Grand Jury

August 27, 1974

Testimony of Pamela Kalin

I, Mary M. Ritchie, being a notary Public in and for the State of North Carolina, was appointed to take the testimony of the following witness, Pamela Kalin, before the Grand Jury, Raleigh, North Carolina, commencing at 11:05 a.m. on August 27, 1974.  All Grand Jurors present.

Whereupon, PAMELA KALIN, Pamela Kalin, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Q  Will you state your full name, please?
A  Pamela Lorraine Kalin.
Q  How old are you, please?
A  Twenty.
Q  Thank you and where do you presently reside?
A  Tampa, Florida.
Q  Are you employed?
A  Yes.
Q  Doing what?
A  Bookkeeper at a service station.
Q  Is that an on-post station?
A  Right.
Q  At MacDill Air Force Base?
A  Right.
Q  You are the daughter of Mrs. Kalin who testified before the grand jury last week, I believe?
A  Right.
Q  How long have you been living down in Tampa?
A  Four months.
Q  Where did you reside before that?
A  Heidelberg, Germany.
Q  With your parents?
A  No.
Q  Were your parents stationed there at that time?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Did you finish high school, Pam?
A  Yes.
Q  Have you done any college-level work at all?
A  No.
Q  Now, in 1970, or more specifically February 16 and 17, 1970, you would have been what?  Sixteen?
A  Right.
Q  When is your birthday?
A  March.
Q  That would have been right before your seventeenth birthday?
A  (Nod affirmatively) Right.
Q  And you lived with your parents, I believe?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Will you tell us where you lived, please ma'am at that time?
A  I don't remember the number.  Do you want a number?
Q  If you do remember.  You do not remember?
A  542.
Q  Castle Drive?
A  Castle Drive.
Q  Fort Bragg?
A  Fort Bragg.
Q  You lived in the apartment with your parents and that apartment was adjacent to the apartment of the MacDonalds, is that right?
A  Right.
Q  Now, as I understand it, your apartment was a two-story apartment and at least two rooms in your upstairs were over portions of the MacDonald apartment, which was a onelevel apartment.  Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  Now was your bedroom upstairs?
A  Right.
Q  Where was your bedroom in relation to the MacDonald living room?
A  Over their living room.
Q  Over their living room.
A  Yes.
Q  So your -- now this is a drawing of the downstairs apartment and this is the living room.  Your bedroom would have been upstairs above this?
A  Right.
Q  In the front of the building?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  And there was another bedroom in your apartment that was above this portion?
A  Yes.
Q  And whose bedroom was that?
A  My brother's.
Q  Were you in this bedroom by yourself?
A  By myself.
Q  You were in school at the time?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  What grade were you in, if you recall?
A  Sophomore.
Q  In high school?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  How long had you folks lived there, if you can recall, at that time?
A  We moved there in late 1969.  I think it was 1969, in the summer.  I'm not sure.
Q  Now, the MacDonalds moved in late summer, also, or late summer or late fall?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Is that right?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Did you --

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Miss Kalin, you're going to have to say something when he asks you a question, otherwise, the reporter has nothing to take down.

Q  Okay?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  How well did you know the MacDonalds?
A  Just as a babysitter, not very personal.
Q  You did some babysitting for them?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you have occasions to visit in their home, other than when you were babysitting?
A  Yes.
Q  How often would you say?
A  Once or twice.
Q  The whole time?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  How often did you babysit for them?
A  At least once or twice a week.
Q  Would this be during the day or night?
A  At night.
Q  Do you recall why once or twice a week?  Was there something that happened every week that required you to babysit for them?
A  I believe Colette went to night classes and Jeff sometimes had basketball.  Sometimes they went out together.
Q  You would babysit for them in their apartment?
A  Right.
Q  Next door to your apartment?
A  Right.
Q  And this began when?  When they moved in or were they residents there for some time before you started babysitting for them?
A  I think about a month after they were there.
Q  So, you babysat for them several times?
A  Right.
Q  Did you become familiar with their apartment?
A  Yes.
Q  What type of relationship did you have with the children?  Would you describe it as a close relationship or just a typical babysitter/babysettee relationship?
A  It was fairly close.  Like on Halloween, I took the kids out Trick-or-Treating.  It wasn't real close, but it was close, since I babysat so much.
Q  When was the last time you recall that you saw the children and Colette alive?
A  I think that Thursday, the last time I babysat.  I don't remember.  
Q  You think it was Thursday?
A  Yes.
Q  Before the Monday, which was the 16th?
A  Right.
Q  And you think you babysat for them that night?
A  Right.
Q  Do you recall what the occasion was?
A  I think school, but I'm not sure.
Q  Can you recall seeing -- when the last time was that you saw Captain MacDonald, prior to his wife and children being killed?
A  I don't remember.
Q  You did not see them on Monday that you recall?
A  I don't remember.
Q  Now, do you recall what you did on that Monday after school?
A  After school?  Went home and babysat for another family till about six o'clock.
Q  What time did you return home that evening?
A  Between ten-thirty and eleven-thirty, I'm not sure.
Q  When you returned home was your family still awake or were they in bed at that time?
A  No, they were all asleep.
Q  Did you notice anything about the MacDonald's apartment at that time, when you returned home?
A  It was very quiet.
Q  Upon returning home, what, if anything did you do?
A  Went upstairs and went to sleep.
Q  Did you go to bed immediately upon arriving home?
A  I did my exercise and then I went to bed.
Q  Now, was there -- there was no noise in your apartment?
A  No.
Q  Could you hear any noise of any kind at that time prior to getting in bed -- hear noise in the MacDonald apartment?  TV?  Stereo?  Talk?  Anything?
A  No, it wasn't till after I had first got into bed, I think I heard conversation downstairs.
Q  You say, "You think."  Were you not positive about it?
A  I don't remember.
Q  What conversation -- what is there about the conversation that you think you recall?
A  Just the regular conversation.
Q  Could you detect any of the words being used?
A  No.
Q  You could tell it was coming from the living room downstairs.
A  Yes.
Q  Could you tell whether the voice -- how many voices were involved in -- you say conversation?  I presume at least two voices?
A  There were two, I believe.
Q  Can you recall anything about either of the voices, as far as male or female?
A  I am pretty sure one of them was male.  I don't remember the other.
Q  Did you recognize the male voice?
A  I think it was Jeff, because that's the only person that would have been down there.
Q  But as far as actually recognizing the voice, you didn't?  Other than just assuming that if it was a male voice, it was Jeff?
A  I believe I recognized Jeff's voice.
Q  You believe you recognized his voice?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Was there anything about the tone or volume that was unusual?
A  No.
Q  All right.  What time would you say that was?
A  Between -- I think about eleven o'clock.
Q  About eleven?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  You were in bed at the time just before going to sleep.
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  Did you hear any other noises prior to going to sleep?
A  No.
Q  Did you sleep through the night or were you awakened by something?
A  I awoke.  At first by an angry voice.
Q  Male or female?
A  Male.
Q  Did you recognize the voice?
A  I thought who else could be down there but Jeff.  That's all I thought.
Q  So you assumed that it was Jeff's voice?
A  Right.
Q  Can you say about what time this was?
A  No.  I can't.
Q  Do you have any idea how long -- were you in a deep sleep at that point?
A  Yes.
Q  What about the voice do you remember, other than it was loud -- what did they say?  Loud, angry voice?
A  It was angry and cruel I think.
Q  And it was loud I assume since it awakened you.
A  There were tones.  There were higher tones, angry tones than -- you could tell that it was an angry conversation because there were higher tones.
Q  You mean higher in volume.
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Or pitch?
A  In volume.
Q  Did you hear more than one voice at that time?
A  I don't remember.
Q  You say one was higher?  Was it higher in relation to what else?
A  Maybe another voice.  I don't remember.
Q  I believe when you and I discussed it prior you said that you felt like either before or after you heard that voice there was some lower tone like another voice.  Is that right?
A  I don't know.
Q  But you're not real sure?
A  I don't know if it was someone talking in lower tones or if it was someone else talking.
Q  For what period of time did you hear this voice?
A  About thirty seconds.  I didn't take much notice to it.
Q  Did the voice stop and you went back to sleep or did you go back to sleep while the voice was still --
A  While the voice was still --
Q  Expressing itself?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  What was your reaction at that time?  Were you afraid, or shocked, scared?
A  No.  Fighting.  That's normal between people.
Q  Had you heard this type voice before?
A  No.
Q  You had not?
A  (No answer)
Q  As I understand, sound carries rather readily between the living room and your upstairs bedroom.
A  Right.
Q  Were there ever times when it was quiet in your house that you could actually hear what the words were being expressed in the living room?
A  I could hear the children's names or Colette or Jeff calling to each other.  Maybe "stop it" or something.  But other than that I don't remember anything else.
Q  On this particular morning when you heard this loud, angry, male voice, could you detect any of the words that were being expressed?
A  No.
Q  Once going back to sleep when were you next awakened and by what?
A  There was a crying tone that I awoke to.
Q  A crying tone?
A  A sobbing.
Q  Sobbing?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Do you have any idea when -- what time or how long after the first awakening?
A  I don't think it was too long afterwards, but I don't know.
Q  Male or female?
A  I think it was male.
Q  You think?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Is there some question about that?
A  No.  I just don't remember.  It's been so long.
Q  What was the volume of it in relation to -- say the volume of the loud angry voice that you heard earlier?
A  It was just -- it was lower than that, of course, but it was loud enough that I could hear with everything quiet.
Q  Were you restless that night or were you sleeping rather deeply and being awakened by very loud noises?
A  It was sleeping and being awakened.
Q  For what period of time did you detect this crying or sobbing?
A  That kept me awake for a minute or so.  I went back to sleep.
Q  What was your reaction to that?  Did it ring a bell with you?  Did it --
A  No.
Q  Did you come fully awake on these two occasions or just sort of semi-awake?
A  The first one semi-awake that's why I don't think it was too long afterwards, because I might have -- I wasn't that deep into sleep when I heard the sobbing.
Q  I presume you went back to sleep after hearing the sobbing?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you hear anything at the time you heard the sobbing?
A  No.
Q  And after you went back to sleep when were you next awakened and by what?
A  By the MP's banging on the doors.
Q  Now during the night did you hear any other noises or voices, anything?
A  No.
Q  When was it that you first recall, after you were awakened by the MP's, when was it that you first recalled that you had awakened in the night on two occasions, once by a loud angry male, the other by sobbing?
A  After my father identified the bodies and came back to the living room which would have been around five or six o'clock I believe I mentioned it.
Q  To your parents?
A  I think I did or else I kept it inside.  I don't remember.
Q  But it was something you remembered shortly after you were awakened rather than some time later.
A  Right.
Q  How did you do in school grade-wise?
A  C or B.  Between C or B.
Q  Did you try in school or do you know what your IQ is for example?
A  No.  I don't know.
Q  All right now, would you describe to us, and of course, realizing at the time that you were sixteen years old, what your impression was of the relationship that existed between Colette and Jeffrey MacDonald.
A  At that time I thought they were pretty happy.
Q  Do you have any appraisal of that at this time?
A  I think differently because I thought they were happy because they didn't yell at each other or -- I come from a family where there was a lot of yelling and all.  So that's why I thought -- but now I look back and they never really smiled.  Colette never smiled and Jeff wasn't too friendly about after January.
Q  You say about after January?  Did you detect the change?  Do you now recall having two attitudes or having noticed two attitudes on their part during the time that you knew them?
A  Now I can remember and look back on it that Colette wasn't -- she hardly ever said "Hi" when I went over to babysit.
Q  This was after January?
A  Right.
Q  How were things before January, between then and about then, that you can recall?
A  Friendly.
Q  And after January it became less friendly?
A  Right.
Q  Between them or toward you?
A  Toward me.  And when I saw them together they weren't -- I don't know, I just sensed that they weren't happy.
Q  So you did detect a change in their attitude toward one another.
A  Right.
Q  Do you have any idea why this might be the case?
A  No.
Q  Did you ever hear them exchange harsh words?
A  No.
Q  Was there ever any indication to you of disagreement with one another or irritation toward one another or anything of this nature?  Other than by you say you didn't hear them express it?  Was there any other expression?
A  No.
Q  Now you said something to me, I believe, in our conversation that you could detect in looks at each other, you would, you know, catch them sort of cutting eyes at each other.
A  Right.
Q  Would you say this was a normal type thing as between a husband and wife?  I know you are not married but was it an unusual occurrence?  Was there something extra harsh or unusual about these looking at each other?
A  I've seen it with my parents.
Q  Did you get the impression that nothing was said because you were there?  And they would just look at each other harshly?
A  If it was personal, I think I would have felt funny there.
Q  But as far as you know there were no serious problems between them?
A  No.  I can look back and I know she got phone calls from some man, but that -- I didn't think about it at the time.
Q  Tell us about that.
A  I think it was twice.  He called up for Colette.  One might have been long distance.  I don't remember now.

FOREMAN:  Would you please ask her to speak up just a little bit.  People on the back are having a hard time.

Q  If you will, keep your voice up, please, Ma'am.  You say there were two occasions when the man called the house for her.
A  Right.
Q  Did he specifically ask for her or did he say Colette when you answered the phone --
A  (Interposing)  He said Colette.
Q  Thinking you might have been Colette?
A  Yes, he asked for Colette.
Q  He asked for Colette?  Was it the same voice each time?  Do you recall?  How long between the calls?
A  I don't remember.
Q  When was the last one in relation to when they were killed?
A  I think sometime before Christmas.
Q  Was there anything about the call that made you think there was something going on?
A  No, not at that time.
Q  How about now?
A  There could have been.  I don't know.
Q  But as far as you know it was just a man calling and asking for Colette?
A  Right.
Q  Is there anything else that gave you the impression that things were not right in their household --
A  (Interposing)  No.
Q  Except as you indicated the change in their attitudes?
A  Right.
Q  All right.  What about their attitudes toward the children?  How would you describe the relationship that existed between Colette and the two children?
A  She was, I suppose, motherly.  Are you talking about --
Q  Keep your voice up.  Now --
A  You're talking about discipline?
Q  Well that or -- you know -- did she have a close relationship with her children or distant relationship?
A  It was distant, I feel.
Q  How about discipline by Colette?
A  She wouldn't let them get away with as much as Jeff would.  She would never yell at them, but she would say their names sharply.  Kris was never afraid of her.  Kris was afraid of Jeff more than Colette.  Kim was -- I don't know.  I don't remember.
Q  You don't what?  What about Kim?
A  I think Kim was -- wasn't afraid of either of them.
Q  What was Jeff's attitude with regard to these children?  Would you say he was closer to them than Colette?
A  Yes.
Q  You say he let them get away with more?
A  Yes.
Q  Did he ever yell at them?
A  Not very loud.  He'd just tell them to stop.
Q  Would this be after he would say, and I don't mean to put words into your mouth, but would this be after he more or less let the situation get out of hand?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you ever see either Colette or Jeffrey strike the children?
A  No.
Q  Or each other?
A  No.
Q  Or raise a hand to strike the children or each other?
A  No.
Q  Did the children ever say anything to you as a babysitter that would reflect upon their attitude of their parents?
A  Kim was very proud of her father.
Q  Now Kristen, of course, wasn't vocalizing much at this point?
A  No.  
Q  Not like Kris?  Kim.  Excuse me.  All right now, did you ever, in all your visits to the apartment, did you ever see surgical gloves anywhere in the apartment?
A  No.
Q  More specifically, did you see any in the kitchen or the utility room of the house?
A  No.
Q  Did you have occasion to be in the kitchen and in the utility room on several occasions?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you ever see any type of weapons in the house?
A  No.
Q  Now directing your attention to this club that's already been admitted, marked as an exhibit, is there anything about this club that rings a bell with you or that is familiar?  This piece of wood.
A  Just the splattered paint, but not the piece of wood.
Q  The paint somehow rings a bell with you?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  The color or the pattern of the paint?  Or what?
A  The pattern.
Q  But the piece of wood itself does not?
A  No.
Q  Now referring you to the knife and -- that is attached -- the knife that is in a plastic bag that is attached to the ice pick that is in a plastic bag.  The knife which has on it the printing "Stainless -- Geneva Forge, USA."  Do you recognize that knife?
A  No.
Q  Is there anything about it that is familiar to you?
A  I believe that my family had a color -- one the same color in a smaller one like that, but not the end shape and not the bent blade, but the color and the size of it.
Q  Do you have any recollection as to a knife like this in the MacDonald residence?
A  No.
Q  Did you ever do any dishes, wash dishes in the MacDonald residence?
A  Yes.
Q  On how many occasions if you can recall?
A  Three or four.
Q  This would be -- what?  Dishes left over from supper?
A  Right.
Q  Now, how about the ice pick?  Do you recognize it?
A  No.
Q  Did the MacDonalds have an ice pick in their residence?
A  I think so.
Q  You think so?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Do you have any recollection as to where it was kept?
A  No.
Q  Do you have any recollection as to whether or not there was drawer in the kitchen that was specifically for knives and kitchen utensils as opposed to silverware?  Like in our house, for example, we've got one drawer where we keep our silverware like stainless steel eating utensils and then in another drawer we keep knives, like butcher knives or paring knives, and egg beater and this type of stuff.  What about in the MacDonald residence?  Do you have a recollection to that?
A  No.
Q  Now referring you to the other knife which has imprinted on it and the handle, the wooden handle, "Old Hickory".  Can you recognize that knife?
A  I think.
Q  You think.
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  What is there about this knife that you recognize?
A  The lettering.
Q  The "Old Hickory"?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  On the handle?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Is there anything else about this as far as the coloring, the size, the shape?
A  The color.
Q  How about just the shape and design of it?  Does that in any way ring a bell with you?
A  No.
Q  All right.  From where do you recognize it?
A  I'm not sure if it was a -- I babysat a lot there and I don't know if I saw it at a babysitting house or friend's house or -- I don't remember.
Q  Can you in any way connect it with the MacDonald residence?
A  I thought they had one with handles on their knives, but I don't remember.
Q  When you and I were talking yesterday, I believe, at least you gave me the impression that you did recognize it and that you felt like you recognized it from the MacDonald household.  Is that not your recollection or is it?
A  I'm not sure.
Q  You're not sure?
A  (Nod affirmatively)
Q  Would it have been from your house?  Did you have a knife like this?
A  No.
Q  How many places did you babysit?
A  About ten different places.
Q  And you can't be more specific about where you would recognize them from?
A  No.
Q  Let me ask you this in regard to the paint on this piece of wood.  Can you tie it in to any particular place that you can recall seeing it?  It rings a bell?
A  No.
Q  Like the MacDonald residence or out back, or at your house, or some other house?
A  No, I can't remember.
Q  Now, on the night that you would babysit for the children you would have to get a bottle for Kristen.  Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  When you put her to be?
A  Right.
Q  And what would you give her in the bottle?
A  Chocolate milk.
Q  And where would you put them to bed, Kristen and Kimberly, when you babysat for them?
A  Usually Kim in her bedroom and Kris in her bedroom unless they wanted it otherwise.
Q  What if they wanted it otherwise?
A  I'd let them sleep wherever they wanted to.
Q  And where would it be other than their bedroom?
A  Sometimes Kim would ask Kris to come into her bedroom.  Sometimes Kim would want to go into her parent's bed.  That's all I remember.
Q  Did Kristen ever want to go into her parent's bed?
A  I don't remember.  I don't remember.
Q  But Kim did?
A  Right.
Q  What type of sleepers were they?  Kristen, for example, was she a heavy sleeper or was she a restless sleeper, if you can recall?
A  She usually had a second bottle at night and she would wake up and cry for her second bottle.
Q  Kristen?
A  Kris would.
Q  How about Kimberly?
A  Kim would wake up and cry.  I'd have to go in and talk to her.
Q  Did that happen often?
A  Right.
Q  When she woke up and cried, would she say anything or would she just cry?
A  She would cry, I think Colette's name.  But I'm not sure.  She would cry a name out.
Q  She would cry for Colette or for mother, mommie?
A  Mommie.
Q  Can you recall her ever awaking crying for daddy?
A  No.
Q  Do you recall the circumstances under which she would awaken?  Would it be a dream type situation?  Or noises outside or what?
A  No.  She would just wake up I guess from a dream.  I don't remember.  I would just go in there and talk to her.  She would hardly say anything when I went in there and told her her mother and father would be home.  She just listened to me.
Q  Did Kimberly ever wet the bed that you know of?
A  I think once.
Q  How about Kristen?
A  She would wet the bed pretty often.
Q  Now what was you relationship with Colette?  Would you say you had a distant relationship with her?
A  Right.
Q  Did you ever just chitchat with her?  Have personal talks like between a young lady and woman?
A  Just about clothes, maybe.  But not often.
Q  What was your relationship with Jeffrey MacDonald?
A  More friendly.
Q  Now did he ever make any comment to you that would be considered to be an offhand comment or that you considered to be an offhand comment?
A  At that time, being sixteen, he made one comment about if he had known girls like me back when he was sixteen he's like to still be in school.
Q  Did you take any offense at that?
A  Yes.
Q  You did?  Do you recall where this was and under what circumstances this remark was made?
A  It was outside on the front lawn.
Q  Can you recall any other thing about that particular conversation?
A  No.
Q  Was there ever any similar type remark made at any other time?
A  No.
Q  Did you say anything in response to that remark?
A  No.
Q  Now referring you to this photograph -- (KALIN - EXHIBIT 1 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)  Referring you to this black and white photograph of the living room area of the MacDonald residence I'd like to direct your attention to the pillows on the sofa.  One being a leopard skin type design and the other being a more plain design.  Do you recall these pillows?
A  Yes.
Q  Were they used on the sofa or is this unusual for them to be found on the sofa?  
A  No.  They were used on the sofa.
Q  Now particularly with regard to the upper pillow, the top pillow, the leopard skin designed one, can you remember the texture or the feeling of the pillow?  Would it be your impression that it was a foam rubber pillow or a feather or other type of filling pillow?
A  Now that I look at it, it looks -- I can remember it being more in between foam and like we talk about when you put your elbow in it would dent it.  I think it would do both.  It wasn't real soft either.  It would make an indention, but it wasn't that soft.
Q  So if you leaned on it with your elbow or if you put any pressure on it with an object of some kind it would leave an indentation or an impression?
A  Right.
Q  Do you have any other recollection about the pillows at all?
A  No.
Q  Would it be an impression that would remain for some time, until there was some other type of pressure put on it?
A  Right.
Q  All right.  Now, at this time you had a dog.  Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  Sort of a, I recall your mother describing it to me to be a Heinz 57 type variety type dog?
A  Right.
Q  Did the -- the dog's name was Sam.
A  Right.
Q  Did the dog stay in at night or was it a house dog as opposed to an outside dog?
A  It was a house dog.
Q  Was it a puppy?
A  Yes.
Q  And where did Sam stay at night?  Where did he sleep normally?
A  Either my bedroom or my brother's bedroom.
Q  Okay.  Do you recall where Sam was on the night in question, the 16 and 17 of February?
A  No.
Q  When he was in your bedroom would he be in bed with you or down on the floor beside your bed or what?
A  He'd be on the bed with me.
Q  Can you be sure that he was not or was or you just don't have no recollection of his being on the bed with you that night?
A  I don't remember.
Q  Did he bark that night?
A  I don't remember.
Q  How about when the MP's came?  Do you recall Sam at that time?
A  Vaguely.  I don't remember if he barked or not.
Q  If he had barked while you were asleep would you have been awakened by that?
A  I think so.  I don't remember him barking and me waking up to it.
Q  Now the MacDonald had a cat.  Right?
A  Right.
Q  Was this an outside-type cat or an inside-type cat?
A  It would stay in and out.
Q  How about at night when you were babysitting?  Would the cat be in or out?
A  Usually outside.
Q  Can you last recall when you last saw the cat, either before or after this incident?
A  I remember seeing it more before.  I don't remember much afterwards.

MR STROUD:  What about, Mr. Foreman, the prospect at this time of taking a lunch recess and having her coming back after lunch?  In that way the members of Jury, if they have any questions, can think about it during their lunch break.  She'll be available for questions afterwards and I might ask her a few more questions.

FOREMAN:  We'll come back at 1:15.

The afternoon session of the grand jury reconvened at 1:15 p.m.  The following proceedings were held to wit:

Pamela Kalin resumes the stand.


Q  Okay.  I have just a couple of other questions, Miss Kalin.  Let me show you what has been marked for identification as Ivory Exhibit #39 which is a photograph of the bathroom of the MacDonald residence, the main bathroom and specifically referring to the folded up stepladder there.  Do you any recollection of that stepladder?
A  Yes.
Q  What recollection do you have of it?
A  It was in the kitchen.
Q  That it was kept in the kitchen?
A  Yes.
Q  Folded up or folded out so that you could use it?
A  Folded out.
Q  Did you ever see it in the bathroom?
A  No.
Q  Okay.  What about the stool there?  The orange stool?  Do you have any recollection of it?
A  Yes.
Q  What recollection do you have of it?
A  In the bathroom.
Q  Where it is there?
A  Yes.
Q  All right.  Now, I was asked to ask you if since 1970, since February -- Well, let's back up just a second.  After Colette and the two children were killed Jeffrey MacDonald never again lived in that apartment.  Did you have any contact with him during the time before you and your family were transferred to Heidelberg after the killings?
A  No.
Q  To see him or to talk with him?
A  No.  Just at that little trial.
Q  At the hearing?
A  Yes.
Q  Have you had any contact with him since that time or has he made any effort to contact you or anything of that nature?
A  No.

MR. STROUD:  Okay.  I have no further questions.  Do any of you ladies and gentlemen have any questions that you would like to ask Miss Kalin?

JUROR:  I do.  Did you ever help Colette with any of her house work other than the dishes when you were keeping the children?

A  In her presence?

JUROR:  I was thinking when she wasn't there.  Maybe when she and Jeff were out together or when you were babysitting.  Did you do any of her house work for her?

A  I cleaned -- I put the toys away and made the beds.  If they wet the beds, I would change the beds.

JUROR:  Did you ever put Kimberly to bed in the master bedroom and she wet it and maybe -- Did you ever change Colette and Jeff's bed?

A  Yes.

JUROR:  You did?

A  (Nod affirmatively)

MR. STROUD:  Any of you other folks have any question?  Okay.

FOREMAN:  If not, you're excused, Miss Kalin.  Thank you very much.

Miss Kalin was dismissed.