took place?
A  Well, I met her at the corner of Belmont Boulevard and Portland Avenue in the latter part of September, 1970, in a ladies' shoe store named Bonnie Hudgins.  Bonnie and Helena were in the store whenever I walked in, and this is the first time I ever saw her.  Bonnie Hudgins, the lady that owned the store, introduced me to her.
Q  Did you know where Helena Stoeckley lived at that time?
A  No, sir; I did not.
Q  Did you ever find out where she lived?
A  Yes, sir; I certainly did.
Q  How did you learn that, and tell us if you ever had occasion to go to her apartment or her place of residence?
A  Well, I went to her apartment one time in the 15th or the 16th -- approximately the middle of December, 1970.  I had been out of town and had returned to Nashville and asked this lady, Jane, and Bonnie about Helena because she had been sick with hepatitis.
Q  You say that Helena had been sick with hepatitis?
A  Helena, yes.  They said, "Well, we haven't seen her for a couple of days.  I guess she may be mad at us for some unknown reason," so I walked down and knocked on her door and I heard a crying that was more than normal.  I knocked again and the voice that came said, "Get away."
     I said, "Helena, is that you in there crying?"  She said, "Get away.  I don't want to see nobody."  I said, "Helena, open this door and let me in."  She said, "Who is it?"  I said, "It is Underhill."  She said, "No, go away."  I said, "I am going to go down and get Bonnie and Jane to see if they can't talk to you or just see what is wrong with you or whatever, you know, the problem is."  She said, "No, don't get Bonnie."  She said, "I will let you in."  She came to the door and let me in, still crying, and sat down on the side of her bed.  Her bedroom was right in the very front of this particular apartment, and just sobbing, just like as if maybe a member of her family had just got run over or something very drastically (sic) had happened even to her best friend or something.
     I asked her, I said, "What in the Lord's world is wrong with you?"

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, we would OBJECT to anything the witness may have said.

THE COURT:  I assume that he does not propose to say what she said.  If you do, then don't say it.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did you find out from her what was the matter with her at that time?
A  No, sir; I didn't find out at that time just exactly what had her upset or what she was crying about; at this time, no, sir, I did not.
Q  Did you have a conversation with her, however, in that visit to her apartment?
A  Well, I did have a very short conversation at this particular time; yes, sir, I did.
Q  Did it relate to anything that happened in the State of North Carolina in Favetteville, North  Carolina?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Is that the one and only time that you had ever been in her place of residence?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you stay in contact with Helena Stoeckley after that particular episode in mid-December of 1970?
A  Yes, sir; I certainly did -- not by the means of seeking her out on a continuous basis, but I just saw her at various times because I visited Bonnie, this lady that had the shoe store, and Bonnie was working with Helena to help her in this drug program and so forth; so naturally, if Helena was there present all the time whenever I would visit Bonnie, naturally, I would usually see Helena when I would stop by to visit with Bonnie Hudgins.
Q  Did Helena Stoeckley eventually move away from Nashville, Tennessee?
A  Yes, sir; she did.
Q  Do you know when approximately the month or the season and what year that happened in?
A  Well, I am not sure.  I think she left there in the very first of '73, or the last of '72.  I would say in the winter area.
Q  Had you seen her off and on after that one time you were at her apartment in December of '70, until the time you left in '73?
A  No, sir; I did not see her at her apartment.  I was only there one time at her apartment.  I did see her in the area, you know, as the neighborhood at this particular block on Portland Avenue or inside of Bonnie Hudgins' store.
Q  Now, did you ever have any contact with Helena Stoeckley after '73 when she left Nashville?
A  Yes, sir; I did -- just by telephone -- I did not visit with her in person.  I was thinking about her, wondering what become of her, what happened to her, what her health turned out to be, and her dope problem -- whatever -- so, I made a long distance call from Jacksonville, Florida, to Nashville, Tennessee, and talked to Bonnie about how she was doing, how her mother was doing and so forth, then asked her about Helena, and she said, "Well, Red" -- said, "I thought I told you" --

MR. MURTAGH:  (Interposing)  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  When did this conversation take place with Bonnie Hudgins?
A  In '74.
Q  As a result of anything that you learned in that conversation, did you locate or find out where Helena Stoeckley was living?
A  Yes, sir; I talked to her on the telephone in Daytona Beach, Florida.
Q  You talked with Helena Stoeckley in Daytona?
A  Yes, sir; certainly did.
Q  And about what year was that?
A  That was in '74.
Q  Did you have occasion to talk to her some other time after that?
A  No, sir; I never have.
Q  Did you have occasion to see her last week here in this courthouse?
A  Yes, sir; I did.
Q  And where was that?
A  Well, just right on the seventh floor here in one of them rooms back there, room number -- whatever I said would be a guess.
Q  Now, did you have occasion to see Helena Stoeckley this weekend outside of the courthouse?
A  Yes, sir; I certainly did.
Q  All right, when was the first time you came in contact with Helena Stoeckley this weekend?
A  I guess it was Saturday, about 1:00 o'clock.
Q  In the morning or afternoon?
A  In the afternoon -- p.m.
Q  And where did you see Ms. Stoeckley?
A  When I first saw her, she was -- it looks like an old Travelodge Motel.  It's been renamed.
Q  It was here in downtown Raleigh?
A  Yes, sir; it was, but I just can't remember the name of the motel.  I think Journey's End or Journey's way or something of this nature.
Q  And where was she when you saw her at that motel?
A  She was in Room 104.
Q  What, if anything, did you observe about her condition at that time?
A  Well, she had a black eye --

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION, Your Honor.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, we would OBJECT to this on grounds of relevancy.

MR. SEGAL:  We'll get to the things she said very shortly.

THE COURT:  Well, I guess it is like trying to unring a bell.  He said she had a black eye before there was any objection.  I will let that stand.  Now, ask another question, and, Mr. Witness, I will let you wait until after the question is asked against the possibility that one of those lawyers out there may say "Objection."

THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  And if he does, then I have to rule before you can answer.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, did you observe anything else about her physical condition at that time that was unusual besides the black eye?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  In any way that you could observe, did she appear to be injured?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  Well, I believe he has answered that.  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did you have any conversation with Helena Stoeckley about how she came to be injured at that time?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, did you see Helena Stoeckley on Sunday; that is, yesterday?
A  Yes, sir; I certainly did.
Q  And where did you see her?  At that same motel?
A  No, sir; at the Hilton on -- I believe that's West Hillsborough.  Of course, I don't live here so I'm not that familiar with the streets.  I believe that's the street where the Hilton is.
Q  The Hilton Inn is not far from this courthouse right here.
A  Yes, sir; that's true.
Q  And how long did you spend with Helena Stoeckley?
A  Well, I spent all day Sunday with her.
Q  And at whose request was that?  Was that yours or hers?
A  Well, it was hers.
Q  Did she tell you why she wanted you to stay with her?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

MR. SEGAL:  I think it is unfair to leave the implication of something -- you know -- improper going on.  I'll make an Offer of Proof if Your Honor pleases.  I would like to be heard on this matter at the Bench --

THE COURT:  All right, come up.  I will hear your Offer of Proof.


B E N C H  C 0 N F E R E N C E

MR. SEGAL:  If Your Honor pleases, this witness will testify that her injuries -- that she was assaulted this weekend -- Ms. Stoeckley was assaulted not by him but by another person -- and that he will -- because she was in such fear from the assault, she asked him to stay with her because he is her friend.

THE COURT:  Where was her boyfriend?

MR. BLACKBURN:  It was her boyfriend.

MR. SEGAL:  It was not her boyfriend.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Wade Smith told me it was her boyfriend.

MR. SEGAL:  There was more than one assault.  Let me finish the Offer of Proof.  She was assaulted more than once.  There are at least two incidents over this weekend, one of which was her boyfriend, and we chased him away, and told him to get away and leave her alone.
     The other was by a person whom she claimed she did not know, who walked up and struck her.

THE COURT:  What's this got to do with this lawsuit?

MR. SEGAL:  As a result of that, she was in fear.  She asked Mr. Underhill to stay with her.  While he was staying with her -- and there is no sexual connotation or anything -- she said she knew the names of the people who committed the MacDonald murders.
     But when he said, "Why don't you tell them that in court," she offered the explanation of why she was afraid to say it in here.  Now she testified here when she was a witness that she did not know where she was or what happened that night or who she was with.
     She has made this statement.  She has said that she knew the names.  We are entitled to impeach her on that, Your Honor.  Nothing could be more central to her testimony than her claim she didn't know where she was or what happened at the MacDonald house.
     This man was with her at her request.  I want these questions as preliminary.  They are foundational that he wasn't there on some unreasonable basis -- because she was in fear.  He will also testify she was not under the influence of drugs, that she was sober when she said these things.
     I think it is about time we were allowed to get to that issue in this case.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, we would OBJECT totally on the grounds: one, it is already clear that she has been with the Defense team and the Defense witnesses all weekend.  We know that she, as you said this morning, has gone all over the lot on these things.  We don't think what happened or who assaulted her is relevant.  This goes right back to what you ruled this morning -- that those statements by Helena -- she has spoken for herself and anything she has said to anybody else ought to be excluded.

MR. SEGAL:  She says that she knows who committed the crimes and the Government stands here --

MR. BLACKBURN:  She has said that before.

MR. ANDERSON:  She is still available.

MR. SEGAL:  She did not.  When we asked her did she know what she was or who she was with --

MR.  ANDERSON:  (Interposing)  Now he is talking to the jury.

(Bench conference terminated.)


THE COURT:  I would like to hear what you have to say to the jury so let's don't all talk at once.  Have you been talking to the jury?

THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir; I asked them if they was ready for a rest home.  I certainly did.  I know they are awful tired and give out.  I know I shouldn't have said it but I did.

THE COURT:  Look at me, please.

THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  Don't you say anything else to this jury unless it is in response to a question asked by some lawyer appearing in the case.

THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.


B E N C H  C O N F F R E N C E

MR. BLACKBURN:  Regardless of whether she said this yesterday, from her testimony that you read from her it is clear that she said before that she knew who did it and another time she said she only suspected that she knew who did it.  This goes right back -- flipflopping back and forth.
     She has testified in court.  It is a matter of her own credibility.

MR. SEGAL:  I thought that part of the basis of Your Honor's excluding the statements made to Gaddis was you were not certain in your mind at that time whether she was under the influence of drugs or not or whether what her condition was.
     Now, this witness -- we will question him on this thing, but I was only trying to lay my first step foundation as to why he was with her -- her fear.  That is critical to explain why a witness has withheld information.  If she lives in fear, that explains her equivocation.  That explains why she vacillates a little bit.  But here, knowing why she is in this town, the explanation has to do with the Government, Your Honor, as to why she is afraid to make her statement and they don't want to hear that.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, I would also say in response to that: it is not just on the basis of the drugs but also on the basis of trustworthiness.  She has gone both ways on this issue.

MR. SEGAL:  That is the weight -- for the jury to decide.

MR. BLACKBURN:  The Judge has already ruled on that.

THE COURT:  All right, take your seat back out there.

(Bench conference terminated.)

(Pause.)

THE COURT:  Members of the jury, we have another one of these knotty evidentiary questions that has come up.  We let you go Friday afternoon so you would not have to be cooped up while they were being decided, but another one of a similar kind -- not the same one, but a similar kind -- has come up.
     So I am going to let you retire a little early today and come back today at 2:30, while we go into this battle here that has arisen.
     Let me say that while it may appear to you that there is a lot of foot dragging in this case, these things are important; and when points are raised, they are doing so in the discharge of their duties and responsibilities to leave no stone unturned because the case is important.
     Then you say additionally that you are really not wasting all this much time because except for the matters which were handled in your absence Friday afternoon, and the rulings which had been made subsequent to that, you were perhaps looking about two days of testimony in the face, which you will not have to bear now.
     So, it is not -- I just say this by way of letting you know that it is not a waste of time.  It is important.  So I am going to let you retire now and go quietly to your lunch, and come back today at 2:30 and we will try to have these matters resolved so it'll run a little smoother when you do got back.
     Remember, in the meantime, you don't talk about the case among yourselves or with others.  Don't let anything come to your attention from any outside source concerning this case until you have heard it all.  Keep open minds about it.  Come back at 2:30, please.

(The jury exits at 12:26 p.m.)


(The following proceedings were held in the absence of the jury and alternates.)

THE COURT:  Now, gentlemen, with the jury having retired and in their absence, under the duty imposed upon the Court under Pule 104 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, the Court will permit this witness now to be examined on voir dire as to the admissibility of the evidence, as to which there has been an Offer of Proof here in the bench conference.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  All right, Mr. Underhill?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Let's go back if we may to the first motel you saw Ms. Stoeckley at on Sunday.  Now, when you saw her there, you say she had a black eye?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did she have any other injuries at that time that you could see?
A  When I first saw her, only the black eye.
Q  That was in room 104 you saw her?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Was anybody else around at that time, in her room or with her?
A  There was a lady there -- Ms. Rouder -- Wendy Rouder.
Q  An attorney that works with me?
A  Yes, that's true.
Q  And was anybody else around at that point?
A  Well, her boyfriend that she was supposed to get married to, Ernest -- whatever his name is.
Q  I think his name is Ernest Davis?
A  Ernest, or something.
Q  What was her emotional state -- what was Helena Stoeckley's emotional state at that time?
A  Well, she seemed to be very, very upset, and I guess probably five to seven minutes after I first saw her I went out -- I was outside at the drink machine and Ernest -- this fellow Ernest  -- came running out there, "Oh, my lord, she's trying to this, trying to do that."
     So I had a bottle of Coke, and I set it down and I run in there, and she had fell.  She told me she had fell in the bathroom.
     Anyway, she just bled all over the bed, and it had dripped from the bathroom to the bed.
Q  Did you question her about that injury -- whether she'd got it by falling or whether it happened some other way?
A  Well, she told me she fell, and she was in there by herself at this particular time.  She was by herself.  There was no one else in there with her.
     And she -- you know -- I didn't question her about her falling, because she had a couple of things she was trying to rinse out on the shower-tub, you know, and so --

THE COURT:  (Interposing)  Where was she bleeding from?

THE WITNESS:  From the nose, sir.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Now, let me ask you, did she move later on that afternoon to the Hilton Inn down at the corner of Hillsborough?
A  Yes, sir, she did.
Q  And do you know why she moved out there?
A  Well, the lady from the motel said that she didn't want her staying there any longer.
Q  And did you hear why -- did you talk to the lady at the motel about that?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  What did the lady at the motel say?
A  She just said she couldn't have this kind of carrying ons, you know, at the -- that's a country saying -- at the motel, and she preferred under all the circumstances -- she preferred Helena not to be there in general.
Q  Did she tell you what the circumstances were -- the carrying on was -- that took place?
A  Well, one of the maids roported to her that in the room whenever she passed through the hallway there was -- you know, she was hollering and carrying on like they was in a, you know, an argument, and a slight tussle, or something of this nature.
Q  That is, talking about Helena and Ernest Davis?
A  Right; yes, sir.
Q  All right, sir, she then moved out because the management asked her to leave that motel?
A  Well, after this maid brought this to her attention, he and her was in the swimming pool and she had on a full-length shirt and a pair of cut-off jeans and he had on a pair of cut-off jeans and no shirt.  Now, I was not there to see any of this, but the lady told me that it appeared that he was ducking her under the water and holding her under the water -- this Ernest was.
Q  All right, as a result of all this --

MR. SEGAL:  (Interposing)  Your Honor, I really resent the Government's suggestion -- we are trying to lay a foundation of the context -- that Mr. Murtagh has to carry on like this is ridiculous.

THE COURT:  How is he carrying on?

MR. SEGAL:  I think leaning back and laughing about the witness' testimony.  If I were a witness, I would resent it very much being dragged into Court and being made to come back --

THE COURT:  (Interposing)  All right, now, look, you just sit down and ask your questions.  That hasn't anything to do with it.  There is no jury here.  The rules of evidence don't apply, and I will let you ask your questions, but that is it.

MR. SEGAL:  I appreciate that, Your Honor.  I want it understood that one rule still applied even when the jury was not still here and that was a rule called decorum, and I resent the treatment of a witness being laughed at.

THE COURT:  I will just say that I had not observed any decorum which was unprofessional, and I think you are mistaken to say so.  I think you are reading more into it than it was.  Go ahead with your questions.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Ms. Stoeckley went over to the Hilton Inn.  Did you take her over there or do you know who took her over there?
A  Well, I rode in the vehicle that Ms. Rouder drove over there, which Helena Stoeckley and I were both in the vehicle.  I went because Helena asked me to go.
Q  Why did she want you along, Mr. Underhill?
A  Well, she told Ms. Rouder that she trusted me and that she would feel much safer if I was in the near whereabouts.  As possible -- the adjoining room, if possible, would even be better  -- she felt more safer (sic) if I was around.
Q  Did she tell you what she was worried about -- what made her think that she needed to be concerned about her safety?
A  Well, the girl was just scared to death -- not just yesterday afternoon but last night and this morning -- not one time but many times.  She has repeated time after time that her life is not worth five cents out on the streets after this now.  She is scared to death.
Q  These statements about Helena being scared -- they were made at the Hilton Inn last night and during the night and in the morning?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Were you staying in a room next to hers?
A  Adjoining room; yes, sir.
Q  Did you talk to her about what she was afraid about -- why she thought her life was not worth anything on the streets here?
A  Well, I don't know who the scum of the earth scoundrels could be that she is referring to.  I would like to knew them because I have got an axe handle that would fit their head, I believe, but anyway, that is another story.

THE COURT:  I did not hear it the first time.  You have got a what?

THE WITNESS:  An axe handle that I ought to hit them in the head with.  The way she talked about them, she is scared to death -- you know, I don't know who these people could be, Your Honor, folks, but she is scared to death that there are some many people somewhere that said that her life was not worth five cents once she leaves this building and gets out on the streets.  Now, who these people are, I can't tell you because I don't know.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Let me ask you this: did you talk with her last night and this morning about whether she knew who the persons were who killed the MacDonald family on February 17th, 1970?
A  Well, let me say this, sir: last night and again this morning, she told me very distinctly and very plainly, she said, "I can name three people."
Q  Did she say whether she would do it or not in Court?
A  She said she would not because it would mean automatically death for her if she did.
Q  She was talking about the names of the persons who killed the MacDonald family when she was saying that she could name three people?
A  She did not say identically as these three people that I am talking about done this, but the questions and the conversation --
Q  (Interposing)  The subject --

THE COURT:  (Interposing)  Wait a minute.  Let him answer the question now.  It is a voir dire.

THE WITNESS:  The conversation between her and I, you would not have to be too bright to realize who she is talking about.

THE COURT:  I don't want to get into this thing, but it is my responsibility to make this ruling, and I want this witness' testimony and not that of counsel on the basis of which I make my ruling.

MR. SEGAL:  I agree, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Just ask the next question, then.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did this morning she mention to you the name of a man by the name of Greg Mitchell?
A  Yes, sir; she did.
Q  What did she tell you about Greg Mitchell?
A  She made reference to Greg Mitchell that some years back -- and she didn't name the year and I don't know myself -- that the Government started a drug program pertaining to people in service and she said that this Mitchell fellow was the first one that they treated in this drug program and he was in Time magazine or U. S. News or something and this was at Fort Bragg.
Q  Did she in any way connect Greg Mitchell with Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald, the Defendant in this case?
A  Yes, sir.  She said that Dr. MacDonald knew this Mitchell fellow.
Q  Did she tell you in what way Dr. MacDonald knew Greg Mitchell or had come in contact with Greg Mitchell?
A  In this treating of this program, the particular ward or hospital or whatever they had down there, I don't have any idea.
Q  Did she tell you that Greg Mitchell was or was not a friend of hers?
A  Oh, yes, sir.  She wears a ring on her right hand that he gave her many years ago.  She was engaged to him to get married at one time she told me, so she must have knew him pretty well.

MR. SEGAL:  That is what we propose to offer, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Do you have any questions?

MR. MURTAGH:  Yes, sir.


C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N  12:37 p.m.

BY MR. MURTAGH:
Q  Mr. Underhill, let me ask you: after you left Court on Friday afternoon, where did you go next?
A  I went to the Downtowner Hotel.
Q  Okay.  Who had arranged for you to stay at the Downtowner?
A  Who?
Q  Yes.
A  Well, I guess the defense here.
Q  Were the other witnesses staying at the Downtowner?
A  Other witnesses?
Q  Yes; Ms. Zillioux who was here?
A  I am the only one who stayed over this weekend.  I think everybody else went to their respective homes, you know.
Q  In other words, let me ask you: as of Friday or Friday morning, were the other witnesses staying at the Downtowner to your knowledge?
A  What other witnesses?
Q  Let's just take Ms. Zillioux, for example?
A  Oh, she was not there Saturday --

MR. SEGAL:  (Interposing)  Pardon me.  If the Government wants an answer, I can state exactly the answer to that question.  If you want the answer from the witness, that's something else.  Do you want the answer to that?

MR. MURTAGH:  Your Honor, I was questioning the witness.

THE COURT:  He prefers to get it from the witness.

MR. MURTAGH:  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  All right.

BY MR. MURTAGH:
Q  Let me ask you: at any rate, Mr. Underhill, Ms. Stoeckley was not staying at the Downtowner on Saturday morning; is that correct?
A  I saw her late Friday afternoon over there.  She made the remark that she was staying there.
Q  What was the name of the motel other than the Hilton that you saw her at this weekend?
A  It is on North McDowell here.

THE COURT:  Journey's End.  Go on.

THE WITNESS:  Journey's End; yeah.

BY MR. MURTAGH:
Q  My question is, Mr. Underhill, under what circumstances you came to go from your motel, the Downtowner, over to the motel, the Journey's End, where Ms. Stoeckley was staying? How did that come about?
A  Well, I was staying at the Downtowner and they were not open Sunday for anyone to get anything to eat.  Old Red right here was on foot.  I seeked the nearest restaurant.  I walked to the restaurant adjoining the motel, and in there, I heard the name "Helena Stoeckley" mentioned, and she was staying there.
Q  That is basically my question, Mr. Underhill.  Who told you where Helena Stoeckley was staying?
A  Who?
Q  Yes, sir.
A  My friend, I have no idea.  It was just somebody sitting there next to me while I was having breakfast.  That consisted of a waffle and two eggs and coffee.

BY MR. MURTAGH:
Q  All right, so you went over to this motel where Helena Stoeckley was staying, is that correct?
A  Not then at that minute, I did not.  I walked back to the Downtowner and then went back later.
Q  Somehow or another you eventually got to the motel where she was staying?
A  Certainly, I eventually went over there.
Q  Who else was present with Ms. Stoeckley when you arrived at the motel?
A  Ernest.
Q  When did Ms. Rouder come?
A  She and I went together.
Q  Oh, Ms. Rouder took you to the motel?

MR. SEGAL:  The second time.

BY MR. MURTAGH:
Q  Is that correct?
A  That's right, yes.
Q  What was Ms. Rouder's purpose in going to see Helena Stoeckley, if you know?
A  I don't know; I didn't ask her.
Q  Would it be accurate to say that at least while you were there at this motel where Helena Stoeckley was present, some member of the Defense team, either an attorney or an assistant, was with Ms. Stoockley or in the vicinity?
A  Well, Ms. Rouder was there.  She was -- she drove the car -- carried -- give me a lift by there and Helena Stoeckley asked to see her.
     Then she went into her room on the request of Helena Stoeckley.
Q  After this business where Helena falls in the bathroom and has a bloody nose, she said to you something about her life was not worth five cents as a result of what was said in court on Friday, is that correct?
A  No, sir; you got it -- undoubtedly you got it all turned around, my friend.
Q  Yes, I do.
A  She said last night and again this morning to me, her life would not be worth five cents out on the street.  She did not relate back to me any particular day as of Friday, Saturday or this morning, or whatever.
Q  Okay, then would it be correct to say, Mr. Underhill, that in terms of what Helena Stoeckley said to you, she did not relate that statement -- her life was not worth five cents -- to anything, is that correct?
A  I'm so sorry I have to ask you again -- as to anything -- please repeat that again.  I'm so sorry I'm holding everybody up, but I'd like to hear it again, and maybe a little --
Q  (Interposing)  All right.  My original question was, is it correct that Helena's statement --
A  (Interposing)  Excuse me just a minute; are you reading that off, or look at me so maybe I could pick it up better -- straight in the eye here.
Q  Surely.  My question, Mr. Underhill, was: is it correct that Helena's statement -- "My life is not worth five cents out on the street" -- relates back to what she testified to on Friday in court, is that correct?
A  Like I just said, sir, she did not say what she might have said Friday.  That could have been for Saturday.  Maybe it could have been for yesterday; maybe it's for today.  I am just stating exactly word for word what she said to me.
Q  And that's all she said, is that correct, in that particular time of your conversation?
A  That her life would not be worth five cents out on the street, because, said, "They'll kill me for sure."
Q  Okay; that's the entirety of the conversation at that part, is that correct?
A  Well, she made that statement more than one time.
Q  Do you know whether Helena Stoeckley has ever been an informant in drug cases?
A  Well, I cannot prove it.  I was only told this last week.
Q  Now, she said, with respect to Greg Mitchell, that Dr. MacDonald knew Greg Mitchell; is that correct?
A  Yes, sir; she said that this morning.
Q  Do you know that to be true?
A  Sir, I have no idea.  Your word -- your guess is as good as mine, or whatever.  I don't know this man, but I do know her.
Q  Okay.  Is that all she said?  She said, "I could name three people."  What was that in reference to, as far as what Helena told you?
A  Well, we was talking about the death of Dr. MacDonald's family, and from the conversation pertaining to this man's wife and two children -- so whenever she said last night and again this morning, "I can name three people, but I doubt if I live if I do," you know, and I'll tell everybody here I begged her to come in here and do it -- begged her to come in here and do it.
Q  Now, one of these three people that she could name -- is that Greg Mitchell one of those?
A  Sir.  I don't know.  She did not name three people.  She just said three people.
Q  Do you know what people in the past Helena Stoeckley has named in connection with this case?
A  Well, the only name that I am familiar with is Mazzadozy (sic) or Mazzaroozy (sic) or some kind of, you know, funny name.  I know it is not Irish, but -- anyway, she is deathly scared of this man.
     She said that -- she just fringes (sic) whenever you mention his name.
Q  What was Helena's emotional state during these times that you here talking to her?
A  Calm to just nervous and upset; just back and forth.
Q  Was she crying at any time?
A  On a couple of occasions I remember tears, you know, her eyes watering; but as, you know, continuous crying, no.

MR. MURTAGH:  That's all, Your Honor.

MR. SEGAL:  May I, Your Honor -- one matter raised by the Government.

THE COURT:  Yes, sir.


R E D I R E C T  E X A M I N A T I O N  12:47 p.m.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did she tell you about someone hitting her in the nose?
A  Well, no.  No one hit her in the nose.  Her nose injury came whenever she fell and she was by herself whenever that happened.
Q  No, I'm asking you about anything else --
A  (Interposing)  But she got a shiner up here where somebody, she said -- whenever she -- at this Downtowner on a Friday evening or Saturday morning -- I didn't ask her just what hour -- whether it was daylight or dark.
     But anyway, she went to get some ice, and she said somebody comes there and hit her in the face with his fist.
Q  That's how she got hit in the eye and got her black eye?
A  Yes, sir.  That happened at the Downtowner.

MR. SEGAL:  All right.  I have nothing further of this witness, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Anything else?


R E C R O S S  E X A M I N A T I O N  12:48 p.m.

BY MR. MURTAGH:
Q  Mr. Underhill, did you see her struck?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Do you know who did it?
A  No, air, I do not.
Q  Did she say who did it?
A  No, sir.
Q  Ernest Davis, her boyfriend -- did he subsequently leave town to your knowledge?
A  To my knowledge, he left Sunday on a bus to go to Walladoola (sic), South Carolina, or someplace.
Q  Do you know who made the arrangements for that?
A  Who made the arrangements?
Q  Uh-huh (yes).
A  Well, he didn't have no money to go home on, and his only source was to borrow it from a total stranger, and that's me.
     And I loaned it to him in good hopes and faith that he will return it one day, because my money's hard to come by.

MR. MURTAGH:  That's all, Your Honor.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you; you may step down.  Your Honor, in regard --

(Witness excused.)

THE WITNESS:  (Interposing)  Thank you, Your Honor.

MR. SEGAL:  -- to this matter of proof, I want to make it clear that this is taken in the context that we intend to call an additional witness with more explicit further statements given at the same time in which Ms. Stoeckley makes further admission as to her knowledge and who's involved in these crimes.
     She has stated in the other statements why she was afraid to tell it here in court -- why she refused to tell it in court.

THE COURT:  I will let you call that witness, too.

MR. SEGAL:  Well, does Your Honor want us to do that on voir dire also, or may I not call that witness --

THE COURT:  (Interposing)  Well, yes.  I am going to require anything that is purported to come from this Stoeckley witness to be done in advance of the jury's hearing it.
     Right now, we are going to take a recess until 2:30.

(This proceeding was recessed at 12:49 p.m to reconvene at 2:30 p.m., this same day.)