Grand Jury

October 23, 1974

Testimony of Richard Tevere (MP)

I, Mary M. Ritchie being a notary public in and for the state of North Carolina, was appointed to take the testimony of the following witness, Richard Dennis Tevere, before the Grand Jury, Raleigh, North Carolina, commencing at 9:30 a.m. on October 23, 1974.  All Grand Jurors present.

Whereupon, Richard Dennis Tevere, having first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Q  State your full name, please, sir.
A  Richard Dennis Tevere.
Q  Where do you live, sir?
A  2824 Cause Place, New York.
Q  What is your current occupation?
A  Advertising executive.
Q  What is the name of your company
A  Consumer Promotions, Inc.
Q  What is your business address?
A  625 Madison Avenue.
Q  Is that New York City?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And directing your attention to February 16, 17, 1970.  What were you doing then?
A  I was a military policeman on Fort Bragg
Q  How long had you been in military services?
A  I served two years, up to that point about eighteen months.
Q  Do you recall when you were discharged?
A  Twelve, August, 1970
Q  And were you on duty on the night of February 16, 17?
A  Yes, I was.
Q  What was your duty assignment?
A  I was assigned to patrol one area of Fort Bragg.
Q  What was that area?
A  Main post area.
Q  Did you have a partner?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  What was his name?
A  Spec. 4 D'Amore.
Q  Can you give us his first name?
A  Mario D'Amore.
Q  Will you spell his last name?
A  D'A-M-O-R-E.
Q  Now did your duty involve riding around in a jeep?
A  Yes, it did.
Q  When did you come on duty that night?
A  About eleven-thirty.  Midnight shift, I believe, start at eleven-thirty p.m. to seven-thirty a.m.
Q  Up until three o'clock in the morning, what sort of night was it?
A  Very rainy, windy night.
Q  Did you conduct patrols to the area that you were assigned to?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  What did you observe, if anything?
A  There wasn't much happening.  Just rainy.  Weren't many cars out.  Just very raw type of cold that night night.
Q  Did you see any people wandering around the street?
A  No.
Q  All right now.  Did you get a call?
A  Yes, there was a call over the radio which we had in our jeep and the call stated that there, I believe there was a domestic disturbance at 544 Castle Drive.  And this I know was in the housing area because I worked a lot in the housing area on Fort Bragg for the eighteen months that I there and one of the patrols said that they would take the call.  And I said I would back them up on this domestic disturbance.  A domestic disturbance usually involved a husband and wife argument or family disturbance or two neighbors arguing and so on.  Something of that nature.
Q  All right.  How far away from the location were you at the time you received this call?
A  Approximately two miles or mile.  Mile and a half, two miles.
Q  Were you driving?
A  Yes, I was.
Q  And D'Amore was sitting --
A  (Interposing) Passenger seat.
Q  Passenger seat to the right of you.  Is that right?
A  Yes.
Q  Now, will you tell us how you got to 544 Castle Drive?
A  We were on Reilly Road on Fort Bragg, proceeded down Reilly Road to Honeycutt Road, made a left on Honeycutt Road, and took Honeycutt Road right into North Dougherty, I believe it is, or North Lucas, which takes you a block from the housing area where Castle Drive is.
Q  Now while you were responding to this call, did you observe other jeeps?
A  We observed no other civilian vehicles.  I observed one other jeep and one other patrol car, I believe.
Q  Were they on route to the same location?
A  Yes.  I don't know, but I believe they were.
Q  Now did you notice any pedestrians or any --
A  (Interposing) No, nobody.  I didn't pass one civilian vehicle and I did not see any civilian or military personnel.
Q  All right, now, when you arrived at 544 Castle Drive what did you observe?
A  I got to 544 Castle Drive and there was Lt. Paulk and I believe one other MP standing at the door of this location and they were trying to gain entry and they could not because the front door was locked.  So, I took a flash light and proceeded around the back of the house because I knew all these houses had back doors.  And when I got around to the back of the house the screen door had been closed, but the hard wooden door was wide open, so I open the screen door and ran in.
Q  Were you accompanied by anyone at the time?
A  No, I wasn't.  I was alone.
Q  You were the first one in the house?
A  Yes, I was.
Q  How far did you proceed into the house?
A  I took a few steps into 544 Castle Drive and I went past the utility room which is a small utility room and into the master bedroom.
Q  All right.  Was the light on the master bedroom?
A  There was a small light on, yes.
Q  What did you observe?
A  I observed a male and female lying on the master bedroom floor.  The female was covered with blood and appeared to have been beaten or stabbed.  There was blood all over the floor and the male was lying next to her.
Q  Was he sort of lying with any part of his body against the female?
A  Yes.  He had his head against her chest or her arm on her left side.
Q  What did you do then?
A  I ran back out of the house to see Paulk.  I ran back out of the house and around to the front or to the side of the house and I saw two MPs.  And I told them to make some calls because I believed that someone had been stabbed and hurt bad, to call the FBI and Criminal Investigation.
Q  Do you recall who you saw?  Who you talked to?
A  I believe it was Morris.  Spec. 4 Morris and Spec. 4 Mica.
Q  These two men were familiar to you?  Is that is?
A  Yes.  They were also in the 503 MP Company, A Company.  Men I had spent time with.  They were also working on the midnight shift that night.
Q  All right now, after talking to Mica and Morris -- by the way Mica is M-i-c-a and Morris is M-o-r-r-i-s, what did you then do?
A  We ran back into the house and before going in I pulled my pistol and put a round in the chamber.  Then I believe Morris did the same.  Morris followed me into the house.  I told him to just watch the pistol because I was standing directly in front of him and we proceeded into the house.  And I stopped at the master bedroom again where there was a male and female and I walked down the hall to the steps where I observed the kitchen, living room and dining area.  Looked around and saw nobody in the house, put my pistol back into my holster and proceeded back to the master bedroom.
Q  As you went down the hall did you take a look into the side bedrooms?
A  Not when I went down the first time, no.
Q  All right now, when you got back to the master bedroom what did you do?
A  At that time Spec. 4 Mica was in the master bedroom and Captain MacDonald started to tell us that some hippies came into his house and started to give us descriptions of the people supposedly in his house.
Q  All right now, did there come a point when you gave him artificial respiration?
A  I didn't, but Mica did.
Q  Mica did.
A  He told us he was a doctor on Fort Bragg and that he believed he was going into shock and if he did go into shock to breathe into his mouth.
Q  Now, will you tell us everything that you can remember that Captain MacDonald said to you or said in your presence that you heard him say?
A  Well Captain MacDonald told us that he was a doctor, that he had been stabbed and he believed he was going into shock and wanted us to breathe into his mouth.  And then he said that a band of hippies invaded his home.  There was a blonde wearing a -- with long blonde hair wearing a floppy hat and boots.  There was a Negro wearing a field jacket and there were two white males.  And he said the blonde was carrying a candle in her hand walking around the house saying, "Acid is groovy, kill the pigs."  He repeated that several times and then he went on to ask -- he kept asking about his children and how his children were.  I just told him, "Don't worry about them, they will be all right.  Don't worry about them."  I didn't know at the time that they had been stabbed or that they were dead, but our main concern was to try and help him.
Q  Now in the master bedroom where MacDonald and the woman were, did you observe the condition of the bedroom?
A  Yes, I did.  The bedroom -- Mrs.  MacDonald, the female, was lying on the floor and she had a piece of blue pajama on her.  The bed had a wet spot on it and part of the sheet had fallen from the bed onto the floor.  I observed at the foot of the bed a clump of sheet with a lot of blood on it.  And on the headboard of the bed I observed the writing "Pig" in blood on the headboard of the bed.  [There] was also a knife in front of the dresser which I noticed and I pointed out to Spec. 4 Mica.  There were several blood stains on the walls and ceiling, blood spots.
Q  Did you do anything while you were in the room?
A  Yes, I did.  Spec. 4 Mica said we had better give Captain MacDonald mouth to mouth resuscitation because he looked like he going into shock.  So Mica started breathing into his mouth and I just loosened his pajama bottoms slightly and elevated his feet slightly.
Q  Now you say you loosened his pajama top -- bottom, how was he above the waist?
A  He was bare.  He had nothing on.
Q  Did you observe any injuries on the upper part of his body?
A  No.
Q  Did he seem to be actively bleeding at any point?
A  No, he was not.
Q  What else did you do?
A  At that time Lt. Paulk had come into the room and he was taking notes.  We had somebody call an ambulance, two ambulances, I believe, at that time.  And the ambulances had not arrived, so then -- well before I went out of the house I went into both of the smaller bedrooms, the children's bedrooms and observed puddles of blood in both rooms and it appeared that both children had been dead.  They were lifeless, because they were not moving at all.
Q  What did you do?  Just stand at the door?
A  One room I took about three or four steps into.  The other room I just observed at the door.  Yes, I did go in.  I assumed they were dead.
Q  Which room was it that you stepped into?
A  The front bedroom.
Q  Now did you notice a telephone in the master bedroom?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you do anything with respect to the telephone?
A  Yes, I did.  As we approached the house the radio dispatcher told us he believed somebody had been stabbed in the house or hurt and told us we had to gain entry to the house and use the phone to call the operator or the radio operator and let him know that everything was okay.  So when I got into the house the phone was off the cradle and lying next to the phone.  I picked it up, put it to my ear and it was dead.  I placed it back on the phone, never to use it again.  There was never any dial tone.
Q  To what extent did you touch the phone?
A  I used three fingers, to the best of my knowledge, picked it up and put it right back down.  Did not dial it, did not touch the buttons at all.
Q  Now, the phone, you say, was not in the cradle.  It was lying on top of the dresser?
A  Yes.
Q  Next to the cradle.  Now, did you, when you put it down, did you put it close to the edge of the table top?
A  Yes.  The phone was right on the edge of the dresser.  It was a table top there.  I just placed it down very quickly.
Q  Now you were down here last week in preparation for your appearance before the Grand jury, weren't you?
A  Yes.
Q  Was there any experiment conducted with that telephone at that time?
A  Yes, there was.
Q  And what happened when the phone sat down?
A  I sat the phone down the same way I did when I was on Fort Bragg and the phone, because it is attached to the cord slipped off the edge of the table and just left lying on the ground.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Will you mark this exhibit Tevere exhibit #1?


Q  Mr. Tevere, this is a photograph of the end of the dresser.  It was taken the morning after Mr. MacDonald had been removed from the premises, Dr. MacDonald, Captain MacDonald.  Can you state whether that was the approximate location of the phone on the edge of the dresser?
A  Yes, that was.  That was the location of it.
Q  And after you put the headset down, it dropped to the floor as it appears there.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.

FOREMAN:  When you first saw it why was it sitting on the end?  Will you hold that picture up to the Grand Jury.

A  The receiver, which is here, was lying on the backside on the other side of the telephone, lying the full length of the phone, right next to it.  It was not on the cradle, the receiver.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  This exhibit has already been marked exhibit #12 under the date of August 20, 1974.  Is that -- another picture which shows the relative position of the phone on the dresser top in relation to a chair in the corner of the room?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Is that the way you recall it?
A  Yes.
Q  Remember seeing this object in the lower left hand corner of the picture?
A  Yes, I do.  I pointed that out to Spec. 4 Mica at the time.
Q  And that object is what?
A  A knife.
Q  This is Ivory exhibit #15 of August 20, 1974.  Was that the position in which Mrs.  MacDonald was lying when you first saw her?
A  Yes.
Q  Was her body covered when you first saw her as it is now by the --
A  (Interposing) Yes, it was.
Q  The pajama and a white -- it appears to be a towel or bath mat.
A  Right.
Q  Now can you hold this up and indicate to the Grand Jury approximately where Mr. MacDonald was lying when you first saw him?
A  Mr. MacDonald, when I entered the house, was lying right next to Mrs.  MacDonald, same way.  Feet in this position.  His head was right up in this area, right here, more or less leaning against her.
Q  And did his body cover the dark sleeve of the pajama top?
A  Yes, it did.

MR. STROUD:  Was he on his back or his stomach?
A  He was more or less on his right side.  No, he was lying flat, but he was bent over onto his right side lying with his -- facing Mrs.  MacDonald.

MR. STROUD:  So as you were coming in you would have seen his face?  His face was toward the back door?
A  Right.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  How long was it after you entered the room that he first, let's saw, moved or said something or indicated that he was alive?
A  The first time I entered the room I didn't speak with him at all.  I was in and out in a matter of maybe three or four seconds.  I didn't spend any time in the house at all.  I was shocked when I ran into the room.  I ran back out and when I came back in the second time I guess, yes, maybe half a minute or so he started speaking to us.
Q  This has been marked as Ivory exhibit #25 of August 20, 1974.  Is this what you observed when you looked into the north bedroom?
A  Yes, it is.
Q  Will you hold you that up so the jurors can see it?

FOREMAN:  Was there any light on in the children's bedrooms or were they dark?

A  No, there was no light on in the children's bedrooms.  There was light on in the hallway.

FOREMAN:  But not in those two bedrooms.

A  No, no direct light.

FOREMAN:  You looked in with your flashlight.

A  There was a light in the hallway and it lit up the room someway, but I had a flashlight, also.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  And the light was on in the master bedroom too, was it not?
A  Yes.
Q  So there was light at the end of that hallway in two directions.
A  Yes.  The doorways to these bedrooms are right off the doorway of the master bedroom.  So the light from the master bedroom was able to cast some light into the rooms, enough that it wasn't pitch black dark, I would say.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Mark that Tevere #2, I guess.


MR. WOERHEIDE:  This has been marked as Tevere Exhibit #2 as of this date.  It's more of a close up picture of Mrs.  MacDonald.  Is that her appearance at the time you saw her?
A  Yes.
Q  Would you say his head was lying in this area?
A  Yes, it was.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  This is a picture, and this is where he indicated that his head was lying.  Captain MacDonald.

Q  This is a scene of the south bedroom taken right next to the door.  And this is a scene from further into the room.  Is that what you saw in the south bedroom?
A  Yes.
Q  All right.  These are Ivory exhibits #28 and #30 of August 20, 1974.  Here is a picture of the master bedroom showing a sheet and some other items on the floor.  Is that what you observed in the master bedroom?
A  Yes.
Q  Was this ajar like that?
A  Yes.
Q  Now looking from the hall, the end of the hall, back toward the master bedroom, you said you walked down the end of the hall and then walked back to the master bedroom.  Is this what you observed on the way back?
A  Right.
Q  That's Ivory exhibit #9 of August 20.

MR. STROUD:  What was the exhibit number on the previous photograph?  I don't believe you got that.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  That was Ivory exhibit #40.  Ivory exhibit #40 is the one that shows the location of the sheet and bedspread inside the sheet.  This sheet is some of the physical evidence that the FBI is examining.  It's just inside the bedroom after you come in from the hall on the right hand side.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Now getting back to the telephone.  At what point in time was it that you attempted to make this -- use this telephone?  You picked it up and put it to your ear and sat it down again.
A  About 3:50 a.m.
Q  How long was that after you arrived.
A  Maybe two minutes after I arrived into the house.
Q  Was it during the period of time that Mica was giving artificial respiration to MacDonald?
A  No it was before.
Q  Just before that?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Now how long did you stay in the house that morning?
A  I was in the house approximately twenty minutes, I'd say.  A Provost Marshal investigator came.  A few medics came.  They brought one stretcher in.  We placed Mr. MacDonald, Captain MacDonald, on the stretcher and I helped them wheel the stretcher down to the end of the hall at which point they took him to Womack Army Hospital.
     And then Colonel Kriwanek, who was the Provost Marshal of Fort Bragg came to 544 Castle Drive.  We went over briefly what had happened, what we knew.  And at that point we, Colonel Kriwanek, myself, Specialist Mica, I believe two other MPs, went back to the Provost Marshal's office on Fort Bragg.  And several other MPs and investigators stayed behind.  I know one of the photographers -- one photographer came and left because he got sick at the whole, you know, scene.
Q  So you were there about twenty minutes and prior to to the time you left, the CID agents had arrived, that is Mr. Ivory, and some other CID agents?
A  Correct.
Q  And Colonel Kriwanek had showed up.  How many people can you identify as having been in that house that morning while you were there in that twenty minute period of time?
A  I guess about six or eight.  Probably eight people.
Q  Well, give us their names.
A  There was myself, my partner, Mario D'Amore, Spec. 4 Mica, Spec. 4 Morris, Lt. Paulk, Spec. Dickerson, Spec. Sellick.
Q  How do you spell his name?
A  S-e-l-l-e-c-k.  Spec. Duffy, Spec. Williams, the photographer.  I'm trying to think.  I think there were two medics, two fellows that came from Womack Army Hospital that drove the ambulances.  They were dressed in field jackets and white pants.
Q  They brought in the litter that was used to remove him from the premises?
A  Yes.
Q  You assisted them in removing him from the premises?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  All right.  Who else?
A  Myself and Mica, and I'm not sure who else.  There were three of us, though.
Q  I mean let's complete the list of names now of the people that were there.
A  The two medics were there, Colonel Kriwanek was there.  There was Specialist Strope.
Q  How do you spell that?
A  S-t-r-o-p-e.
Q  Was he an MP?
A  Yes.  He was an MP.  There was this patrol supervisor, Sgt. Hageny. H-a-g-n-e-y.  And Sgt. Caldwell. C-a-l-d-w-e-l-l.
Q  Were all these people inside the house or did you encounter some of them outside the house?
A  To the best of my knowledge these were the MPs inside of the house.
Q  Now, you say you came into the master bedroom, you walked down the hall, took a look in the living room, dining room, kitchen area, there was light on down there.
A  Yes.
Q  In the kitchen?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  You have to say something or she doesn't get it down.  The answer is affirmatively?
A  Yes.
Q  Now you walked back to the master bedroom.  Now did you stay in the master bedroom until such time as MacDonald was put on the stretcher that was to --
A  Well, after Spec. 4 Mica and I -- well, Spec. 4 Mica gave him mouth to mouth resuscitation.  Lt. Paulk had asked why the ambulances had not arrived yet.  And he went next door, I believe, he opened the front door.  I'm not sure who opened the front door.  I believe he did and went next door to the neighbor's house and told them there was an accident here, or whatever, and he asked to use their phone.  And, about a minute later I went to the door and Lt. Paulk was on the telephone, I believe, calling Womack Army Hospital or the Provost Marshal's office.  I just spoke a few words to Lt. Paulk who made some notes and suggested that we, you know, put a broadcast out as to the persons that Captain MacDonald said were in his house.  And what other MPs were on the road or patrolling Fort Bragg look out for them.  I asked Lt. Paulk also if he wanted to call out the alert force.  We had ten or fifteen men team that stayed in the barracks that stayed on alert in case of any stockade problems or bad accidents or something of that sort.  Lt. Paulk, I believe, asked someone on the phone and they said, "No.  It wasn't necessary at the time."  And then went back into the house.  That's when the ambulance come with the stretcher.

FOREMAN:  I would like to ask you something.  When you walked down the hall, was anything lying on the floor of the hall that you had to move out of the way in order to walk down the hall?

A  No.  There were a few objects on the floor, but we did not move anything out of the way.

FOREMAN:  Where were they on the floor?  Do you remember?

A  There was -- I noticed a doll's head and part of a robe on the steps at the end the end of the hall leading to the living room.  There was nothing else, no other objects on the floor that had to be moved.

FOREMAN:  They were over near the corner against the wall?

A  Right.  Against the wall on the steps coming down.  There were two steps coming from the hallway down into the living room - dining room area.  And that's where the red object, red and white object --

FOREMAN:  Was the light on in the kitchen?  You didn't go into the kitchen, did you?

A  No.  I went as far as the dining area.  I looked into the kitchen.  I observed the phone, in the kitchen hanging straight down to the ground, and some dishes in a dish drainer.  But, I didn't try the kitchen door or anything.

FOREMAN:  All these people that you named came in through the back door?

A  I'm not sure.

FOREMAN:  You don't know who opened the front door?

A  No.  I don't.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Is this what was lying at the end of the staircase?
A  Yes.
Q  And can you indicate where the doll's head was in relation to this?
A  Right in this area here.

FOREMAN:  The doll's head is not in there, is it?  It's not in that picture, is it?

A  Well, there's something right here.  They questioned me about that several times and I said there was a doll's head.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I think this little speck here sort of sits out from the body of this.
A  It's on an angle.  It's taken on the angle.
Q  This is taken head-on from the living room.  You look at it from the opposite direction and you can see it -- you can partially see it -- you can see the end of it.  While we are on that subject -- when you assisted the medics in removing the -- I keep calling it a litter, but I don't know what the word is for it.
A  It's a litter.  A stretcher type litter.  It's a stretcher on a litter.
Q  When you got down to the end of the hall where these items are at the end of the stairs, how did you get down these stairs?
A  I was in the back, but they lifted the stretcher up because there was a two-step decline and they just wouldn't bounce a stretcher down two steps.  So they lifted the stretcher up and put it down on the living room floor.
Q  And went around the -- with their feet went around the garments there?
A  Yes.  I specifically said several times not to touch anything, not to press against the walls, or to move anything.  Because there was blood on some of the walls and some blood on the floor.  I repeated this several times.
Q  Before we get into that diagram, here is Ivory exhibit #19.  Can you identify that?
A  Yes.  This is a headboard that I observed in the master bedroom with the description -- inscription of the word "Pig" written in blood.
Q  And that also appears in Ivory exhibit #20 which I think you previously identified.
A  Right.  Yes.  That's true.
Q  All right, sir.  Now, you see a diagram on the board and this illustrates the testimony that some other person saw.  Well, let's get that out of the way.  Do you recognize this as the rear entrance, the utility room, the master bedroom, the closet, another closet, a lavatory, a closet, the south bedroom, a closet, a bathroom, the north bedroom, the dining room, living room, the kitchen, the front door?
A  Yes.
Q  All right.  Now, will you show us how you went in the first time, how far you went, how you went out, how you came back in the second time, and your movements throughout the dwelling?
A  This is the front door.  I came up to the front door.  Lt. Paulk and, I believe, his driver was standing there trying to gain entrance and they couldn't.  So, I took a flashlight and proceeded around the -- this was a small semi-attached house.  It was attached on this side, but it was open on this side.  It was all grass around here.  I went around the side of the house and came in the back door.  Here.  Took a few steps right into the master bedroom.  Here.  The first time I saw Mrs.  MacDonald and Captain MacDonald.  I ran back out around the house where I saw an MP.  Here.  I believe it was Morris and Mica.  I told them what happened and I ran back, came in the back door again with Morris behind me.  I believe Mica came in after Morris.  Saw Captain MacDonald and Mrs.  MacDonald lying right here.  Captain MacDonald next to her.
     Morris came in.  Mica came in.  And I came here down the hallway and stopped about here.  I looked -- from here I could see the kitchen, dining roomliving room area.  I didn't see anybody in any of the areas.  I just walked back and I believe I glanced into the bedroom.  I'm not sure.  Then went back into the master bedroom.  And when I came into the master bedroom -- that's when Mica was there.  And Captain MacDonald started to give us a description of hippies that had entered the house and so on.
     He then told us he was going into shock and so on.  So Mica started to give him mouth to mouth resuscitation and I elevated his feet.  And after a few moments he seemed to be breathing okay.  And he started to give another description.  It was at that time that I went right over here to where the phone was on the dresser, listened for a dial tone, put the phone back down next to the cradle.  And the phone was completely dead, no dial, no noise at all.  I then came back here and took a couple steps into, I believe, it was this bedroom and observed his one daughter with blood all over the bed, you know, on the bed, and so on, that she had been bleeding.  Came back out and I just stood in the doorway here and looked in and could see the blood on the floor and seeing again that the child was lifeless.  I went back into the master bedroom where Captain MacDonald again repeated himself about the blonde with the floppy hat, muddy, muddy boots.  And looked around and saw no mud at this time.  And I again stressed the point to the other MPs to watch where they were going, not to brush against the wall.  And it was at this time that I noticed the knife lying right next to the dresser.
     I snapped my finger, got Mica's attention, pointed to the knife, not to have Captain MacDonald hear me say that there was a knife lying there.  I noticed the headboard which is right there had the word "Pig" inscribed on it in blood.  Then some MPs came into the house during the course of the next few minutes, I guess.  And Lt. Paulk started taking notes.  And several minutes later I came down here into the living room.  I came out the front door which had been opened and went next door to see Lt. Paulk to find out why the ambulances hadn't arrived yet.  I came back into the house, walked straight back to the master bedroom.  It was maybe a minute, half a minute after that that the medic came in with the stretcher.  And the photographer arrived right after that, also.  We placed Captain MacDonald on the stretcher right here and somebody asked about the female and the other two children.  I said to leave them alone because I believed they had been dead.  They also summoned a doctor, I believe.  I'm not sure whether the doctor had arrived with the ambulance or exactly what the story was.  It was very confusing at that point.
     We then placed Captain MacDonald, who was lying here, on the stretcher.  And we were going to take the stretcher out, down the hall, through the living room, and out the front door where the ambulances were.  And then we put Captain MacDonald on the stretcher.  We got him on the stretcher and got as far as right here, the entrance to the south bedroom.
Q  The south bedroom?
A  Yes.  The south bedroom.  Here.  Captain MacDonald was grasping at the doorjamb, and kept asking about his daughter, how his children were and put up a struggle and got halfway off the stretcher.  He overpowered, I think, three of us to get off the stretcher at this point here.  He wanted to go in and check on his daughter.  And after a brief struggle we put him back, you know, laid him back onto the stretcher and carried him out.  I carried him down to this point here where the stairs are.  They lifted him down the stairs and brought him right out the front door.  I didn't go any further than here.  I believe there were a few MPs here.  They aided the medic and I believe it was Mica with the stretcher.  It was about that time that Captain MacDonald came out, or a minute or so later, that Colonel Kriwanek came in.
     I was in the living room area.  Here.  Colonel Kriwanek came in.  We spoke for a few minutes till, I guess, he looked into both bedrooms.  The CID had also arrived, walked back to the master bedroom, looked around, and then left through the front door.
Q  Tell me, in your training for services with the MPs are you giving any instruction or training in preserving the integrity of the crime scene?
A  Yes.  We are.
Q  And what are your instructions?
A  Basically, we were always told when you arrived at the crime scene to immediately start taking notes as to what you've seen, not to disturb anything, not to touch anything.  Only do -- if there is anybody lying there that seems lifeless, not to disturb him.  If there is somebody bleeding to do what you can just to preserve the person, to try and stop the bleeding, try to remember everything that you can, and stay calm.
Q  Now, apart from the telephone, did you touch or move anything else in the crime scene?
A  No.  The only thing that I touched -- the only thing I touched in the house was the door when I ran back out.  I opened the door from the outside to walk in the first time.  When I ran out, I believe I kicked the door open.  I don't remember.  When I came back in I opened the screen door again.  I touched nothing else, other than the telephone.
Q  Now, the other people who were present at the crime scene, did you observe them touch anything or moving or disturbing?
A  No.  Nobody did.  To the best of my knowledge nobody touched anything or moved anything.  And I specifically repeated myself not to touch anything.  I told them all to watch how they walked, to watch that they didn't touch any of the walls, because I observed there was blood on some of the walls and floor.  It was a wet night.  I just didn't want them trampling all over the house.  I repeated myself.  I also noticed, too, two pieces of wood and a knife outside of the house, outside the screen door in the back, right here, when I came in.  And I did not touch them either.  I just left them alone.  I didn't touch the knife I saw next to the dresser, right here.  I left that also.
Q  Now, to your observation, the various other MPs that -- and officers and personnel that came to the house, what position did they take inside the house?
A  Some of them stayed in the master bedroom.  To the best of my knowledge, most of them were right in the living room area, this area here and I believe right here.  As far as roaming around the bedrooms, they may have looked into the bedrooms, but no one stood, physically stood in the bedrooms for any length of time either one of these bedrooms.  I don't think anybody stood in the kitchen or the dining room area.  There was a table in the dining area.
     There wasn't too much room and I guess the largest area was here in the living room and here in the master bedroom.
Q  Now, did you observe a coffee table in the living room?
A  Yes.  I did.
Q  And did you observe a sofa?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you observe a couple of chairs?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you observe some magazines?
A  Yes.
Q  And what was the condition of the living room when you observed it?
A  Well, the couch was right here.  And there was a chair here, and there was a coffee table right across here.  It had been turned over onto its side so that the feet were lying across this way.  There were magazines under the coffee table and there was a little plant and a few other objects that I don't recall.

JUROR:  When you looked in the living room did you observe any glasses laying anywhere?  I mean eye glasses.

A  No.  I didn't, not at the time.

FOREMAN:  Have you seen these pictures before?

A  Some of them.  Yes.  I've seen -- in the picture there was a pair of glasses in the drape, but when I was there initially, I did not observe.  It's an impossible thing to observe every little detail when things happen like this.  It's impossible.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  What time would you say you left the crime scene that morning?
A  I guess, maybe, ten after three, ten after four, quarter after four in the morning.  I'm not really sure.
Q  You were there a total of about twenty minutes?
A  Twenty minutes, twenty-five minutes.
Q  And where did you go then?
A  We left -- I left there and went back to the Provost Marshal's office, Colonel Kriwanek's office on Fort Bragg.
Q  And you set up some sort of a command post there?
A  Yes.  He had -- I believe it was small conference room right next to his office.  And we went and sat down, took off some of our MP gear.  You know, that was lugging.  We took our helmets off.  We wear green scarves.  We undid our scarves, opened our shirts, just to relax.
Q  To you knowledge did the investigation continue that morning?
A  Yes.  A full investigation.
Q  What did the investigation consist of?  I'm not asking for all the details.
A  The provost Marshal's investigators were there.  The CID investigators were there.  And I'm not sure if the FBI had been called in.  I was told that they were going to be called in.  And we, and when I say we, most of us MPs were asked to write statements.  I, myself, and some other MPs wrote statements right at Colonel Kriwanek's office.  Again, asking what we did from the time we got the call, what we observed, and so on.  After I had spent about an hour or two in Colonel Kriwanek's office, we were told to speak to no one.  We asked if we could go back to the barracks to get some sleep.  We went back to the barracks, I guess, maybe six or seven o'clock in the morning, maybe a little bit later.
And I was only in the barracks about an hour, I guess, when a couple of criminal -- CID men came over and wanted to talk to me.  So I showered and I believe, I went to the Criminal Investigation Division at Fort Bragg.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Do any of the Grand Jurors have any --

JUROR:  I was wondering -- do you know which one of the men picked up the flower pot?

A  No.  I don't.

JUROR:  Do you think in picking up the flower pot, maybe he did some other things?  Since he did that, maybe he did something else that would change anything [something] at the scene.

A  To the best of my knowledge, nobody touched anything.  I wasn't in the living room at all times.  Now, when I was in the master bedroom, it is possible that he -- someone moved the flower pot.  I don't believe that anything else was moved, because nobody else said that anything was moved.  Anyone that would have moved the flower pot may have kicked it by accident because the pot was on the floor and it's a possibility.  But as far as anything else being touched or moved, clothing, objects, or phones, tables or whatever, no one to the best of my knowledge did or would have done it.

JUROR:  Do you know why they picked up the doll head and the garments up out of the hall and put them on the sofa?

A  No.  When I left they were still on the hall floor.  Now the only -- I was asked that several times.  The only reason I can think of is that maybe when they were taking the other bodies out of the house -- I don't know how the other bodies were removed or what time they were removed or whether they were on stretchers or exactly what they did.  So it's possible at that time they picked the garments up and moved them, but the garments were exactly where the photograph showed and they were not moved while I was there.

JUROR:  Did you see the kids well enough when you went into the room to know when looking at the pictures that they was exactly the way they were laid?

A  Yes.

JUROR:  They were on their sides.  They were not on their backs.

A  Yes.  The way the pictures indicate was the way the children were.  I remember distinctly because I just remember the one room where the child -- there was a big puddle of blood and her hand was lying, coming off the bed.

JUROR:  Was the milk bottle there?

A  Yes.

JUROR:  It was still there?

A  Yes.

JUROR:  How long after you got called to go to this address, how long would you say it took you to get there from where you were located?

A  A minute and a half.  Maybe two minutes.

JUROR:  From the time you got the call till the time you got there?

A  Yes.  Maybe a minute and a half.  We were only, as I said, about a mile and a half away.  And for some reason I was driving very fast.  It was a very cold night, rainy, windy night and I should not have been driving.  A jeep is only made to go, I think, forty, fifty.  I think the speedometer reads sixty miles an hour, and I was doing about fifty-five miles an hour.  My partner even mentioned to me.  He said, "You better slow this darn thing down, because you're going to flip the jeep."  Jeeps flip very easily.  I just had a feeling.  I don't know what it was.  I was there pretty quickly and when I got there there was another patrol already at the house.  So maybe the whole lapse of time was maybe a minute and fifteen, a minute and a half from the time we got the call till the time we got to the house.

JUROR:  During the time you were in the room, in the master bedroom, did Captain MacDonald appear to be seriously injured when he was lying on the body?

A  He didn't appear to be seriously injured.  No.  Not in comparison to his wife or the children.  He was not covered with blood as she was.  He did not appear to have any stab wounds or noticeable wounds that I could see offhand at that time.

JUROR:  Well during the time when you were rolling him out on the stretcher and he started to get kind of active, would you say then during that time that he appeared to be injured in any way?

A  At that time Mr. MacDonald, or Captain MacDonald, was lying vertical on a stretcher and with three MPs and myself and two other MPs there I think a little bit stronger and bigger than I was and he overpowered us trying to get off the stretcher.  And my feeling and thought is you've got to be a pretty big guy to overpower myself and two other guys who tried to hold him down.  We didn't beat him, though.  We just tried to ease him down.  But if you're seriously injured or if you are weakened, it's very hard to overpower three MPs trying to get off the stretcher.  After he got off the stretcher he more or less gave up.  We put him -- we lifted him back on.  He did not stand up in any way or kneel or walk or run.  He just overpowered us to get off the stretcher to get into one of the bedrooms.  We then put him back on the stretcher and carried him out.

JUROR:  That was the bedroom on the front side of the house?

A  Yes.  It was the bedroom right here.  I was on this side of the stretcher.  The stretcher was right here, I believe.  I was more or less toward the front of the stretcher and there was an MP here and one behind him also.  Then he got off the stretcher coming toward the front bedroom.  And the stretcher is only, maybe eighteen inches wide.  We just leaped over and brought him back down on the stretcher.  

JUROR:  Do you know whether there was a light on in that bedroom at that time or not?

A  No.  There wasn't a light on.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Here's a photograph of the living room.  It's identified as Ivory exhibit #6 of August 20.  From your initial appearance or from your initial look into the bedroom, into the living room rather, would you say that in general that is the way that it appeared?
A  Right.  It appeared basically this way.  The only difference I believe was the flower pot standing up, not on its side.  That was it.  It basically appeared that way.  The table was on its side, the magazines were under the table.
Q  Do you have a specific recollection of the flower pot having been on its side when you first saw it?
A  Yes.
Q  Well, was it on its side in the location where you see it now or the appropriate location?
A  I believe, to the best of knowledge, I believe it was on this side of the table.  Right there.  Here it shows being on the back side of the table.  
Q  Possibly a little closer to the root ball which is right there?
A  Right.
Q  The root ball was separated from the flower pot.
A  Yes.  It was.
Q  Now from your general observation, would you say that MacDonald, when he was speaking was coherent?
A  Yes.  He was coherent.
Q  He was lucid?
A  Yes.
Q  He was aware of the situation at that time?
A  Oh, yes.  He was very much aware.
Q  And he was aware of the situation of his wife, who was lying on the floor next to him?
A  Yes.
Q  And would you say he was in full control of senses?
A  Yes.  I think so.
Q  And from his, let's say, the force and energy that he used in getting off the stretcher when you were trying to restrain him there, he was probably in good condition?
A  Yes, he was considerably strong.
Q  He wasn't incapacitated?
A  No.  He was not maimed or by any means incapacitated.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Any other questions?

JUROR:  Did he speak to you the first time you entered the house?

A  No.  I only stayed in the house a few seconds.

JUROR:  I mean if he was conscious he would have been aware that you were there, though?  Wouldn't he?

A  I don't know if he knew I was there.  I didn't waste time to hang around, to tell you the truth.  I ran in and I ran out twice as fast.

JUROR:  Did they stake the MPs around the house?

A  I didn't hear that.

JUROR:  Did they station MPs around the house?

A  Yes.  They did.  We stationed an MP -- we stationed several MPs around the house.  We have one MP, I don't recall who it was, taking license plate numbers of all plates in the area, in the parking area.  And I believe they broadcast over the radio to the different MPs who were on the road to be on the lookout for these suspects.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well the description he gave to you was relayed to headquarters right away.  Is that it?
A  Yes.  Right.
Q  A blonde girl with a floppy hat and candle.
A  Muddy boots.
Q  Muddy boots?  Black man and two white guys.
A  Right.  Said a male Negro wearing an army field jacket and he believed he had Staff Sergeant strips on it which are E-6.  He said E-6 stripes which are Staff Sergeant stripes, and two white males, Caucasians.

JUROR:  You said in the master bedroom on the sheet you noticed a wet spot?

A  Yes.

JUROR:  Now was that the middle of the bed?  Where exactly was the wet spot?

A  I don't have a picture of the bed here.  It wasn't toward the headboard.  In other words, this is the bed.  It's not a good picture, but -- it was more or less in the middle, but down toward the end.  It was not up near the top.  It was fairly -- well, it was not a small area.  It was a nice size area.  I noticed that it was wet because it was different color than the rest of the sheet were.

MR. STROUD:  Did you actually feel it to determine if it was wet at that time?
A  No.  I didn't.  I just assumed it was wet.  It looked wet.

JUROR:  So it was more or less on the side of the wall, rather than to the facing wall.  Is that right?

A  Pardon.

JUROR:  The spot was more to the side of the wall then rather than to the front of the bed?

A  No I think it was in the center of the bed.

JUROR:  In the center of the bed?

A  Yes.  But what I am saying it was not toward the headboard.  It was more toward the foot of the bed than the headboard.

JUROR:  What I am trying to get at -- if a child had slept there, which side of the bed would she have been sleeping on?  The backside or the front side, if that's what the wet spot was?

A  I couldn't answer that intelligently.

JUROR:  I'd like to ask you a strange question that may appear strange to you.  When you went around the house did you hear any noises of any kind?

A  No.  I heard nothing.

FOREMAN:  No dogs barking at you.

A  No.  No.

FOREMAN:  Did you hear a dog bark or any dogs barking at any time you were outside the house?

A  No.  To the best of my knowledge I didn't.

FOREMAN:  If it had been a large size dog you would probably have heard it?

A  Sure.  Yes, I would have heard a dog bark.  It was quarter to four in the morning.  You could hear a car start up two blocks away.  That's how quiet it is when everything is very still.  It had stopped raining, but everything was still and quiet.

MR. WOERHEIDE: Well, let me ask you this.  Answering a call of this type, if the dog had barked, would you have paid any attention to it?
A  I didn't really know what kind of a call it was.  It could have been an ordinary disturbance.  I guess the eighteen months I was on Fort Bragg I handled at least one or two domestic disturbances a week.  It was usually children fighting or adults fighting because of the kids and the housing areas were close to each other.  There were always arguments over something, parking space or whatever.  Small, everyday arguments, run of the mill type thing.

FOREMAN:  You had your flashlight on at the time you were moving to the back of the house?

A  Yes.  It wasn't my flashlight.  I believe it was Spec. 4 Morris' flashlight.  My flashlight was in the jeep.

FOREMAN:  But you were flashing a light when you went to the side of the house?  What I'm saying is if there were animals in the back there, there is no way they could miss hearing and seeing the light and probably would respond with a bark or something of some nature, especially with the amount of people that were going around the house, especially if they were use to barking at strangers.

A  If they would bark at strangers, they may not have seen me, but I am sure that many of the MPs that came around the house after me, because I went around and came back again.  If a dog was there --

FOREMAN:  You didn't see or hear anything?

A  No.  I saw or heard nothing.

FOREMAN:  Was there any blood on the chair that was in front of Mrs.  MacDonald body?  Did you observe any blood?

A  Yes, I saw blood smears on the chair.  In other words there were not puddles of blood, but there was a reddish cast on the green chair.

FOREMAN:  On the front of the chair facing her?

A  On the cushion on the front facing her.  Right.

JUROR:  When you answer calls like this, do you go quietly or lights flashing and sirens going?

A  Quietly.  There's no -- Fort Bragg had a code system -- code one, code two, code three.  When they gave you a call, a domestic disturbance, unless they state that there was fighting or violence involved, knives, guns, someone hurt, an auto accident, or whatever, you usually went under normal circumstances.  If you approach an intersection you were told to look both ways even if you had your red light and siren on, we were told to look both ways.  And in the case that night, we -- I had the red light on, but no siren.  There was no need for the siren because there was nobody on the road.  When I approached each intersection I went through two or three intersections, at Honeycutt and Reilly and one at Honeycutt and Knox and the last one before I turned into the the housing area, Honeycutt and North Dougherty, North Lucas.  I'm not sure.  I looked both ways.  This was a force of habit.  I saw no cars.  The only thing I saw when I got to Knox and Honeycutt was I looked left and right.  I saw one jeep and one MP vehicle coming up either side.  How I know is that jeeps have red lights and MP vehicles have blue, flashing, bubble type lights.  That was the only thing I saw.

MR. STROUD:  I have a few questions I would like to interject at this point.  You say you were patrolling the main post area.  That include Corregidor Courts?

A  No, it doesn't.

MR. STROUD:  Who was patrolling that area that night?

A  I don't know.  I believe it was Patrol Four.

MR. STROUD:  Do you know who Patrol Four was?

A  No.  I don't.

MR. STROUD:  What makes you think it was Patrol Four?
A  Because the post was split up, I think, into -- at one time it was split up into ten patrols and then they cut it down to six or seven.  There was a main post patrol, a basic training patrol, the Corregidor Courts - Anzio Acres patrol.  That's what they called the 82nd Airborne end of the patrol.  Also, it was handled by the 82nd Airborne.  
Q  Did you ever patrol, as part of your duties, Corregidor Courts?
A  Yes.  I was very familiar with that housing area.
Q  How often would you make a round there on a night shift?
A  There was no set time how you would make a round.  You would go through the housing area six or eight times a night very easily.  The housing areas were not that big and if you rode through them at five or ten miles an hours, you go through Anzio Acres and Corregidor Courts at least once an hour.
Q  All right.  You mentioned in your testimony when the call came about the domestic situation that one of the other patrols said they would go and you called in and said you would back him up,
A  Right.
Q  Do you know who the other patrol was?
A  I believe it was Sergeant Hageny and Sergeant Caldwell.  What they generally do is when there is a domestic disturbance of this type the majority of the enlisted men that are on Fort Bragg or the majority of the officers on Fort Bragg have a rank of E-6 and above which is a Staff Sergeant and above.  So what they generally try to do when there is a domestic disturbance, they try to send a man with a highest rank or one of the men with the highest rank on that patrol to the domestic disturbance.  Because if an E-6 or E-7 sees a sergeant show up he wouldn't be too apt to give him back talk and give him a hard time.  But if he's see a private or Spec. 4 who is an E-4 show up, he may try to swing his weight because he is an E-6 or an E-7.  That was the basic feeling.
Q  Were Hageny and Caldwell there when you arrived?
A  No.  I think they pulled up almost the same time as I did.
Q  Okay.  Who was there at the front door beside Paulk and his driver?  Anybody else?
A  No.  I think it was just Paulk and his driver or Morris was there.  I think Morris was there.  Morris was there.  He's the fellow I took the flashlight from.  He was working with Mica.
Q  So you think Mica and Morris were there when you arrived?
A  Yes.  I didn't see Mica in the beginning but I did see Morris because he's the fellow I grabbed the flashlight from.
Q  Who was Paulk's driver?  Do you recall?
A  I think Spec. 4 Dickerson.
Q  And they were trying to get in the front door.  Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  Were they knocking or --
A  I saw them trying the door and banging on it and there was no answer.
Q  So when you went into the house the first time, you were by yourself.  You went in there some three or four seconds.
A  Yes.  Just enough to take four steps into the house and fall right back out.
Q  Was MacDonald unconscious at that time or could you tell?
A  I believe he was.  I --
Q  Was he moving?  Did he say anything?
A  No.  He said nothing.
Q  Said nothing.
A  If he did, I didn't hear him.
Q  Was his head -- did he lift his head up?  Move in anyway when you first went into the house?
A  To the best of my knowledge, no.
Q  But as far as you know his eyes were open and he was conscious or appeared conscious.
A  He appeared conscious.  Right.
Q  You said there was a small light on in the bedroom.  Do you know where it was emanating from?
A  I think the lamp right by the phone, but I'm not sure.
Q  It wasn't the overhead light?
A  It could have been.  I don't remember.
Q  Were there any other lights in the house?  You mentioned in the hallway there was a light on.  You mentioned there was one in the kitchen.
A  In the kitchen - dining room area, yes.  I remember there was none in the living area, but there was enough light being portrayed from the kitchen - dining room area.  And there was a light on in the hallway along this long hall right here.  I think in this area right here there's a light that lit up this bedroom and this bedroom somewhat.
Q  Any other lights besides in the kitchen - dining room area, hallway and master bedroom?
A  No.  I think in the bathroom there was light on.  I didn't go over the bathroom thoroughly, but I passed by it and I believe there was a light on in the bathroom.
Q  The door -- you say the inside door was open.  The screen door was closed.  Was the inside door all the way opened or cracked to some extent?
A  No.  It was all the way open.  I did not have to touch it.  I didn't have to move it to go into the house.
Q  Now, when MacDonald was describing what had happened, in your testimony you used the word "hippies", "a band of hippies."  Were those his words?
A  Yes.
Q  There is no question in your mind about that?
A  No.  No question in my mind.
Q  Did he give any explanation to you at any time as to why he called them hippies?
A  No.  I didn't question him.  That is what he said.  We wrote down what he said.  We didn't question him as to why are they hippies.  We didn't go into that.  It wasn't up to us to question.  If he said it, we felt he meant what he said.
Q  With regard to the girl having a candle in her hand, was that a clear impression?  Was this something he seemed definite about?  Or was he hesitant in saying this?
A  No.  He repeated it several times.  Blonde.  A girl with long blonde hair.  He used the word floppy hat.  He said she had muddy boots on and she was carrying a candle, walking from room to room saying "Acid is groovy.  Kill the pigs."  And he said this more than once.  He said it -- he said it in the presence of more than myself.  There were other MPs in the room when he said this.
Q  And he was using the language that she was walking.  Did he say walking --
A  (Interposing) From room to room.  Right.  With the candle, saying, "Acid is groovy.  Kill the pigs."
Q  In what manner did MacDonald express himself?  Was he excited?  Was he calm?
A  Calm.
Q  He was basically calm?
A  He wasn't excited excited.  He wasn't hysterical.  He was pretty calm.
Q  Did he scream or yell at times?
A  No.
Q  Was he -- did he show any emotion of any kind?  For example, when he trying to get into the bedroom there.  Did he show any emotion of any kind?
A  All he kept saying was, "Check my kids, check my kids.  I want to see how my daughters are.  I want to see how my daughter is."  That was it.  That was the extent of the emotion.  No crying, no screaming, no yelling.  Nothing of that type.

JUROR:  Did daughters seem to be plural or singular?

A  Pardon.

JUROR:  Did daughter seem to be plural or singular?

A  He mentioned daughters.  And he said check my kids.

MR. STROUD:  When you loosened his pajama bottom did you notice anything about the pajama bottoms as to blood, tearing?
A  No.  I didn't notice any torn pajamas.  I think there was a little blood, maybe a couple specks of blood on them.  There was no great amount of blood on him.  He was fairly clean.  He had no shoes on.  No socks on either.  I noticed that.
Q  Did you notice anything about [the] knife in particular?  Did you notice blood on it, for example?  The knife in the bedroom.
A  Yes.  There was blood on the knife that was next to the dresser.  There was blood on it.
Q  Was it on the blade?  Handle?
A  On the handle and blade, I believe.
Q  Did he ever lose consciousness?  MacDonald?  That you are aware of?
A  Well, he appeared -- he said that he was going into shock.  He said, you know, make sure I don't swallow my tongue, I think.  It was another thing that he had said.  But if he lost consciousness, it wasn't for more than a couple of seconds at the most, if he did.  Mica did not give him mouth to mouth resuscitation long.  I know that.  You know for any period of time, half a minute or a minute.  I don't believe he did.
Q  Sergeant Caldwell -- Can you give us the full name on Caldwell?
A  John Caldwell was his full name.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  By the way, Mr. Tevere, you were going to bring down some sort of roster with you.  Did you do that?
A  No.  I didn't.  I don't have a roster of who was on the post that night.  I have roster of some of the fellows that were in the company and their social; security numbers.
Q  We would still like to have that.
A  I could send it down.

MR. STROUD:  Can you give us any further information about Caldwell?  Where we might locate him?
A  Caldwell was living in Kansas City, Kansas, or Kansas City, Missouri, I believe.  He got out of the army about two weeks after I did.  I think Brian Murtagh was trying to locate him and I thought he had.
Q  Well, that's a name that doesn't ring a bell.
A  He was my roommate.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Do you ever get a Christmas card from him?
A  No.  We don't keep in touch.  Can't keep in touch with all of them.  There were 150 guys.  I stay in touch with maybe six or seven of the fellows I was in the army with that are from my area.  But that's it.

MR. STROUD:  How long after you first got there and I know things got excited there, but after you first got there until MacDonald was removed, how much time elapsed?
A  About ten minutes or so.
Q  Now you mentioned in your testimony that when you saw the knife you pointed it out to somebody.
A  Mica.
Q  But you didn't say anything because you didn't want MacDonald [to] hear you all.
A  I just snapped my fingers and got Mica's attention and pointed to it.  And that was it.
Q  Why didn't you want MacDonald to hear it?
A  I just didn't want to excite him.  I didn't want to say, "Hey, there's a knife."  There was no need to say -- to tell Captain MacDonald or ask him what that knife is.  It was evident that there was blood on the knife and the knife was lying next to his wife.  It was pretty clear to me that that was one of the weapons used to kill his wife.
Q  All right.  Did you have -- looking back on it now and taking into consideration the twenty minutes that you were there did you have any impressions about who might have been responsible for the death of the wife and two children?  One way or the other?
A  The only thing that I said to myself -- I didn't speak to anyone about it.  But it just puzzled me to think --  to see that his wife and two children were killed and battered as bad as they were and nothing had happened to him.  He wasn't bleeding, he wasn't bloody, he wasn't unconscious.  To me it seemed like -- well, why did they just kill the wife and two children and not touch him?  Or hit him or whatever.  Knock him out.
Q  Was this an impression you had at the time?
A  Yes.  It was bewildering.  I couldn't understand it.
Q  Did you form any other impressions at that time about what may have happened?
A  I thought to myself when he was explaining that there was a blonde with muddy boots -- if you step in mud or step in water or whatever, paint.  It's got to leave some impression.  If the girl was walking around the house with muddy boots on there should have been some footprints or some mud -- something in the house and I didn't, at first, notice it.  And, again I said he repeated that there was a blonde with muddy boots, long blonde hair with a floppy hat.  And I noticed no evidence of mud in the house.
Q  Did you form any other impressions?
A  No.
Q  Have you formed any impressions since then as a result of what took place during the twenty minutes you were there and observed things that you have described?
A  Specifically, what are you asking me?
Q  Do you have any impressions now other than those you have voiced about who may have been responsible for the deaths as a result of what you observed there?
A  I think there is no doubt in my mind that Captain MacDonald did it.
Q  Is there anything that you have not testified to that would lead you to this impression?
A  No.
Q  In other words, you pretty well told everything that would lead you to this impression?
A  Yes, I've told -- well, I'm sure everybody's read the same thing I've read in the newspapers, different things that he has said.  He was on a show, things he said on the show.  I found conflicting statements on it because I was there.  He explained that he was stabbed multiple times, seventeen times in one session, twenty-three in another.  That was all over a live TV show.  And he wasn't stabbed seventeen or twenty-three times.
Q  You've explained -- were there other people there during the twenty minutes other than the ones you've referred to by name and by description?  You described the photographer and two medics.  Were there any other persons that you are aware of whether you can name them or not that were there?
A  That was all the people that were there to best of my knowledge.  There was no one strange in the house.  Everybody that was in the house was either an MP, the fellows driving the ambulances, two medics, the photographer.
Q  Can you remember specifically what any of these people were doing?  You said Paulk was talking notes.  How about Morris and Mica?  D'Amore, Dickerson, Sellick, Duffy?  Can you remember what any of these people were doing there?
A  No.  Not too much.  And at one point we cleared some of them out of the house.  There was no need for eight people or ten people to be milling around the house.
Q  Now you mentioned in your notes a piece of wood and a knife as you were going into the house.  Which time was that?  The first time?
A  Second time.  I didn't notice anything the first time.
Q  Do you have any idea who turned the flower pot upright?
A  No.  No idea.
Q  Do you recall the light outside behind -- in the area behind the house?  Between it and the other apartment?
A  There wasn't much lightening at all.  It was pretty dark.  It was not well lit.  There were no spot lights or lamp posts around to the best of my knowledge.  It wasn't pitch black, but it wasn't well lit.

MR. STROUD:  I think that's about all that I had.  Thank you.

FOREMAN:  How many people interviewed you about this crime after February of that year?

A  To date?

FOREMAN:  Just until you left the army.

A  I spoke with the Criminal Investigation Division, I guess several times.  Captain MacDonald's two civilian, two military men.

FOREMAN:  His attorneys?

A  Yes.  Interviewed me once.  That was Douthat and somebody else.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Douthat and Malley.
A  Two prosecuting attorneys contacted me.  Thompson and Summers [Somers].  And that was it.
Q  And you testified at the Article 32?
A  Yes.  I did.

FOREMAN:  One other thing.  Did you -- were there any odors in the house or on MacDonald or anywhere in the general area that you recognized as being out of the ordinary or caught your attention?

A  I thought there was one odor that smelled a little funny and I couldn't put my finger on what the smell was, you know.

FOREMAN:  Was it in the bedroom?

A  Yes.  I'm not sure if it was the smell of blood or exactly what it was.  It was something that just didn't smell as clean air.  It could have been, I guess, most anything.

FOREMAN:  But it was only in the bedroom that you detected that different odor?

A  Yes.

MR. STROUD:  What did it smell like?  Can you say it smelled like anything?

A  No, I can't.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Was it like medication?
A  It wasn't a smell.  It wasn't something that you could detect or say it smelled like something.  It was just something I had never smelled.  It could have been medicine.
Q  You were pretty close to MacDonald when he was being placed on this litter and being moved from the house.  Would you associate that odor with MacDonald, himself?
A  Yes.
Q  You think it came from him?
A  Yes.  I think it did.

FOREMAN:  It smelled clinical like in a medical clinic?  You know those odors are pretty detective.  They are very different.

A  It was an odor similar to that.  It was not an odor -- of something.

FOREMAN:  It was just different.

A  Yes.  It was a different odor.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Would you associate it with medicine?
A  Yes.  I would.  I thought maybe it was Captain MacDonald's breath, at first.  But it didn't seem to be that.  It could have from from his face or his hands or whatever.  It was just something that I couldn't put my finger on, put my life on as to say.

MR. STROUD:  How about the odor of a burning candle?  Did you smell that anywhere in the house?
A  No.
Q  That's a pretty distinctive type odor.
A  Yes.  I think if anyone smelled a burning candle, they would know it.  I would.

FOREMAN:  Did you ever have any experience with drugs while you were in the MPs or in the military service at Fort Bragg?

A  What do you mean experience?

FOREMAN:  Did you ever, say, arrest anyone or question anyone for possession or use of drugs?

A  Yes.

FOREMAN:  Were you ever on the scene where drugs were being used or people that were under the influence of drugs that you were there with them?

A  Yes.

FOREMAN:  Was this odor anything similar to what you smelled in the MacDonald house?

A  No.  You're talking about a marijuana smell?

FOREMAN:  That one you probably would recognize had it been that?

A  Yes.  To the best of my knowledge.  I don't know what LSD smells like or anything like
that.  But it was not a marijuana smell.

FOREMAN:  None of the drug smells that you had had any experience with that you could identify as being in the MacDonald house?

A  No.

MR. STROUD:  I have one other question.  Did you take notes?
A  No.
Q  Back during the time or afterwards?
A  Afterwards.  Yes.  Well, I didn't take notes, but I wrote my statement.
Q  Right.
A  Which was maybe a half an hour after all this happened.  I wrote a statement in longhand.
Q  Do you find that your recollection now of the whole thing is pretty vivid?  Do you still remember fairly well?
A  Oh, yes.  It something --

FOREMAN:  You don't forget it, do you?

A  You don't forget something like this too easily.  Some of the minute details I couldn't swear to.  I wouldn't stand up here and swear at the very small things, but the basic -- ninety-five percent, ninety-eight of what I've said is what I recall.  I'm not guessing.

FOREMAN:  Anybody else have any questions?

JUROR:  Yes.  I do.  At that particular time you said you went back into the house twice and the same people that were with you.  Was that you and only one more MP the only ones to your knowledge that went into the back door?

A  No.  I know several other MPs did come in.

JUROR:  They did come in the back door?

A  Yes.  Morris came in right behind me.  When I say right behind me, he was on my heels.  He was so close that when he had his pistol out, the pistol couldn't have been more than four inches away from my back.  As I went through the door, it was only thirty inches wide, and when I went through it the first thing that ran through my mind was that the pistol was right in my back.  And when this guy saw Mrs.  MacDonald lying there he may get nervous and pull the trigger.

JUROR:  What I want to know is -- it was raining and the grass was wet and you mean you all didn't tote no grass, no mud, no nothing in?

A  It was not raining at that time.  It had rained during the night, but, no, there was no grass in there at that time.

JUROR:  Was there any evident puddles of water in the walkways around the house?

A  No.  It was all grass, I believe, around the house.  To the best of my knowledge, I didn't step in any puddles that I know of.  I could have stepped in a puddle to my ankles and not know it.

JUROR:  The way Fort Bragg is, so much sand, it will soak in the ground as it hits the ground.

A  Yes.  It had rained, but Fort Bragg was a dry place.

JUROR:  Just soak right on down.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I'm concerned about our time situation.

JUROR:  Could you walk around during this time without a light?

A  Walk around where?

JUROR:  In the area without a light, for instance.  Was it light enough to where you could go anywhere?

A  The area inside the house?

JUROR:  No.  Outside the house.  Could you walk out without having a light?

A  Yes.

FOREMAN:  Any more questions?  Okay.  Thank you.  The only thing I wanted to remind you was that the subpoena that you received in this first appearance will stay in effect until the end of the hearing.

MR. STROUD:  In other words, the Grand Jury might want to call you at some later time.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  May the witness be excused, Mr. Foreman?

FOREMAN:  Yes.  Thank you, sir.

Webmaster note: 
The original stenographer's misspelling of Hagney was corrected to Hageny in this transcript.