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Grand Jury


January 15, 1975

Testimony of Paul Stombaugh (FBI)
Wednesday, January 15, 1975, 1:00 p.m.

MR. EPPERSON: All Grand Jurors are present.

Whereupon, MR. PAUL M. STOMBAUGH, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
Q  State your full name?
A  Paul M.  Stombaugh.  It's S-t-o-m-b-a-u-g-h.
Q  Where are you employed, Mr. Stombaugh?
A  I'm a special agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and I'm presently assigned as a Chief of the Chemistry Branch in the FBI Laboratory, Washington, D.C.
Q  And prior to your becoming attached to the FBI Laboratory in Washington, D.C., were you a field agent?
A  Yes, sir, I was in the field for nine years.
Q  And since that time you have been with the lab, is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How long have you been with the FBI?
A  Twenty-three years.
Q  Unh-hunh.  Now, directing your attention to the year, 1971, did you have occasion at that time to receive some physical evidence together with a request from Henry H.  Tufts, the Commanding Officer of the Army CID Agency in connection with an investigation being conducted by the Army CID into the murders of members of the MacDonald family?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  All right, will you tell us what you received at that time, tell us basically what you -- what you were requested to do and tell us what you did do?
A  Hand me my --
Q  Yeah.

(Mr. Woerheide hands files to Mr. Stombaugh.)

A  At this time Special Agent William Ivory of the CID delivered to me in the laboratory two paring knives, an ice pick, the red and white pajamas, both top and bottoms of Kristen MacDonald, Kristen's under panties and her under shirt.
Also, the pajama top and bottom of Colette MacDonald and the clothing of Kimberly MacDonald, consisting of a pair of child's panties and a child's nightgown.
And also a torn blue pajama top and the pocket allegedly from that pajama top.
The request covered several facets.  The Military wanted to know whether or not, one, the type of damage to these various garments, in other words if they had been caused by paring knives or an ice pick or some other type of weapon, and the number of wounds or damage holes in these garments.
They wanted also to know whether or not the pajama top had been torn, if we had any idea the manner in which it was torn, and whether or not blood had been on the pajama top prior to it being torn.
I conducted an examination on it and in the blue pajama top -- (witness takes blue pajama top out of plastic bag) -- I found forty-eight puncture holes in it.
You can see them here.  I have encircled each one.
Several in the left upper shoulder area.  In fact, there were thirteen in this panel, (indicating), and the bulk of the holes were centered up around the right shoulder area.
In examining these holes, I determined they could have been made by an ice pick that was submitted.  
And further, that these holes were put in this pajama top when it was stationary.
My conclusion as to the holes being put in here when it was stationary is the fact that none of the holes had tearing.
If someone is fighting off an assailant, and they go after you with an ice pick, and you dodge, this material is going to tear where that ice pick goes through.
None of these forty-eight holes had any of these tearing.  So therefore, it is my opinion that they were put in there when it was stationary.
The manner in which this garment was torn in putting it all back together, I concluded that it had been grabbed in the left part of the yoke, and the person grabbing it, pulled down and torn the garment down and away, tearing the left panel off and the left sleeve all the way down to the end.
I further concluded that this had been done after there had been some blood put on this pajama top, because up in the left -- or in the left seam area, I was able to find a couple of blood spots that had gone from one side of the panel to the other side before it was torn.
Now, this could be explained like if you take a piece of fabric, and pour blood or liquid on it, it's going to spread out.
And then after you tear it, you're going to have the concentric blood stain, half on one side and half on the other.
I also found up in the left shoulder area at the seam, another spot of blood that had been on it prior to it being torn in that area.
They also wanted to know whether or not which knife might have caused the cuts in this pajama top.  They sent me two knives, one was a Valley Forge and the other was an old Hickory.
The cuts in this pajama top, as I examined it, were very dull.  In other words, this had been made -- the cuts had been made with a very dull knife.
In the laboratory, I made test cuts with both the Old Hickory and the Valley Forge knife, and --

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Is it Geneva Forge?
A  Geneva Forge, I'm sorry, which is a bent knife and very dull.
The bent knife or the dull one, the Geneva Forge made cuts very similar to the cuts appearing in the pajama top.  The other knife was extremely sharp.  It made very sharp, smooth cuts, with no tearing of the yarns.
So, therefore, I concluded that of these two knives, this one could have made the cuts in this pajama top.  (Witness holds up Geneva Forge knife.)
I examined the clothing of Colette MacDonald, Kristen MacDonald, and Kimberly MacDonald, and in the clothing of Colette MacDonald in her pajama top, I found numerous stabs that had been made with a very sharp knife and concluded that the Old Hickory knife would be the one of these two to have made the cuts in her pajama top.
I also found, I believe, thirty ice pick punctures that had also been placed through her clothing when she was in a stationary position.
In other words, she was not fighting around when she sustained, or rather when her clothing, rather, sustained the ice pick punctures in her clothes.
There was no tearing there.
Q  We have here her pajamas in this physical evidence, and --

(Mr. Woerheide takes pink, bloody pajamas from plastic bag.)

Q  Maybe you can show the jury the typical ice pick hole and typical knife hole.
A  This is a different type of fabric from the pajama top.  This is a knitted fabric, whereas this is woven.  So, therefore, the holes will appear slightly different.  But the round holes are the -- or the holes rather that I have circled were made by an ice pick, and this is a typical cut made by a knife.
This cut up here consists of -- this hole rather consists of about three cuts, and this is the type thing you will find when someone takes a knife and jabs it in good and far and pulls it out a little bit.  I'll cut the fabric down a little bit.
But the cuts in this fabric were made with a very sharp knife, such as the Old Hickory knife.  It could not have been made by this Geneva Forge knife which is very dull.

(Witness puts pink pajamas back into plastic bag.)
Now, this was the extent of my examination of these items in 1971, and I wrote a report and sent it back to the CID.
Q  All right, now, were you recontacted in the year 1974?
A  Yes, sir, I was.
Q  All right, tell us what happened at that time.  What was furnished to you, what was requested of you, what you did, what observations you made, what conclusions you arrived at?
A  In 1964 -- rather '74, I was contacted by Captain Brian Murtagh who delivered to me numerous items of evidence including the items I've just talked about here.
At that time, he requested that I conduct more of an involved investigation or examination into these items.
They brought in various yarns and threads found at various areas of the MacDonald residence.
They brought in hairs found from various items, and they brought in hair samples and requested that I travel up to Long Island and take hair samples from the bodies of Colette MacDonald, Kristen MacDonald, and Kimberly MacDonald, which I did, and I believe that was in September.
We needed these hair samples for comparisons with the hairs that were found.
They also asked me to examine the sheets and other items of bed clothing found in the MacDonald residence.
Where do you want me to start on this one, now?
Which should I take up first?
Q  Well, let's do the hairs and fibers and then go into the sheets, and as far as that entails with the story in conjunction with the story of the pajama top, then the towel -- rather the pajamas.
A  Well, the pajama top I analyzed and found out that the fabric itself is composed of cotton and polyester fibers.
The garment is sewn together with cotton sewing thread.
The bulk of the seams in which the sewing thread has a distinct purple color to it, and was used throughout the garment with the exception of the cuffs.  Now, the ribbing on the cuffs, the inside of it was sewn on there -- now, this would be the portion of the thread on the bobbin of the sewing machine.
Apparently that bobbin on the sewing machine used had blue-black cotton sewing thread, rather than the purple which was used on the top of it.
The piping on the collar here was sewn on with white sewing thread.  I examined all the sewing threads and yards which were submitted to me as coming from various areas of the house, and I noted at the time that the bulk of these sewing threads and yarns were recovered in the master bedroom, the bedroom where Mrs. MacDonald was found.
All of the sewing threads and yarns that was submitted to me are microscopically and compositionally identical to the yarns and sewing threads composing this.
And this would include one blue-black sewing thread fragment that matched the left sleeve area of this pajama top which was also found in the east bedroom.
In reading the reports, I found that the -- some of these sewing threads were found in the beds of both Kristen and Kimberly MacDonald.
I further noted that no sewing threads were found in the area of the couch where the report indicated a fight had taken place in which this garment was torn.
In my experience, a garment that's torn such as this, as soon as it's torn, the initial phases, that's where most of the sewing threads and yarns are going to leaving this garment as they come loose.
So, I have more or less had to surmise that the initial fight, or rather this garment was torn in the east bedroom, or master bedroom, rather than in the living room or none of the other rooms, and that this is based solely on the number of threads and yarns that they recovered in that room.
The hairs I examined and was able to match the hairs up with all the hairs that were recovered and submitted with either the head of Colette MacDonald or the hairs of Kristen MacDonald or Kimberly MacDonald or Mrs. Kassab, who was a frequent visitor to the house.
I didn't find any hairs that did not match them.  No foreign hairs.  No hairs from somebody we didn't know anything about.
Interestingly enough they submitted a blue sheet and a multicolored bedspread.  I believe that was found by the doorway leading into the master bedroom.

(Mr. Woerheide indicates on the diagram the location of the sheet and bedspread.)

Q  Are you referring to the blue sheet and bed cover that's located at this point in the photograph?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  All right, sir.
A  One of the sewing threads submitted to me for examination originated from the multicolored bedspread.  It was a purple one, matched those used in the construction of this pajama top, but entwined around it was a head hair, blondish hair, Caucasian origin that had blood-like deposits on it, along the shaft of the hair.  And this hair microscopically matched the hairs of Colette MacDonald, and this hair was found wrapped around a sewing thread and found among the bedspread when the CID agents recovered that.
In examining the blue sheet, which was right here (witness indicates on diagram), --
Q  I'm wondering, do you think it might be better to go with the towel before the sheet?
A  Let's go with the towel.

(Witness removes large white bath towel from plastic bag.)

Q  All right, let me ask this question.  Among the items submitted to you, was there a towel?
A  It was a -- actually a bath mat.  It had the word "Hilton Hotel" written on it.
Q  All right, this has been marked as Ivory Exhibit 2, and I'll ask you if this is the same bath mat that was submitted to you?
A  Yes, sir, it is.  It has my initials on it.
Q  All right, would it be helpful to put the bath mat up here for illustration?
A  Yes, sir.

(Mr. Woerheide attaches bath towel to the easel.)

A  As you can see, this bath mat has a good many blood stains on it.  I will call your attention in particular to this blood stain here, and this one here.
If you take the Old Hickory paring knife, it fits exactly right here.  This portion up here being made by the blade; this little rounded end being made by the back tip of the knife.
So, either this knife or a knife very similar to it was placed on this bath mat in a very bloody condition at one time.
Q  All right, now, I see beyond where the knife was, there's a spot with some blood.
Now, if the knife were there and this were turned over, would that also come from a knife?
A  Yes, sir, it would or could.  The knife did not have any blood on this portion of it, but it did on both sides.
And when this is folded over, you get the same effect.
Also, if it was folded over this way, you also get an impression from the same knife, in this portion right in here.  The handle fits in there and you can find the groove right here where the knife blade comes up.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Can you all see this?

JUROR:  I could when he was sitting down a while ago.

WITNESS:  Okay, I'll just get out of the way.  Sorry about that.

A  Now, this blood stain over here is also interesting, because the ice pick fits there perfectly.  Just laid there.  This rolled a little bit up here.  This handle was not quite as bloody as the business end of the ice pick.
Now, on the --
Q  Shall I turn it over?

(Mr. Woerheide turns bath towel over on the easel.)

Q  Is this the side that you want now, or this side?
A  Let's see.
Q  We have it upside down.
A  And this stain here was also probably made by this ice pick, the metal portion was very bloody, laid down here, the handle was not too bloody, and it was probably rolled this way causing this circular blood stain out here toward the end.
This stain here could very easily have been made when this was wiped, also.
And I believe this bath mat was found on the body of Mrs. MacDonald, along her lower torso.
This -- the knife portion up here, that stain could not have been made by this knife, because the shape and all the blade is entirely different.
But it could have been made by this knife.  Let's see.  I guess we might as well go into the sheet, now.
Q  All right, here's the sheet.  Here's the bedspread.

(Mr. Woerheide takes sheet and bedspread from plastic bags.)

A  Now, the bedspread and the sheet, these two items, are the ones that were in a pile right here at the entrance to the master bedroom where the body of Mrs. MacDonald was found, right inside the door.
I began to examine this (indicating sheet), and found some unusual blood stains on it, also.  Now, all of these stains were placed on this sheet on this side.  They were not put on the other side and bled through.
If you can notice right here, this is a bloody outline made by a sleeve.
This also is a bloody outline made by another sleeve.
Through matching up the configurations of the blood stains with a pajama top that belonged to Mrs. MacDonald when she had it on, I was able to conclude that this stain and this one were in fact made by the right and left sleeves of Mrs. MacDonald's pajama top.
Now, I'll have to turn it around this way.
Now --
Q  I wonder if we could drape it over the screen.
A  Okay.

MR. STROUD:  Perhaps if I hold one end and Vic holds the other and just stand in front of it.

A  Good idea.

(Mr. Stroud and Mr. Woerheide hold the sheet in a special position.)

A  Okay, I have already explained these two bloody impressions to you.
I call your attention, now, to this one, and it's a strange stain, but it was made in blood, and it comes down, comes out this way, and down and straight across.  It tears down, then off and then it trails on off again, and stops right about there.
In examining this and comparing this stain with this blue pajama top, I was able to conclude that this stain was made by the torn left sleeve of this blue pajama top.
Now, if you look a little further, right up above this stain, you can make out the outline in blood of the bare shoulder of a human being, including the clavicle, these bones in his neck, as well as the outline of his chin.
Now, down here is a hand impression made by a hand that was very bloody.  We have another one right here, one is a right hand.  One is a left hand.
Now, on the reverse side of this sheet, this stain right here was made by the right sleeve of this pajama top, and this is another stain made by the cuff area of that same right sleeve.  We were able to match these up, and say it came from this, because of the configuration of this blood stain on it.
In trying to sort this thing out --
Q  Do you want to do it on the floor or try to do it on the table?
A  I can just do it on the table.

(Witness spreads blue sheet on table.)

A  We conclude that Colette's body was on the floor, laying face down.  The sheet was placed over her like this which caused the impressions of her pajama top on the sheet, and then if you throw the sheet up a bit like this and reach under and pick that body up, and if you're bloody at the time, you're going to leave a left bare shoulder, torn pajama top there, and an arm coming over the top, puts the impression on the other side of the right sleeve.
And in working in the laboratory for about a week, that was the only way those impressions could have gotten there like that.

(Witness returns to stand.)

Q  Mr. Stombaugh --
A  Want to go to Kristen's room?
Q  Yeah, let's go to Kristen's room, and here's the room, and here's the bedspread for the master bedroom.
Here's the top sheet from, I think, this is the top sheet from Kristen's bed, and this is the bedspread from Kristen's bed, the green bedspread that had some blood marks on it.
A  Let's see.  Let's start off with the slides of that room.
Q  Okay.

(Witness goes to projection screen.)

A  All right, here is the blue bedspread, the blue sheet which I just testified about, and right under the --

MR. STROUD:  Paul, could you stand on the other side, please?

A  I'm sorry.  And right under it is the multicolored bedspread which is right over there.

JUROR:  Could we go back, please and see that one after he moved?

A  This is the master bedroom.  Colette's body was up in this area.  This is right front of the closet.  Here's the hall.  This is where the sheet and the bedspread were found by the CID.

(Slide is changed.)

A  Now, this is Kristen's room, and I'd like to direct your attention to this area right here.
Now, this is the top sheet on that bed, and it's -- it has a huge blood stain on it.
Notice, it's kind of up in the air, some.  This is that sheet, top sheet after it had been taken off, and you can see here how large these blood stains are.
Now, if you notice, that blood-stained top sheet was in about this area of this bed.  Yet, there is no blood stain underneath on the bottom sheet.
I think I can take it from here, Vic.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Okay.

(Witness returns to the stand.)
In reading the reports, it was reflected that the huge blood stain on the top sheet in Kristen's bedroom was type A blood.
Now this is Colette's blood type, because Kristen had type O blood and the rest of the blood in there, the bulk of it was type O.
And in examining the stain, it was not one that would have been put there just by somebody's hand.
It's a huge blood stain as you can see.  An awful lot of blood flowed there.  The only way you can get staining such as this, is from a steady flow right down onto it.  And it had to have been coming from above, because had she been lying -- Colette been lying on this bed bleeding, it would have pressed this sheet down onto the lower sheet and we would have had a large adjoining group A stain on the bottom sheet, but there just isn't one there.
Where do we go from here?
Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Well, here's -- here's a bedspread that was found in conjunction with the sheet from this bed, and this has a substantial amount of type A blood on it, does it not?
A  Yes, sir, it does.
Q  Would you say at one time that was soaked with blood?
A  At one time that had a very heavy flow of blood from a type A person directly onto it.  In fact even today there's a large cake of blood on this, a specimen of group A blood.

(Witness refers to multicolored bedspread.)

Q  Now let me ask you this question: we have two footprints here exiting this room.  Could a person who was in this room from the bedspread get enough blood on his foot to have made these two footprints as he exited the room?
A  Yes, sir, if this bedspread had been placed down in this room in this vicinity here perhaps, (indicating floor area of small bedroom) and Colette's body was lifted off the bed where she was bleeding here and laid down on the rug, she would have bled directly on the rug.
Then her body could have been covered with this sheet and as the person lifted it up, stepped on the blood on this bedspread.
Now, this bedspread is very heavy, and the blood does not soak through it.  It acts like a little bit of a well in there, and holds it.
If he stepped in that and carried Colette's body out of this room, he would leave two bloody footprints.
Q  Now, in addition you also looked at the green bedspread, did you not?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Now, the green bedspread, it's been testified to had marks of blood on it that were of type AB which was the blood of Kimberly.

(Mr. Woerheide removes green bedspread from plastic bag and places it on the witness stand.)

Q  Now, it's also been testified that there is type AB blood on this club.
Can you offer a possible explanation of how the AB blood may have gotten on that bedspread?
A  Well, there's two possible explanations.  This stain is not a result of direct bleeding.  It's been a transfer of blood.
In other words, a very bloody object having AB blood on it was placed on here.
Now, this could have occurred from a bloody arm touching it, or it could have occurred by resting this club in a bloody condition on it in that manner.
Q  All right, sir, now, from your observations, and the evidence that you studied, is it reasonable to say that there was a struggle by a person wearing the blue pajama top in this room at which time the blue pajama top was torn?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And is it reasonable to say that Colette MacDonald having suffered an injury and bleeding, was in a position on the bed of Kristen MacDonald over near the wall where she bled directly on to the top sheet on Kristen MacDonald's bed?
A  Yes, sir, and I'd like to point one other thing out in that regard.
If I can have the pajama bottoms.
Q  Yes.

(Mr. Woerheide removes pink pajama bottoms from plastic bag.)

A  The only injuries Colette MacDonald suffered were from, of course, this portion of her, up.  (indicating) She had no injuries from her waist down.
Now, what puzzled me was how her pajama bottoms, this is the front of them, got so much blood down on the legs.
And according to the laboratory report, CID people, this is all type A blood, her own blood.  So, if -- with this much bleeding and it's direct bleeding and it's a lot of bleeding, and we have two places where we have this type of thing.
One is the top sheet of Kristen's bed.  That was this white sheet which I showed you the large blood stain, and we have more direct bleeding onto her pajama bottoms from the knees on down.
This would indicate to me due to the fact that this bed is only thirty-six inches wide, that Colette MacDonald was probably knocked across this bed against the wall and fell forward like causing the blood to dip down onto the top sheet and onto the pajama bottoms.
Q  All right, now, in the further work that you did in analyzing the evidence before you, did you take note of a photograph indicating the type of injuries that Colette MacDonald had?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And do you have with you a copy of photograph that you studies especially?

(Witness removes a large photograph from an envelope.)

A  This was a picture at the time of autopsy and shows the damage to Colette MacDonald's chest.
If you'll notice, -- I guess the people in the back can't see too well -- we have twenty-one ice pick wounds.
According to the autopsy report, she suffered twenty-one ice pick wounds to the chest.  They were deep and penetrating.
In study the ice picks wounds we have a group of five in her right chest and a group of sixteen ranging in her left chest area.
Now, to start -- excuse me -- (Witness drops photograph), now in studying the pictures of Colette, found on the floor, we see that she has this blue pajama top draped over her.  And studying the thing a little bit further, it's easy to realize in trying to fold this back in the position trailing off onto the floor, all the way down, is the left sleeve -- the left torn sleeve of that pajama top as well as left front panel.
These are the only portions of that pajama top that doesn't have any puncture holes in them.
So, it led us to believe quite possibly maybe she was stabbed through the pajama top.  So, what we did, refolded the pajama top exactly as it appears in these pictures, and in the picture here the right sleeve is turned inside out, and trails across the body in this fashion.  And the bottom of it was pushed up.
Now, the thing has forty-eight puncture holes in it.  Thirteen of those -- or twelve of these holes are over in this area here, right down.
Now, we started there and by pushing it up and folding it, we found that we got a group of five holes there.  Those twelve holes were made by twelve thrusts.
And in the other side, the remaining holes as you can see where they're at, all concentrated there.
We worked and finally got all those put together and came up with sixteen thrusts, a total of twenty-one thrusts through this pajama top with an ice pick which conformed and grouped in location to the twenty-one ice pick wounds in Colette's chest.
And we took a picture of it with the probes going through.  Here's the left sleeve and the left panel trailing off.  Here's the group of five in the right chest.  Here's the group of sixteen that would conform to the left chest.
Now, we can't say positively this happened.  We're pointing out this as a possibility, it could have happened, because all of the holes are accounted for, and we did come up with the same number and the same location group.
Q  Now for the benefit of the jurors, are the same number on these picks, let's call them, or rods --
A  Yes.
Q  Are the numbers on those rods the same as the numbers on the photograph which shows the twenty-one ice pick injuries on her chest?

(Mr. Woerheide refers to picks with numbers on them that are shown in the pajama top in the lab test photograph.)

A  Yes, yes, they are.  That doesn't necessarily mean the order in which she was stabbed.  That's just an accounting of the number of holes and point out where the groups are.
Q  All right, sir, now, you say from your analysis of the evidence, it appears that when she was stabbed with the ice pick, she was motionless.  She was not struggling, and the stabbings were a direct penetration into her body, is that correct?
A  Yes, sir, they were direct penetrations into her body, probably through this pajama top.
Q  Now, Mr. Stombaugh, on the basis of your analysis of the physical evidence that you have referred to here today, the blood marks on the sheets, the source of blood for -- on the bedspread, the location of the place where Colette MacDonald bled directly and very profusely in Kristen's room, have you developed any theory of how all these things fit together?  What happened that night?
A  Of course, we can only go by the facts we know, some of which I have presented to you.  These are known.  Some events, I guess, we'll never know, but it would appear to me that the fight started in here, possibly over the argument about the child wetting the bed.  I wouldn't know.  (Witness points to master bedroom.)
I believe Dr. MacDonald probably struck his wife in the face with a fist, knocked her down.  This would cause the blood to start flowing.  She probably had a bloody nose, and through a struggle there, is where the blood got onto his pajama top, on the side up here before it was torn.  This group A blood.
He probably could have by this time, -- Kimberly, I believe is the child who was found in this bedroom (Indicating Kimberly's bedroom).  She might have come up, due to the screaming, awakened, and tried to help her mother.
He might have pushed her aside, and this is just supposition on my part.  I feel probably that this club which is the type of thing used for painting, I imagine it could have been kept in this utility room which is a very short place from this bedroom.  
I sort of suspect possibly Colette might have picked this club up and socked Jeffrey with it which could account for the bump on his head.
He was a bruiser, so he took the club away from her and went to swing at her and probably accidentally or on purpose, struck Kimberly on the side of the head with it, who was standing here, causing her to bleed, and this would account for the AB blood found in this area.
And in the doorway here, in the rug, it has soaked through pretty much through, indicating someone had laid here bleeding a good bit.
When he did that, I think our little bent knife comes into play, because this is the type of knife that's very dull, and the type a lot of people, including myself, keep around for painting because it makes a good thing to scrape paint with when you drop some on the floor.
Q  I think this was in the proximity of this club in the utility room, and I think she grabbed this and attacked Jeff with this thing, possibly causing the little cut.  The report said he had a cut in his left abdomen, wasn't it?
A  Yeah, in this area, that approximate area.  It was slight and was made with a tearing action.  A knife such as this would do that.  And when she did that, he leveled her with this club.  Then things, I think sort of quieted down, because I believe Colette undoubtedly had to have been unconscious at that time.
Then I think he picked Kim up, carried her into her bed here, due to the AB blood splatters on the wall, I believe he hit her again with the club and killed her.
While this was going on, or possibly before that, I think Colette came to, came into this room, (indicating Kristen's bedroom), to protect the only child that is not dead, and he caught up with her in there and really let her have it with the club again.
This is possibly could be where both her arms were broken, because they're defense wounds, and she has nothing -- and she was knocked across to the wall here, and then he -- she was here at sometime to have bled this much.
I guess he kind of got himself oriented, picked these up, the bedspread here, and the blue sheet and carried them back into this bedroom, reach over and picked up Colette.
Now, at this time his pajama top had been torn, but it probably isn't too bloody, and I believe all the blood on the pajama top, the bulk of it, got on there when he reached across the bed and picked her up and put her down on this bedspread.
Then, he covered her with this sheet, and having blood on him, fresh blood, wet blood, and also on his hands, he reached down, picked her up, carried her back into this room where she eventually was found.
After that, he probably went to the kitchen and he could have been bleeding by this time from the cut here (indicating).  He picked up the Old Hickory knife, went back in and did the job on the rest of them, ended up with the ice pick on Colette.
I think when he put her body down here, that is when he took this pajama top off and threw it across her body, and after he cleaned things up, I believe that the bath mat could have been in the bathroom in here, because of the sink here and the fact of finding all this blood in here.
That's where I believe he put the weapons down on this bath mat in there, and then as he left, he threw it down, went out the back door, threw the knife and the ice pick out.
That would be somewhat of a sequence of events.
Q  All right, sir, now, I think there's one little thing that we might be able to demonstrate.
We have a photograph or photographs -- (witness removes coat) -- of Dr. MacDonald which show where he -- his injuries purportedly were.
A  (Witness puts on pajama top.) You can see anybody wearing this pajama top, gets stuck this many times, he should have a few holes in him.
And if you're fighting, these holes are going to be torn, but they're not.  They were made stationary.
And is it clear enough?

MR. STROUD:  You can see the white circles indicating the ice pick holes.  Can you see those?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Here's a pattern of holes.  There's one over here.  There's one over here and one over here, and then the rest of them are here and underneath in the armpit area, and down to this section.

MR. STROUD:  And there are a couple in the front.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  A couple up here.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Now, according to MacDonald, the injuries he suffered were a penetration wound here in the seventh intercostal space, a cut at this point, and he was described as having a sort of a bloody scratch in this area, a couple of cuts on his left biceps, and that was it.
Is there any correlation between the penetration marks on that thing and the wounds purportedly suffered by Dr. MacDonald?
A  No, sir, none whatsoever.
Q  Well, let's go off the record for a moment.

(Discussion off record.)

A  All right, this photograph "F" conforms to the "F" stain on the sheet.

(Mr. Woerheide removes a large group of photographs from an envelope.)

Q  All right, I'll give you the whole bunch.
This is the stain right here of Colette's pajama top.  It was made by this sleeve of her pajama top.
The "G" stain here was made by this sleeve of Colette's pajama top.
There's a clip at the bottom.

(Witness clips corresponding photographs together.)

A  The "C" and "D" stains are bloody handprints, of a right and a left hand.
The "A" stain is made by the right sleeve of the torn blue pajama top.
Just a moment.

(Discussion off record.)

A  This is a photograph of that sheet I talked about with the various impression on it, and you can refer to the various areas designated A, B, C, D and E, and these are nothing more than blowups of those areas, with the item that caused the stain on the sheet.
Now, this area in here is the one that was caused by the torn blue top, the left torn sleeve, and the sleeve was folded in this fashion when it came to rest upon there.
And it trailed on off.
Q  Here are the clips over here.

(Witness clips corresponding photographs together.)

A  This is a blowup of the left bare shoulder and follow it on around over the -- these bones here, the clavicle; you can see the outline of the chin.
This is another blowup of that same area, extending down a little bit farther, but showing the edge of the torn pajama sleeve.
Q  I just want to remind you these were testified to yesterday by Mrs. Glisson, the impression that Mr. Stombaugh said was made by an ice pick comparable to the one that we have in evidence in type A blood, the blood of Colette.
And the bloody knife that was laid on the bath mat is type AB, the blood of Kimberly.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, I guess we better number these photographs.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) How about these?  These were made, I know, initially -- would it be helpful to number them, too?  I think they show more -- with a deal of clarity the -- the --
A  I can show you how --
Q  The holes were --
A  The group of five holes come together there.  As you fold this up, let me get my -- now, that group of five holes, when this is folded up, this way, as it is in the photographs, hole number twenty-one was caused by one, two and three folded up and through, which was just folded down twice, those holes lined up.
Hole nineteen was caused by four, five and six, that fold here, that makes two holes.  And the hole number ten, and hole number eight went together.  Hole seven and hole eleven went together.  Hole twelve and hole nine went together.
And that gave you a group of five thrusts.
These over here are too sorted out to really go through.  I don't have enough photographs to show those.
Q  All right, sir, well, let's mark these photographs as exhibits, and then --

MR. STROUD:  I'll do the marking and let her do the taking.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I'm sure y'all have some questions.

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 1-A MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE BLUE PAJAMA SLEEVE.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 1 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING THE BLOWN UP PHOTOGRAPH OF THE CORRESPONDING SHEET STAIN.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 2-A MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE PINK PAJAMA SLEEVE.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 2 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A BLOWN UP PHOTOGRAPH OF THE CORRESPONDING SHEET STAIN.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 3-A MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE PINK PAJAMA SLEEVE.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 3 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A BLOWN UP PHOTOGRAPH OF THE CORRESPONDING SHEET STAIN.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 4-A MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE TORN BLUE PAJAMA SLEEVE.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 4 MARKED FOR IDENTIFIECATION, BEING A BLOWN UP PHOTOGRAPH OF THE CORRESPONDING SHEET STAIN.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 5 MARKED FOR IDENTIFIED, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING CLOTHING SMEARS ON SHEET.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 6 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING CLOTHING AND HAND SMEARS ON SHEET.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 7 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTGRAPH SHOWING A HANDPRINT ON SHEET.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 8 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING CLOTHING SMEARS ON SHEET.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 9 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING COLETTE'S CHEST WOUNDS.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 10 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING COLETTE'S BODY.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 11 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING COLETTE'S BODY AND PORTION OF RUBBER GLOVE FINGER.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 12 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING TOP PORTION OF COLETTE'S BODY.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 13 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE BLUE PAJAMA TOP FOLDED IN THE LAB TEST POSITION, WITH NUMBERED PICKS STICKING INTO FABRIC.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 14 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE TORN PAJAMA TOP PINNED TO A FLAT SURFACE.)

(STOMBAUGH EXHIBIT 15 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION, BEING A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE INSIDE BACK OF THE TORN PAJAMA TOP PINNED TO A FLAT SURFACE.)

JUROR:  He hasn't mentioned the pocket, yet.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) All right, tell us about the pocket.  The pocket was on the floor here.  The pajama top was over the body here.  Tell us about it.
A  That pocket didn't have too much blood on it.
Also, we fit the pocket back onto this pajama top.  It did come from this pajama top, and it was probably torn off in the initial stages of this fight in that bedroom where it came to rest which is another indication that the fight actually started and took place there rather than some place else in the house.
Q  You mentioned that that -- a hair of Colette that was tightly twisted around a thread which was a thread from the pajama top found in the sheet and the bedspread that were there?
A  Yes, sir, the CID recovered that from this bedspread.
Q  All right, does that indicate physical contact between Colette and whoever was wearing that pajama top?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I'm sure y'all have some more questions.

JUROR:  I do.  You say how wide was the bed in Kris's room there?

A  Thirty-six inches.

JUROR:  Do you think then in order for her to have hit the wall and to have bent back here, you know, like this, for her head to be there; wouldn't she have to clear the bed completely in order to get to the other side?

A  The bed wasn't too high, but when I was down there, I backed into the bed -- of course, I'm a lot taller than Mrs. MacDonald would have been.
But my rump would have hit kind of the center and bounced back.  Now, if she was hit it wouldn't take too much of a blow to knock her across that bed, because it's not that wide.  When you talk about thirty-six inches, you're talking about that.  (Indicating)

JUROR:  I was thinking about her head.  I was trying to visualizing mine coming to the bottom of my ankles.  I do that about once a week, but it's kind of hard.

A  Unh-hunh (yes).

JUROR:  But she'd have to be standing directly that way to -- in order to come back this way, wouldn't she?

A  She'd have to go into it backwards.

JUROR:  I know it.  That's what I mean.  But for her body to come back this way, instead of knocking her at an angle?
A  Not if she was in the corner.  Let me see.  Here we are.  This bed was tight up against the wall, and it had the head on it.  And if she ended up in this corner up here, I measured the stains all out, and her head would be just about where that stain was in this picture.

JUROR:  In other words she was in the corner rather than against the wall?

A  Well, not flat, because if she had she'd probably gone off to one side or the other side.

JUROR:  That's what I thought.

A  If she's in the corner there, she's got a little bit of support and could go forward.

JUROR:  Well, if you assume that maybe the fight happened in the bedroom, like you were saying, and he had hit Kimberly, say by mistake, don't you think that she, instead of picking up a knife and going after him would have gone to her child that had been hit and evidently hit pretty hard to have caused all that bleeding?

A  She could have.  That's one of the things, as I say, there's some things that I guess we'll never know.

JUROR:  I mean to me that would have been more of a response than picking up a knife and going after him would be to go to the child.

A  Well, she eventually went to that child, apparently.

JUROR:  Right, so how did that knife get in her chest?

A  I'm pretty sure that knife wasn't in her chest.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) You mean the wounds in her chest are not consistent with being made by a dull knife of the type that the, I believe, Geneva Forge knife is?
A  The cuts in her pajama top that coincided with the wounds in her chest were not made --
Q  Yeah, yeah, there's one picture -- let's see, it's the one of her chest.  You noticed they have all these wounds, you can see them there, but over here there's a bruise, and the shape of the bruise is such, as you know, that it could have been made by the end of this thing being pushed against her.
Seems to me, you know, this is all speculation, but having taken the club away from her, if she were coming at him with a knife, he might have pushed her with the club against her chest.
I don't think that was a -- you know --

(Mr. Woerheide shows photograph to grand jury.)

-- a swinging blow.  I think it was pushing at her and she was probably striking at him while he was pushing her away.
Here's the bruise mark.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Any more questions?

JUROR:  Were any stab wounds found in the children comparable to the Geneva Forge knife or the bent knife?

A  All stab wounds in all the clothing had been made with a very sharp knife, comparable to the Old Hickory.
None of them could have been made with the dull knife, the Geneva Forge, with the exception of a cut on this blue pajama top, and it was a tearing cut.
And the test cuts I made in the laboratory, the bent paring knife, the Geneva Forge made cuts like that.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Now, the doctor said that that cut he had down here (indicating lower abdomen) was consistent with being made by the Geneva Forge knife rather than the Old Hickory knife.

JUROR:  Which knife was found inside?

A  Geneva Forge.

JUROR:  Wasn't that the only wound sustained by that knife, the one that Dr. MacDonald got?

A  Ma'am?

JUROR:  Isn't that the only wound sustained by that knife, the one that Mr. MacDonald had; wasn't that the only one that the Geneva Forge knife made?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, the wound that he had here was consistent with being made by the Geneva Forge knife.

JUROR:  That's what I mean.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Now, he did have a couple of superficial wounds up here in the arm, but I think that -- that they -- I don't think that the testimony tied them necessarily to the Geneva Forge knife.  I'm not sure right now.

JUROR:  That's what I was thinking, too.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  It was this one that was consistent with the Geneva Forge knife, not the ones on the arm.

JUROR:  Or any of the rest of the family with that particular knife?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  No, none of the wounds on Colette, Kimberly, or Kristen, according to the testimony of the pathologist appeared to have been made by the Geneva Forge knife.
They are all consistent with the size and shape and the dimensions of the sharpness, the keenness of the Old Hickory knife.

JUROR:  Well, that's what I was getting at, and instead, we're going along, you know, with the way things are right here now, if we were going along that way, looks like it would be in more tact to say that that particular wound would have been inflicted by him rather than coming from Colette.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Which would have been so?

JUROR:  You know that Jeff MacDonald had the Geneva Forge knife.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  It could have been.  All we can do is speculate.  And your guess is as good as or better than mine.
And because you are a member of the grand jury, and I'm not -- it seems to me there's no question there was a struggle.
I do think that Colette, she was a healthy woman, and was not a weakling, and I think Colette did attempt to defend herself.
And it's even conceivable that she started the fight.  I don't know.  But I do think that she attempted to defend herself.
I think it's consistent with her defending herself that she would pick up the club and swing it at him and hit him on the forehead with it.
Not the sort of blow that was strong enough to break the skin or anything, but to raise a lump.

JUROR:  You don't think a hair brush could have made the lump?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I think that's possible, too.  There was a hair brush found right along side her body that she could have reached for the hair brush, and then he reached for the club.
I don't know, but so -- at some place, I do think that Colette in defending herself did inflict some injury on him.
And it seems to me the ones that are most likely to have been inflicted by Colette are the bruise on the head, or the forehead, and the cut, and the cut down here (indicating lower abdomen).
Now I don't think he would have cut himself down that low over the -- over the abdominal area.  And I don't think he would have made that type of a cut in that area.
Apparently, it was a superficial cut, but it did go all the way through the skin to a -- to a layer next down.
Now, as to the other wounds that he had on his body, I think that they are most likely to be self-inflicted.
That's -- that is the way it shapes up to me.  I do think that Colette made a mark on him.

JUROR:  From the way it was going, it looked like first he hit her with his fist, she went after the club first, and then went after the knife.  That makes her look awfully bad.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, I don't know.  I think he did hit her.  I think she started to defend herself.  I think she defended herself.  I think she defended herself with whatever was available to her.
It may have been nothing more than a hair brush.
The only -- I -- thing, that I think Mr. Stombaugh is saying is that because of the nature of the club, the fact that it was used in connection with painting, paints -- the only storage areas they had were that utility room there.  That's where they did keep things like paints and things associated with paints, things they would use to open a paint can, things they'd use to scrape of paint droppings, and this, that and the other thing, if it was in the house.
They had another storage house outside, but that night, I don't think anybody was going outside and picking up a club and coming back in the house.
It was something near at hand, and that's a very logical place for it to be.
Now whether -- who -- which one went in there and grabbed it and wielded it first, I don't know.
If Colette did grab it, I think he took it away from her very quickly.  I don't think she got to take more than one swing with it.
And it's perfectly conceivable that she was -- she reached for the hair brush.  That would probably be sitting right on the dresser there.
And that was her weapon.  All we can do at this junction is speculate as to those things.  But the circumstances, it appears to me lead to the inevitable conclusion that it was -- there was a struggle; that the struggle involved a man wearing those pajamas or those pajama tops, and that serious injuries were inflicted on Colette and the girls; and Colette ended up bleeding very heavily in Kristen's room; and the club was swung there; and the club was swung in Kimberly's room, and somebody wearing those pajama tops and carrying Colette whose pajamas had blood on them that was transferred to the sheet, carried her out of that room and made those footprints
You have heard testimony saying that's the footprint of Captain MacDonald.

JUROR:  Did the pajama top match the bottom of his pajamas?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  We don't have the bottom of his pajamas.  They were thrown away in the hospital and were burned.
If we had the bottoms, I think I can predict, and I feel very confident, and I think Mr. Stombaugh would agree with this, that you'd find a lot of O blood on the bottoms.

JUROR:  Did he get the plastic covers of the gloves, did you get those samples?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  In order to get the plastic gloves, the plastic gloves were stored in the kitchen, and you can see, they were stored in this area --

JUROR:  (Interposing) Yeah, but I'm talking about, did they send him the pieces they found?

A  Oh, no, sir.

JUROR:  Mr. Woerheide --

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Yes, sir.

JUROR:  Were those type gloves like you find in that closet there, if you were to flush one down the commode, would it go down just like a man swallowing an oyster?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I think it would.

(Laughter.)

JUROR:  Same way?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Same way, I think so.

JUROR:  Mr. Woerheide, you said the Geneva Forge knife was the one that was found inside?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Yes, sir.

JUROR:  Well, didn't Dr. MacDonald say he pulled it out of Colette and threw it?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  That's what he said.

JUROR:  Well, it was clean though, wasn't it?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  It was -- it was -- let me see, there was some A blood on it but it had been wiped.

JUROR:  Couldn't he have hit her with the club and she had the club in her hand, it could have stunned her and she dropped it there?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  That's true, but the -- according to what I see here, that blood -- the knife -- the blood that they got off the knife, the little bit amount, they had to really dig into the handle of the knife to get any good quantity of blood, and that was identified as being A type blood.

JUROR:  Well, the fact is, that's not the knife --

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, he may have had A type blood on his hands, and he may have grabbed the knife and transferred the blood to the knife.

JUROR:  But that's not the knife --

MR. WOERHEIDE:  (Interposing) You saw the -- how much blood was transferred onto the sheet by, you know, the handprints, just grabbing it with bloody hands.

JUROR:  He said he just pulled it out threw it over there.  If he had done that with his hands bloody, there would have been almost perfect prints of his hands on the handle, wouldn't it?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, yeah, that's what he said, and according to the MP's he said, tell or to the medics or somebody, he said, tell somebody, the MP's or the CID or somebody I pulled the knife out of my wife's chest.
And he consistently said he pulled it out.  That, "I pulled the knife out of my wife's chest."

JUROR:  But that knife that went in her chest was outside in the rain, wasn't it?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Yes, sir -- yes ma'am.  I think Mr. Stombaugh has a theory about why the knife and the ice pick were found at somewhat different location than the club, is that right?

A  Yes, sir, it's another theory.
If I may have the pointer.  Couldn't figure out why both telephones were off the hook, one in the bedroom, one all the way out in the kitchen.
And I first suspected as he was cleaning things up, the knife and the ice pick were cleaned up in this small bathroom here.
Now, this is a very small bathroom.  I mean it is a real gem.  And they have A and B blood splatters all around here.  (Indicating on the diagram.)
Now, we also have blood spatters out here in this sink here, and there's a surgical scrub brush out here.
I believe this is where the club was scrubbed and cleaned after using it, and after everything had calmed down, he had set the stage.  Here, then he went back.  He decided, well, now, I'll call the MP's.
So, he picks up the phone here, and then it dawns on him: forgot the club.  So he puts the phone down, and it was a break of about one or two minutes in that telephone conversation, with the telephone operator.
So, all the way back out here.  He gets the club and he hustles all the way back and gives it a chunk out the back door.  But while he's out here, he picks up the phone and talks to the MP's again.  And then he drops it, picks up the club and goes back.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  That, of course, is pure speculation.

A  Speculation, right.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, we can only speculate.  We know what the evidence of the threads and the fibers and the garments and the sheet and the bed things and the club and the knives tells us, but you have to speculate as to, you know, just the details of how it was done.

JUROR:  I would like your speculation on why you feel that his pajama bottoms probably had O type blood.  I hadn't thought of that.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Because Kris was stabbed in her front and she was stabbed on her back, and she was stabbed very deeply, both on the front and the back, and you will notice that her body was down here over the edge of the bed, and there's a pool of blood on the floor and I think he sat on the bed, and he had her on his lap, across his lap while he was stabbing her.  Now, that's -- you know -- speculation, too.
But I think you would find O blood on his pajama bottoms if you had the pajama bottoms.

JUROR:  Mr. Woerheide.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Yes, sir?

JUROR:  As much blood as was in that house, if any intruders was in there, wouldn't they have stepped in there and let a shoe print other than a bare footprint?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I think, you know, especially if some intruder was running around, there was -- there were quantities of blood, and it's very likely.  It's very likely.

JUROR:  As much blood as is in there, they would have had blood on them somewhere.

JUROR:  In your speculation, then, Mr. Woerheide, assuming things went sort of this way, that Colette had anything to do with any of the killings whatsoever?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  No, I don't.  I don't think that -- we have no indication from anybody that Colette was that sort of a girl.
We do have testimony from a psychologist and a psychiatrist that MacDonald was quite capable of it under certain -- under certain circumstances.
It seems to me that on that particular weekend, those circumstances did exist.
There is the element of fatigue, being away, on a twenty-four hour stint at the Hamlet Hospital, and then he had a full day at the office, but he does a lot of other things, too, like playing basketball and going out and feeding the pony, and running some errands and this and that and other things.
Colette comes home.  She's been bringing up the problem of the bed wetting, and obviously it's a problem.  I mean you can see, there's two dried spots -- I mean two spots -- separate spots in Kimberly's bed where she had wet.
And one, of course, had dried out, and the other one, she probably had -- she probably wet when she died, but she did have some urine there.
And there's -- despite his absence of twenty-four hours at Hamlet, and what you would consider to be his fatigue, after a long full day, and he doesn't go to bed, I should think that would make his wife unhappy.  I should think it should, if she were irritated by something that he said to her, if he was criticizing her for letting Kimberly get in there and wet the bed where was he going to sleep --

JUROR:  Well, how do you account for the fact that she did wet the bed where he was going to sleep, that her bed was also wet under her?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, I suppose she had drunk quite a bit of water.

JUROR:  Wet twice?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Right.

JUROR:  Of course, I have heard when people die, they void and that sort of thing.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Right, and she may have wet the bed, as you know, anytime between twelve and two thirty, or say two or two thirty.

JUROR:  She could have wet once in her bed, that why he put her in bed with her mother when it was dry.

JUROR:  Was the wound that he had, had he fallen as he said he did into the edge of the hallway, or the living room, his pajama top wasn't heavy enough he should have bled through and there should have been some of his blood where he had been lying, right?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  If he -- well, all the information we have is that what wounds he did have were not serious wounds.
I think the one that bled the most was probably this one.  I think there was hardly any bleeding from this incision here.
There was no bleeding from his head.
However, if there was enough blood, you know, if he had had the wound when he was here, that he had when he was in this area or when he was in this area, I think there would have been some blood there.

JUROR:  Unh-hunh.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I mean if you accept his story that he was unconscious for a period of time after suffering certain injuries, if he had the wound while he was lying here, I think that there should be some blood there.

Q  Well he testified that the pajama tops had been pulled over his head, and they were around his arms.
So he was bare-chested lying there.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Right, he was bare-chested, and would have bled directly on the floor, yes, that's right.

JUROR:  Now, they also found some of Colette's blood on the wall in Kimberly's room.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  That's right.  Well, I think he had used the club in here, first.  I think he struck Kimberly with the club, although possibly accidentally.  Although maybe he -- he -- maybe it wasn't accidental.  Maybe she was shrieking, "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy," because he was fighting with her mother, and he hit her with the club to shut her up.
I think he used the club on both of them in this room.
Then I think he put Kimberly in here, and he used the club in here, and it had A blood on it, and he swung it so hard that he got it on the wall seven feet above the floor at this place.
I think the blood that -- A blood in that room comes from the club.  And I think he hit Kimberly with it so hard and when he went in this room after Colette had gone in here, and Mr. Stombaugh's theory that he hit her with the club here, and knocked her over against the wall, I think thereafter he put the club down on top of the green bedspread, and that it transferred to the bedspread some of the blood of Kimberly that had gotten on the club in this bedroom.  (Indicating on the diagram.)
That's how the AB blood gets on top on that bedspread.
Then I think he goes back into this room, that he strips the bed off, he strips the sheet, the top sheet and the -- and the bed cover off, it was probably just lying on the floor, I think he picked it up, picked them both up, took them in this room, laid the bedspread on the floor, got Colette off the bed and in the process of doing it, got a lot of blood on himself.
It was transferred all over his pajamas, and laid her down on there, then he covers her with a sheet, and he picks her up and he, in leaving the room, he steps on the bedspread and gets the blood on his feet which leaves the two footprints, and he carries her back here and lays her down.

JUROR:  Was Kristen supposedly alive all this time?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Ma'am?

JUROR:  Was Kristen supposedly alive all this time, when he got Colette off her bed?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I don't know when the stabbing of Kristen started, frankly, or actually the stabbing of Kim.
Kim didn't have to be stabbed.  You saw the way her skull was cracked.
By that, I mean, the stabbing you were -- you were stabbing a dying girl.
But I -- I just don't know when the stabbing started.  I think the first injuries were inflicted with the club.
Then I think he went in the kitchen and did get the knife and everybody got stabbed.

JUROR:  Mr. Stombaugh, that pajama top, regardless of whether it belonged to Mr. MacDonald or Charlie Brown, if he had had it on at the time it was stabbed, he would have been laying in the floor at the time with the rest of them, is that correct?

A  That's correct.  He would have -- if he had suffered all these ice pick wounds.  Either that or he would have had an awfully sore shoulder.  And a lot of those would have been into the chest, all the way up and down, too, and in the back.

JUROR:  Now, I heartily concur in the speculation set forth by you and Mr. Woerheide.  That's my part.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, I take it tomorrow we're going to meet down at the house, and --

MR. STROUD:  Well, before we think about dismissing, do you want to see the film of the Walter Cronkite interview, because we can do that today.  We still got the film.

JUROR:  Do you have it.

MR. STROUD:  Yes.

JUROR:  I want to ask you something of little significance.  Did you ever hear about the blood type of the little girl that came from Hamlet?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Did I ever hear what?

JUROR:  From the -- Hamlet, the little girl that had the appendectomy.

MR. STROUD:  The girl who had the appendectomy did not have O blood.

JUROR:  Did not have O blood?

MR. STROUD:  And we're still tracing down some others.

JUROR:  How did he with all this staging, he got Kristen's blood on his glasses and tossed them aside?

MR. STROUD:  Again, that could be part of the staging.  Speculation could indicate that would be part of the staging with the glasses.
Okay, then, I'll go ahead and make arrangements to bring in the projector and does anybody know how to operate a 16 millimeter projector?  You're the technical expert.
Okay, we'll get somebody.

15-minute recess.

(DUE TO TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES, THE WALTER CRONKITE INTERVIEW WAS NOT SHOWN.)

Whereupon, the Grand Jury Investigation was recessed for the day to resume at Fayetteville, North Carolina at 3:30 p.m., Thursday, January 16, 1975.