Grand Jury

August 27, 1974

Testimony of Pamela Kalin (recalled)

Miss PAMELA KALIN was recalled to testify in the afternoon session, August 27, 1974 beginning at 2:45 p.m. before the grand jury.

Miss Kalin resumes the stand.


Q  Okay.  I would like to remind you, Miss Kalin, that you are still under the oath you took earlier in the day to tell the truth.  Okay?
A  Right.
Q  Now after you were here earlier in the day and I questioned you, ay my request, Mr. Murtagh, who is working with us, went through some photographs of the house with you to see if this would bring back anything to you, recharge your memory in any way.  Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  Now, also with preference to some other questions that I have of you, I believe you stated to me yesterday, that you really hadn't thought of this matter, the incident, the circumstances surrounding it with regard to the death of the wife and two children in the MacDonald family.  You haven't really given it much thought since the occurrence four years ago.  Is that right?
A  No.  I kept it out of my mind.
Q  Now since -- and I've talked with you a good while yesterday and again this morning.  As we going through this and as I was asking you questions, did you find things coming back to your memory?
A  Yes.
Q  That previously you had not thought of?
A  Yes.
Q  Now is it my understanding at this point that you have some further recollection which came to you today with regard to the ice pick which I earlier asked you about in the day.  Is that true?
A  Right.
Q  Would you go ahead and state for the grand jury what that recollection is, please?
A  I remember using the ice pick that was on top of the refrigerator to get Popsicles and ice cream out of the freezer which was always very full and I needed to break the ice away in order to get the Popsicles out or whatever.
Q  Is there anything in particular that jogged your memory about that, about the Popsicles and the ice pick?
A  Just -- No.  I was just relaxed after being here, and all of a sudden I just remembered it.  I thought I recognized the ice pick, but it never really occurred to me.
Q  All right.  Were you tense when you were before the grand jury earlier?
A  Yes.
Q  Are you tense now?
A  No.
Q  So you say during a period of relaxation after being before the grand jury it came back to you?  This recollection?
A  Right.
Q  Have there been any other recollections that came back to you?
A  No.
Q  Now showing you this ice pick now, I believe earlier in the day you said that you thought, as I recall your testimony, you thought that they had an ice pick in the house.  Right?
A  Right.
Q  Right now you are sure they had an ice pick in the house and that the ice pick was kept on top of their refrigerator?  Is that right?
A  Yes.
Q  Can you recall actually using the ice pick to get something out of the freezer?
A  Yes.
Q  On how many occasions?
A  Twice that I remember.  I don't know other than that.
Q  And you are sure that this was in connection with the MacDonald residence?
A  Yes.
Q  Now do you have any further recollection about being able to identify this particular ice pick?
A  The color.
Q  The color?
A  The light color of it.
Q  All right, now.  So I take it you cannot say that this was the ice pick, but was it an ice pick like this one?  In color, shape, and design?
A  Yes.
Q  That was in the house?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Now has anybody put that thought in your mind or is it something that you came to on your own?
A  I came to it on my own.
Q  Now, did you see the ice pick in the house, anywhere other than on top of the refrigerator?
A  Not that I can remember, no.
Q  But that's where it was normally kept?  Is that a proper understanding?
A  Right.
Q  Now, can you recall -- you talk about other places that you babysat at, can you recall there being an ice pick at any of those places?
A  No.
Q  Can you recall that there was not that you were aware an ice pick at any of those places?
A  I never found any if there were.
Q  How about in your own house?  Did you have an ice pick there?
A  Yes.
Q  What type was it in relation to this type?
A  It was an old one and it was painted and the paint was all chipped off.  And it was a dark color.  Gray and black, or something.
Q  I believe earlier that you told me that it also had a ring on the end of it.
A  Yes.
Q  And the handle where you could hang it on something.
A  Right.
Q  Where did you keep the ice pick in your home?
A  Where you put the ice cubes, where you open the freezer door inside the freezer.
Q  Did you ever see this ice pick used by anyone else in the MacDonald household?
A  No.
Q  Or one that looked like this one?
A  No.
Q  All right.  I have one other question with regard to the rocking chair in the living room in relation to the coffee table.  Was the position that it was normally kept in, like here?  Here's the couch, coffee table, and the chair.  Was it normally kept in this position facing at this angle or a different angle?
A  It was facing the dining room and stereo and it was close to the curtains.
Q  Facing the dining room and stereo?  Would it have been more at an angle, this way?
A  Yes.
Q  Was it ever flush to the coffee table, like this?
A  Yes.
Q  Do you understand what I am saying?
A  Yes.
Q  Was there a walk space between it?
A  Yes.
Q  Between the coffee table and the chair?
A  Yes.
Q  By flush, I mean right up next to the coffee table.  Did you ever see it like that?
A  No.
Q  All right now, is there any other recollection you have about the ice pick?
A  No.
Q  Or about anything else that you feel like is relevant to this inquiry?
A  No.

MR. STROUD:  Anyone have any additional questions?

JUROR:  I have one.  Did the children often have the occasion to play on the coffee table any games?

A  They would use it to, yes, color in coloring books, I remember.

JUROR:  I have one.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  When they did that, would they sit on the floor and just use the coffee table as a writing surface?

A  Right.

JUROR:  Where in the kitchen was the stool normally kept and what was it used for?

A  As you walk in, it was kept on the wall close to the door.  And I can remember Kim using it to get up to get candy out of the cabinet.

JUROR:  As you walk in from the dining room --

A  (Interposing)  The dining room.

JUROR:  Or from the outer door?

A  The dining room was to my right.

FOREMAN:  Thank you.

Miss Kalin was dismissed.