Trial Transcripts

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THE COURT:  Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, this is the case of United States against Jeffrey R. Macdonald.
MR. SEGAL:  Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Call your witness.

MR. SEGAL:  Mr. Posey, just take the stand if you will.

(Whereupon, WILLIAM EDWARD POSEY was recalled as a witness, and having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:)


D I R E C T  E X A M I N A T I O N  3:36 p.m.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Would you state your full name and present address, please?
A  William Edward Posey, Pell City, Alabama.
Q  Mr. Posey, how long have you lived in Alabama?
A  Well, off and on all my life.
Q  Back in 1970, were you living in Fayetteville, North Carolina?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How long had you been living in Fayetteville at that time?
A  About a year.
Q  What did you do for a living?
A  Paint -- worked in the paint field.
Q  What was your address in, say, oh, November or December of 1969?
A  Clark Street -- 1108 Clark Street.
Q  What particular section of Fayetteville was that?
A  It was in the Haymount section.  I wasn't into painting then.
Q  What were you doing back in 1970?
A  I was working in air-conditioning construction.
Q  Who was your employer at that time?
A  Bass Air-Conditioning.
Q  And they were located in Fayetteville?
A  Yes,sir.  They still are.
Q  Did you come to meet or see a woman by the name of Helena Stoeckley in the end of 1969?
A  Yes,sir.  She was my next door neighbor.
Q  When did she move in next door to you?
A  Sometime in December, somewhere in there -- January.
Q  December, 1969, or January of '70?
A  Yes, sir; somewhere in there.
Q  What address was she living at?
A  I don't know the exact number.  It was either 1106 or 1110.  I don't know the exact address.  It was right across from my front door.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to talk to her prior to February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir; a lot of times.
Q  What was the nature of your relationship?  Were you on good terms, bad terms?
A  We were just friends, neighbors.
Q  By the way, were you married at that time, Mr. Posey?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Are you still married to the same woman?
A  No, sir.
Q  You are not?  In 1970, what was the name of your wife?
A  Myra.
Q  And were you living with your wife, Myra, at that time?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, did you ever notice anything about the way Ms. Stoeckley dressed from the time she moved in up and through February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.  She dressed like, you know, like a hippie.  She had her own style, her own type of dress.
Q  Her own style?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  All right.  Could you describe for us what her style looked like?
A  Well, she wore a white hat a lot.  That was part of her dress.  She wore some white boots  -- patent leather-type boots.  She wore a purple-type of a blouse quite a bit.  She would go barefooted a lot of times.
Q  When would she go barefoot?
A  The only time she would wear her boots was like when it would rain or something like that or when she was going out, you know, like to something special or something.
Q  And how high would those white boots, you say, go on her legs?
A  I guess about three inches below her knees; somewhere in there.
Q  Now, this hat you mentioned -- I want to show you a picture if I can locate it.  This has been marked as Defendant Exhibit 87 previously.  I ask you to take a look at this hat and tell me whether it resembles anything you have seen before?
A  Yes, sir.  It resembles hers.  It is the floppy-type here like hers was.
Q  Now, what color was Ms. Stoeckley's hair from the time you first met her up and through February 17,1970?
A  It was brunette, you know.  But she wore a blonde wig quite a bit too, with her hat.
Q  And the blonde wig -- what length was that hair on the wig?
A  It come to about right here (indicating).
Q  About shoulder length?
A  Yes, sir.  But it didn't flop out, you know.  It hung straight.  It didn't go up on her shoulders, you know.  She would wear it down.
Q  You mean straight down?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  While we are talking about that, let me ask you to take a look at another picture.  Let me show you, please, the Exhibit marked Defendant 89, and ask you whether this particular drawing by an artist represents anything you have seen before?
A  Yes, sir, except for the hat.  It was more -- you know, it wasn't rounded like that.
Q  A little more square on the top of the crown of the hat?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Aside from that, what does the picture look like to you?
A  It looks like Helena back then.  It resembles her a great deal.
Q  You say that the hat and the hair -- wearing the boots when she did -- was that part of her trademark?
A  Yes, sir.  Back then everybody that was referred to as a hippie had their own little trade (sic) you know, their own little dress code, you know, that they went by.
Q  Did you see Helena Stoeckley with any of her friends or acquaintances?
A  Yes.  I seen a lot of her friends.
Q  Did you have occasion to know whether any particular people were seen with her more often than others -- people that she was more friendly with than others?
A  Yes, sir.  She had -- well, like, you know, a boyfriend.  He was with her a great deal.
Q  All right.  If you would, I would like you to take a look at the other pictures lying up here on the witness table: the one that has been marked D-90 for identification, and ask whether or not --

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, we would OBJECT on publishing that photograph to the jury.

THE COURT:  He would prefer that if you ask him about that, you don't show it to the jury at the same time.  Just put it over with the back to the jury.

MR. SEGAL:  I beg your pardon, Your Honor.  Yes.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Let me show you D-90, and ask whether this depicts any person that you have ever seen before?
A  It resembles her boyfriend, you know.  He wore a cross all the time.  He didn't wear it loose.  He wore it tied to his neck.  But his hair was short and everything.  He was in the military.
Q  Does the face on this particular drawing -- does that face resemble the man you say was her boyfriend?
A  A  lot, but not so much the nose.  But the eyes and the face and everything does, and the hair.
Q  You also say this picture depicts a cross worn around the neck of the man.  Does that resemble the cross that you saw or along the style of the cross you saw on the neck of the man you saw with Helena?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you know the name of that particular person?
A  I can't -- it was Jim -- I can't remember, sir.
Q  If I were to suggest a last name, would that help you at all?

MR. MURTAGH:  OBJECTION.

MR. SEGAL:  I will give him a list of ten.

THE COURT:  I will make you book that it will.  Go ahead and ask the question.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  If you don't remember, I won't ask you.  Maybe it will come to you later on, Mr. Posey; all right?  Now, did you have occasion to see Helena Stoeckley on the early morning hours of February 17, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where were you on that morning?
A  In my home -- my house -- next to hers.
Q  And what time did you see Helena Stoeckley?
A  It was between 4:00 and 4:30 in the morning.
Q  In the a.m.?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How did you happen to get up at that time?
A  Well, I was going to the rest room, which I have done for years, around the same time, between 4:00 and 5:00 o'clock every morning.  I go to the rest room.  And I was going and I heard a car whip in.  I went to the door to look because I had been having trouble with them blocking my driveway and stuff like this.  So, I went to the door.  She was out of the car going to her apartment.  And the two girls she lived with were inside painting the apartment.  She was in a hurry to get to her apartment.
Q  Let's back up a second.  First of all, where is this driveway located that you heard the car whip in?
A  Well, my front door -- I had my front door and my porch was like this.  There was a fence here -- a chain-link fence.  Her apartment was right straight across, about maybe 15 or 20 foot where you went in to her apartment.  It was just a little-bitty efficiency apartment.
Q  Now, did you see the automobile?  Could you tell what kind of car that was?
A  Yes, sir.  It was a Mustang.
Q  A  Mustang?
A  Yes, sir.  It had been over there before.
Q  You had seen that car at that house on more than one occasion?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Besides being a Mustang, do you know by any chance what model Mustang it might have been?
A  It was one of those Mach Mustangs.
Q  M-a-c-h in Mach?  A  Mach One?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you recall the color of that particular car?
A  Yes.  It was blue.
Q  You say Ms. Stoeckley got out of the car.  Was there anybody else in the car as far as you could see?
A  There was some other people in there.  But I could not see who they were.
Q  Could you tell whether there was one person still in the car or more than one person?
A  There was at least two because they were laughing and giggling and everything.  There was noise, you know, conversation.
Q  Coming from the car?
A  Yes, sir, as they backed out.
Q  You saw Ms. Stoeckley, you say, going in the direction of her house at that time?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How was she dressed?
A  She had her purple thing on.  But I did not remember -- I know she had her purple thing on.  But I can't remember what else she had on.  She had something in her hand.  She was in a hurry to get in, you know.  I didn't take note.
Q  Let me ask you: you say this purple thing, was that a vest or a blouse you are talking about?
A  It was a blouse.
Q  A blouse?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Could you see her hair at that time?
A  I didn't take note of it.  I didn't take note of her hair.
Q  Are you saying you do or you don't know whether she had the blonde wig on?
A  No, sir; I don't.
Q  What did she have in her hand?
A  I don't know.  I couldn't say.
Q  Did you see what she had on her legs?
A  No, sir.
Q  What was it, if anything, that attracted your attention to that whole scene that made it stand out in your mind in some way?
A  Well, her girlfriends were painting the apartment at that time of the night.
Q  At 4:30 in the morning or 5:00 o'clock in the morning?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you mention that to anybody after you saw Helena come home at that time and the painting going on next door?
A  Well, the next day -- we were working at Southern Pines.  It was on the other side of Fort Bragg.  When I was going to work, the man that I rode with, as we were coming through Fort Bragg, he told me that there had been a murder there that night, you know, and that a band of hippies was supposed to have done it.  I mentioned that I had seen my neighbor come in, you know, that morning; but other than that, that is the only thing I ever mentioned.
Q  Did you see Helena Stoeckley wear the floppy hat, blonde wig, and white boots after that night?
A  No, sir.
Q  Or after that date, February 17, 1970?
A  No, sir; she didn't wear them at all.
Q  Did you ever see her wear those particular items?
A  No, sir; never again.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to ask her what she had done with those items?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

MR. SEGAL:  It is offered for impeachment purposes on the subject of the disposition of the items.

THE COURT:  Did you ask her?

THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  He says "yes."

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did she tell you what had happened to the hat and the wig and the boots?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did she say?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Do you recall the day on which the funeral for the MacDonald family was held at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, February, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you see Ms. Stoeckley on that day?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What, if anything, did you see her doing?
A  Well, she had dressed in a long black dress and she wore a black veil over her face, and she had went and got some of the wreaths like you put on a grave, you know, and put them all along her door.  She sat there all day like she was in mourning all day long.
Q  How many wreaths did you say she got?
A  I don't know.  There were several.  I didn't count them.
Q  Had you ever seen her dressed in black with a veil before?
A  No, sir; never.
Q  Did you ever see her display funeral wreaths in her house before?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to ask her why she had dressed that way and put out those funeral wreaths?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever talk to her about that?
A  Not about the wreaths and stuff; no, sir.
Q  How about her dressing in black and wearing the veil?  Did you talk to her about that?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you ever ask Ms. Stoeckley whether she had been at the MacDonald house on February 17th, 1970?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did Ms. Stoeckley remain living at the house next door to you very long after that?
A  No, sir.
Q  About how long after February 17th, 1970, did she move elsewhere?
A  It was just a few days -- a week, maybe.  It wasn't long.
Q  Did you thereafter see her in Fayetteville any place?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where did you see her?
A  Up at Haymount where everybody used to hang out at.  I saw her up there one night.
Q  Did you have some conversations with her in Haymount?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  About February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did she have occasion -- were you still residing at the same address at that time?
A  No, sir; I wasn't.
Q  Where had you moved to?
A  I had moved to another section up above Haymount over off Fort Bragg Road.
Q  Why had you moved and changed your address?
A  Well, I didn't feel like -- see, Haymount, where I was living on Clark Street was mostly hippies all around.  I just didn't feel like I was safe there, and I moved.
Q  Did you have some discussions with Ms. Stoeckley about your address and where you were living?
A  She wanted to know what my new address was, but I didn't tell her, you know.  I told her a phony one.
Q  Do you know of any reason why she wanted to know where you were living?

MR. MURTAGH:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did she tell you why she wanted to know where you were living?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  What had been the conversation -- what was the last conversation about you had had before you moved -- the last conversation with Ms. Stoeckley -- what was the subject of that conversation?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  I will let him tell the subject.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Tell us what the subject of that conversation was?
A  About the MacDonald murder and the morning I had seen her come in.
Q  Had you told her that you had seen her coming home that morning?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What, if anything, did she say to you when you told her that you had seen her arrive home -- did you tell her the time you had seen her?
A  Yes, sir.  Well, when I told her, she acted real nervous.

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  Don't answer the question until there has been a ruling when there has been an OBJECTION.  The OBJECTION is SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Were you called and testified as a witness at the military proceedings in this case in August of 1970?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And after you testified at the proceedings, did anything happen to you or to your home?
A  Yes, sir.  About a day, or two later, my house was broken into one night.
Q  Did you make a complaint to the police about that?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  As a result of that, did you do anything else about your address or where you lived?
A  Yes, sir.  I moved out of state.
Q  You moved out of state?  Where did you move to?
A  Back to Alabama.
Q  Now, during the period of time that you knew Helena Stoeckley, did you ever have occasion to hear her talk about the subject of witchcraft?
A  Yes, sir; quite a few times.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to see her do anything which she said was related to witchcraft?
A  Yes, sir.  One time, she made a love potion for my sister-in-law and her boyfriend.
Q  Did you see her engaged in any kind of ceremonies or procedures in regard to the use of a cat?

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, we would OBJECT to this on relevancy.

THE COURT:  Well, I will OVERRULE the OBJECTION.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Yes, Mr. Posey, go ahead.
A  They killed a cat one time when they were having one of their seance-type things.  They killed a cat for sacrifice.
Q  Who is the "they" you are referring to?  Is it Ms. Stoeckley?
A  Yes, and her friends and Paul Bowman's wife.  Paul Bowman's wife was like the head of them.
Q  The last thing I want to talk to you about is this picture I asked you before to take a look at.  That man, you say, was a boyfriend or the boyfriend at that time of Helena Stoeckley?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you know what he did for a living or an occupation?
A  He was in the Army.
Q  You say he was in the Army?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How did you know that?
A  Just from, you know, conversation with him.
Q  Did you ever -- now that I have brought it up again, have you thought of the name of that person?  Has it come to your attention again?
A  He was parked in the alley the night --

THE COURT:  (Interposing)  He wants to know if you remember his name.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  The name of that man?
A  No.
Q  Does the name "Allen" sound familiar to you?
A  No.
Q  I want to show you another picture.  Oh, before I show you that, did you ever see a black man with Helena and her other friends visiting at the house next to you?
A  Yes, sir; a couple of times.
Q  Was that a young man, a middle-aged man, an older man?
A  He was about 20, I guess, somewhere in there.  He wasn't old.
Q  I want to show you a drawing and ask whether this resembles anyone you have ever seen before.

(Defendant Exhibit 91 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Let me show you for your own vision only at this time an artist drawing marked Defendant Exhibit 91.

(Witness examines exhibit.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  I will ask you to examine that and tell me whether that depicts a person that you may or may not have seen in 1970.
A  You know -- the only thing -- I never looked at his face.  I always looked at the way he was dressed because the way he was dressed was different, but I can't say that it looked like him in the face because I didn't really ever take -- you know -- note of his face that much.
Q  What about the dress of this particular man?  What did you notice about that?
A  He wore a jacket -- you know -- it had stripes on it -- you know -- but it was like a Confederate-type jacket.  It was --
Q  (Interposing)  When you say a jacket, was it any particular type of jacket?

THE COURT:  Were you through?

THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I'm sorry.

THE COURT:  I thought he was still answering the question.

MR. SEGAL:  I beg your pardon.

THE WITNESS:  I was through.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  I wanted to ask you if you could tell us anything about what type of jacket it was.
A  It was a military -- you know -- type jacket.
Q  What color was it supposedly?
A  It wasn't green.  It was kind of -- I don't know what kind -- the grayish type of color.  But he always dressed real neat, and then he put that jacket on.  That's why I noticed him.
Q  Did the jacket have any insignia or markings on it of any sort?
A  Sergeant's stripes on the sleeves of it.
Q  How many stripes were there; do you recall?
A  No, sir; there were several I think.
Q  How often did you see that particular -- the man you are talking about -- the man who wore this military type jacket with the stripes on it?  How often did you see him around the house where Ms. Stoeckley lived?
A  I only seen him a few times around.
Q  Did you see Helena Stoeckley here last week?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to see her at that time and talk to her?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  All right, I have no further questions at this time of this witness, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right, will there be any cross-examination of this witness?

MR. BLACKBURN:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  We will take a recess then and we will come back at 4:15, members of the jury.  Don't talk about the case.  I know it is a little early for your recess, but it is a little late for the court reporter.  So, we'll come back at 4:15.  Don't talk about the case.

(The proceeding;was recessed at 3:58 p.m., to reconvene at 4:15 p.m., this same day.)


F U R T H E R  P R O C E E D I N G S  4:15 p.m.

(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)

THE COURT:  All right, any questions on cross-examination of this witness?

MR. BLACKBURN:  Yes, sir, Your Honor.

(Whereupon, WILLIAM EDWARD POSEY, the witness on the stand at the time of recess, resumed the stand, and testified further as follows:)


C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N  4:16 p.m.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  Mr. Posey, the night that you got up to go to the men's room -- the restroom -- you do this about every night; is this right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  At between about 4:00 and 5:00 o'clock?
A  Yes, sir; I have been doing it ever since before I can remember.
Q  Now, this particular time, do you recall whether or not you looked at your clock or watch or anything?
A  No; I didn't look at my clock -- you know -- I just know that I get up around that time between 4:00 and 5:00 -- you know -- and go to the bathroom.  I mean people that has known me all my life -- you know -- I didn't sit there and specifically look, no, but see I had to be at work.

THE COURT:  That is what you set your watch by; isn't it?  Ask him something else.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  Do you recall when you saw Helena get out of the car?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And do you recall some other individuals in the car?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You said there were how many other people in the car besides Helena?
A  I didn't say how many there was.  I don't know.
Q  More than one?
A  More than one; yes, sir.
Q  Do you recall seeing them very closely?
A  No, sir.
Q  Could you identify them if you saw them?
A  No, sir; you know I know the guy who drove the Mustang all the time -- you know -- because I had seen him over there before.
Q  Did you see him that particular night?
A  No, sir; I didn't.  I didn't take note.
Q  You just saw the blue Mustang?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Were there men or women in the car or do you know?
A  It sounded like men's voices.  It didn't sound like women's voices at all.
Q  Could you hear them talking?
A  They were like giggling and stuff -- laughing.
Q  They laughed and giggled like men; is that correct?
A  Yes, sir; it was men's voices.
Q  Where were you standing in your apartment when you saw this?
A  At my front door.
Q  At your front door?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And why had you gone to your front door?
A  See, when I heard the car whip in, it kind of like slid in -- you know -- and I had problems with them -- you know -- like keeping us up at night and stuff like this, and I had called the police a lot of times on them.  And like -- my car -- I parked right by the porch.  Well, they would fill up their driveway.  Then they would start filling up my driveway and like they would fall asleep or something over there, and I would get ready to go to work and there might be two or three cars parked behind mine.  I couldn't get out.  That was the only way out was to back out.
Q  In other words, they had come in before and woken you up, is that correct?  Or gotten in your driveway?
A  They had not woke me up at that time of the morning -- you know -- they used to party until about 12:00, 1:00, or 2:00 o'clock in the morning, and you couldn't get to sleep because of them partying and stuff -- you know -- loud noise and stuff.
Q  Any number of cars would be in the driveway; is that what you are saying?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, when you saw Helena, did you see anything on her head?
A  No, sir.
Q  You did not see a floppy hat on her head?
A  No, sir.
Q  You said she was carrying something in her hand; is that correct?
A  Yes,sir.
Q  She had on a purple blouse?
A  That is the only thing that I took notice.
Q  You don"t know what she had on her feet?
A  No,sir.
Q  You didn't see any boots?
A  No, sir; I'm not saying I didn't see any or I did because I didn't take notice of it.
Q  You just don't know?
A  No; what she had on her feet I couldn't tell you specifically; no.
Q  Now, did she have any white bedsheet or anything with her?
A  No, sir; you know -- I don't know what she had in her hand.
Q  She was carrying something?
A  She was carrying an object in her hand.
Q  Did she walk into her house or did she run in?
A  No, sir; she did not, just was at a fast pace -- you know -- walking at a fast pace.
Q  Was it raining about this time or do you know?
A  I know it was cold, but I can't remember if it was raining or if it was wet.
Q  Now, I believe you testified that she had dark hair but had a blonde wig; is that right?
A  Yes, sir.  She had brunette hair.
Q  And a floppy hat?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you ever see more than one floppy hat or was it always the same one?
A  The hat she wore was always the same one.  It was a white floppy hat.  The brim would flop around.
Q  You never saw her wear a black floppy hat?
A  No, sir.
Q  Do you recall the color of her hair the night you saw her?
A  No, sir.
Q  You don't know whether or not she had her blonde wig on or not?
A  I just noticed it was her and that her roommates were in the apartment.  See, it was a one-bedroom apartment there.
Q  You were living at this time in the Haymount section which you described as the hippie section?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you ever see anybody else in that section have floppy hats during this year or the year preceding?
A  I never took notice of any; no.  The way she wore her hat was like a trademark of hers, you know.  She wore it all the time.
Q  Did you ever know someone by the name of Greg Mitchell?
A  She showed me a picture -- well, no, I did not know them all by their full names and stuff.
Q  Now, I believe you testified that after the 17th of February, 1970, you never saw her wear these particular items again; is that correct?
A  No, sir; she never did.
Q  To your knowledge, you did not see her wear them on the 17th of February; did you?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now, how long after the 17th did someone move from Clark Avenue -- either you or she?
A  She left right after the funeral, you know, a day or so after that was the last time I seen her -- in fact, the day of the funeral, you know.
Q  So, it was about a week or so later?
A  Somewhere in that neighborhood.
Q  Did there come a time when you also moved from Clark Avenue?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How long afterwards from the 17th was that?
A  I think -- I am not for sure, but it was within two or three weeks.  It was when my rent ran out that month.  My wife got scared and so we moved.
Q  Now, you testified that it was not unusual for you to see a black man over there; is that correct?
A  I had seen him only a few times over there, you know.  No, it wasn't ordinary because there weren't there many blacks that came to her house -- that came over there.
Q  What I mean to say was that it was not unusual for you to see this particular black man over there?
A  No, sir; I seen him a couple of times over there.
Q  Now, during the time period that you observed what was going on next door, did you generally see -- how many did you generally see there if you can recall or if you can take note?  Was it about five or ten or what?
A  Do you mean that stayed there regular?
Q  Well, that would come off and on?
A  Oh, there would be no telling how many.  Mr. Archibelle (phonetic), an older man that was retired and lived on the corner, him and I sat on the porch one night and just counted the people.  In about a three-hour span, there was over 30 people coming in there.
Q  Did they have parties on a regular basis?
A  Fairly regular.
Q  And kept you up at night?
A  Fairly regular.
Q  Now, this black man that you said that you weren't sure you observed his face or recognized his face but you saw how he dressed; is that correct?
A  Yes.  It was funny the way that he dressed, you know.
Q  Tell us a little bit more if you will about that?
A  It was like a Confederate jacket with stripes on it.  I thought it was unsual for a black man to be wearing something like that.
Q  You noticed this gray jacket pretty closely; I take it?
A  The first time I ever seen him with it -- the first time I saw him.
Q  Did you ever see the front of it?
A  I didn't take no special note of it.  It wasn't like an Army jacket, you know.  It was like a Confederate-type jacket.
Q  What length was the jacket if you can recall?
A  It was about down to his waist -- maybe a couple of inches past his waist.
Q  You don't know whether it buttoned up the front or zipped up at the front I don't guess; do you?
A  I can't remember, but I believe it buttoned.  I can't remember for sure, but I know he wore nice clothes underneath it.
Q  Now, you stated that on the day of the MacDonald funeral, she had wreaths in her yard?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you ever observe any other time that she had flowers in her yard or anything?
A  Before that, she never had wreaths, you know, the grave-type, for a graveyard.  She never had those before.
Q  But did she ever have flowers other than wreaths?
A  Not outside.  She had them into her apartment, you know, just flowers but not wreath-like.
Q  There was a florist nearby where you all lived; is that correct?
A  Yes, right up in Haymount.
Q  Now, I believe you stated that she wore black all that day; is that correct?
A  Yes, sir, solid black.
Q  Was it fairly common or was it uncommon for Helena to dress in the dark purple or black?
A  She didn't dress in solid black like that before -- not with no black veil and all that.
Q  Just dark purple, I guess?
A  She wore that dark purple quite a bit.  But she didn't wear black like -- no.
Q  What did you do during the day of the MacDonald funeral?
A  What did I do?
Q  Yes, sir?
A  I just carried on my regular day routine, you know.
Q  Did you work and so forth?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What were your hours at work, if you can recall?
A  No.
Q  I know that has been a long time ago.
A  I know that my wife -- the reason I noticed her, my wife and I were going somewhere that afternoon.  And as we were coming out, you know, there she -- you know, there she was, sitting on a step and these wreaths and the black dress and everything around her.  See, I didn't even know that it was the day of the funeral until that evening.  We was watching the news, and it told about the funeral.
Q  Didn't you testify on direct examination that Helena Stoeckley sat out in front of her house all day long?
A  When I said that -- the way I said it, I seen her, you know.  Like, I don't know how to say it.  I seen her that afternoon.  I can't swear that I seen her from sun-up to sundown.  I didn't say that; no.  But I seen her, you know.  It was said by the other neighbors in the neighborhood that she was there all day, you know.  And I seen her from that afternoon on up, you know, until it got late.
Q  But to your own personal knowledge, you only know she was there when you saw her, I guess; is that correct?
A  Yeah.  When we returned, she was still there.  That was two or three hours.
Q  But you of your own personal knowledge don't know that she was sitting out front all day long; do you?
A  No.  I couldn't swear that she was there from sun-up to sundown.
Q  Now, I believe you testified at the Article 32 proceeding; is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is it correct that you testified essentially to what you have said this afternoon, that you saw Helena come in that night?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When was the first time that you ever told law enforcement officers or any law enforcement agency what you have testified to?
A  One afternoon at work, Mr. Thompson of the -- I believe that was his name -- from the prosecutor, come by and talked to me, you know.  And I told him what I seen.  He was a tall man that the Army had.
Q  Would that have been in August of 1970?
A  Yes, sir, right before I testified at the hearing.
Q  Right before you testified?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How did you decide to testify at the Article 32 proceeding?  How did that come about?
A  Well, they had -- in the newspaper, they had a hotline, you know, where like if you had a problem or something that was on your mind, you call and tell what your problem was.  They put the answer in the paper.  So, I had called the hotline and explained, you know, what I saw and what I had discussed with her and stuff, and you know, looked for an answer.  And I quit at Bass Air-Conditioning over the period of time, and I went to work for a linen service.  My wife -- my wife and I had discussed going forth and telling it, you know.  I just didn't want to get involved in the thing.  And the more it went on, we discussed it over and over.  And so, we was delivering linen to the Heart of Fayetteville Motel.  And Mr. Segal and Mr. Eisman was staying there.  I just decided that I had held it in long enough.
Q  Who is Mr. Eisman?
A  He is an attorney, I believe.
Q  With Mr. Segal?
A  Yes.
Q  So, I take it you told them what you knew?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, up until that time, had you told any law enforcement agency?
A  No, sir, other than the hotline -- other than my wife and her immediate family, nobody.
Q  Did there come a time in your discussions with Counsel for the Defense, Mr. Eisman in specific, that any discussion of a financial reward was mentioned?
A  They had printed in the newspaper that there was a reward.  But the day I talked to Mr. Segal, I told him that I was not there for the reward.
Q  Do you recall how much the reward was?
A  No, sir; not exactly.  There was two or three, I believe, wasn't there?  I don't know for sure how much it was.
Q  Do you recall a $5,000 reward?
A  Yes, sir; an ad that had it in the newspaper had $5,000.
Q  Did you tell Mr. Segal or Mr. Eisman what you knew prior to or after you read about the reward?
A  Well, I didn't even -- no, I didn't -- we didn't discuss reward or anything like that.  I just told them what I know, you know.
Q  That's not exactly what I asked.  What I wanted to know was whether or not you spoke about what you knew to Dr. MacDonald's Defense attorneys prior to or after you read about the reward in the newspaper?
A  Well, I knew about the reward, you know, before I talked to him; yes, sir.
Q  Now, I believe you testified that there came a time when you left North Carolina rather quickly, is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is this after you testified at the Article 32 proceedings?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How long after?
A  It was a day or two.  It wasn't very long at all, just within a couple of days.
Q  Did there come a time when you received $150.00 to leave?
A  Yes, sir; to help pay for the truck, you know, that I had -- see, I had furniture.  I had my whole house -- I had furniture -- and I helped -- you know, they paid for the truck, to rent the truck, to move my furniture.
Q  Do you recall who gave you the money?
A  It was an Army -- Army Captain or Lieutenant or something.  It was a military man.
Q  Do you recall whether or not he was connected with the Defense?
A  I didn't know that, you know, that he was connected with Mr. MacDonald, no.  But I know that he was in that hearing thing, yeah.
Q  Do you recall receiving the $150.00 from a Lieutenant Malley?
A  Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Q  Now, where was the $150.00 that was given to you by Lieutenant Malley given to you, if you can recall?
A  It was out there where the hearing was.
Q  Well, can you tell us a little bit -- did you ask for the money or was it volunteered to be given to you?
A  No; see, after they broke into my house, my wife and I -- we were scared, you know; and I didn't -- I had some money, you know, to pay it -- but, like, the truck rented for like $100.00, you know, to move out.  And I called them and told them what had happened and everything, and, you know, he said that -- come out there, you know, and I went out there; and he gave me $150.00.
Q  It was shortly after that you left Fayetteville?
A  I left that same day; you know, we rented a truck and moved right then.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, just a moment.

(Pause.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  With respect to the breaking in to your house as opposed to an apartment --
A  (Interposing)  It was a house.
Q  This was the house on Clark Avenue?
A  No, sir.
Q  This was another house?
A  The new house I moved into.
Q  You didn't learn who broke into the house, did you?
A  No; but see, what happened, we had locked our cat -- we had a cat -- and we had locked him up inside when we left to go to dinner with my father-in-law and mother-in-law; and when we come back the cat was outside wanting to come inside.  And I said to my wife that we had, you know, we realized then that something was wrong because there was no way the cat could get out.  And when we looked at the right side of the house, you could see where the screen was, you know, out; so we left right then.  John took us to the police station.  But her boyfriend that drove the Plymouth was right down in an alley about two blocks down, you know.  When we passed by he followed us to the police station.
Q  Whose boyfriend, Helena Stoeckley's?
A  Yes.
Q  When you moved from your address on Clark Avenue, did you tell Helena Stoeckley where you were moving to?
A  I told her a phony address.  I wouldn't tell her my real address.
Q  Did there come a time subsequent to 1970 when you were interviewed by Mr. Brisentine?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you know who Mr. Brisentine is or was?
A  Yeah; he is the man in there.  I know.  Yes.
Q  Do you whom he was connected with?
A  The Government.
Q  Do you recall telling Mr. Brisentine that you could not remember the specific date of the night that you saw Helena get out of the car?
A  No.
Q  You did not say that to Mr. Brisentine?
A  No, sir; I did not.
Q  Do you recall ever telling Mr. Brisentine that you might have had a dream about seeing Helena go to her house?
A  No, sir.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, that concludes our cross-examination.

MR. SEGAL:  I have just a very brief matter on redirect, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Yes, sir.


R E D I R E C T  E X A M I N A T I O N  4:37 p.m.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mr. Posey, when you came back to your house and found the cat was outside and you became concerned about the house, did you find anything inside the house that disturbed you?
A  Yes, sir.  In our bedroom at the window that they had went into, there was a butcher knife behind the door laying on the floor.
Q  A butcher knife?
A  Yes, sir.  The policeman and them found it when they came in.
Q  You called the Fayetteville Police?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  They came down and investigated?
A  They sent a man and a car over; yes, sir.
Q  Did that butcher knife belong to you or any member of your family?
A  It belonged to us.  But it was kept in the kitchen with the dishes.
Q  That was the last time where you had seen it?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  It wasn't kept behind the bed; was it?
A  No, sir.  It was not.
Q  As a result of that episode, did you and your wife become frightened?
A  Yes, sir, extremely.
Q  And what did you do when the episode had taken place?  What did you do about deciding where you were going to live?
A  The only thing I could do, you know, is go back to my home in Alabama.  I wanted to get away from there -- get out of there.  I felt like it wasn't safe for me or my wife either one.
Q  When did that all happen?
A  Right after I testified at the Army hearing.
Q  Had you had any problems with people breaking into your place before then?
A  No; never.
Q  Now, let's go back to the first time that you ever met me or saw me.  Do you recall where that was?
A  It was at the Heart of Fayetteville Motel or hotel.
Q  Do you recall when you came to see me?  Was anybody else there besides myself?
A  There was that Mr. Eisman.
Q  Did you ask for a reward at that time?
A  No.
Q  Did anybody mention reward to you at that time?
A  No; not at that time.
Q  Did anyone ever connected with the Defense ever offer you a reward to tell something that wasn't so or to tell anything?
A  No.  When I left my home, you know, I left a good job and we had a nice house and everything.  And you know, I had to get completely re-established, you know, on my own.
Q  That was because of that episode that happened right after you testified; is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did you say about a reward when you talked to Mr. Eisman and myself?
A  That I was not there for a reward.  I was not concerned, you know, for money.  I was just concerned for telling what I knew.
Q  After that, was the subject of reward ever brought up by anybody?
A  No, sir.
Q  When you called and you told the lawyers for Dr. MacDonald about the breaking in at your house, who offered to help you move?
A  Mr. -- that Mr. Malley.
Q  Mr. Malley?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you ask for anything or tell them that they were going to give you some money or something?
A  I just told them I had to get out of there; that I did not feel like I was safe.
Q  That was all as a result of your testifying at the Article 32 proceeding?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further of this witness, Your Honor.

MR. BLACKBURN:  I have just one last question, if I might.


R E C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N  4:39 p.m.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  Mr. Posey, do you recall telling Mr. Brisentine that your wife might have kept on occasion that knife in the bedroom?
A  No, sir.  I owned a pistol.
Q  But you don't recall telling Mr. Brisentine that?
A  No, sir; I do not.

MR. BLACKBURN:  No further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you, Mr. Posey.  You may step down.

(Witness excused.)