Grand Jury

August 20, 1974

Testimony of William Ivory (CID)

I, Mary M. Ritchie, being a Notary Public in and for the State of North Carolina, was appointed to take the testimony of the following witness, William Ivory, before the Grand Jury, Raleigh, North Carolina, commencing at 9:30 a.m. on August 20, 1974.  All Grand Jurors present.


William Ivory, having being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Q  Will you state your full name, please, sir?
A  William Ivory.
Q  Where do you live Mr. Ivory?
A  I'm presently residing in Heidelberg, Germany.
Q  What's your employment?
A  I'm with the Army CID Command with the department of the Army.
Q  You are here in response to a subpoena; you are here on TDY military orders.  Is that correct?
A  That's right.
Q  Where were you stationed on the night of February 16, February 17, 1970, and what were your duties on that occasion?
A  Sir, at that time I was stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.  And on that evening of 16-17, February, I was the duty officer for the Fort Bragg CID.
Q  All right.  Up until about three o'clock in the morning, was that an eventful night?
A  No, sir.  It was a very quiet night.  In fact, very few calls had come in that evening.
Q  Do you recall what sort of night it was?
A  Yes, sir.  It had been raining just about the entire night, the entire evening.  From time to time it was a rather heavy downpour.  About that time in the morning, about three o'clock or so, it was raining but quite light.
Q  Sort of a light drizzle?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  All right.  Sometime after three o'clock, did you get a notice of something that attracted your attention?
A  Yes, sir.  At 3:50 a.m. -- Well, if I can backtrack just a little bit.  I had retired for the evening in the duty agent's room where we had a bed.  After I had been in a semi-sleeping state I imagine.  And at 3:50 I overheard a call coming over the radio which was at a different pitch than the normal monotone of the usual police radio calls.  And it alerted me and woke me up.
     And I heard the military policemen discussing that there had been a stabbing at a residence in the on post quarters at 544 Castle Drive.  And there seemed to be a little bit of excitement going on there.
     So I went to the radio in my office and inquired of the MP patrol if there had been any fatalities involved.  I got an affirmative reply.
     From that point on, I knew I would have to respond to it.
Q  All right.  Now, what did you do?  First, did you notify anybody else?
A  Yes, sir.  That evening I also had as an assistant a military police investigator.  I notified him.  He was in the next building.  I called our duty photographer who was at his post quarters.  I picked up a few items of crime processing equipment; such as a camera box, fingerprint kit, and some evidence containers.
     And, then with Mr. Rossi, who was the military police investigator, we proceeded in the duty car to the housing area and to 544 Castle Drive.
Q  What's Rossi's full name?
A  His first name is Hagen.  H-a-g-a-n.  And Rossi " R-o-s-s-i.  His middle name, I'm sorry I don't know it.
Q  Who was the photographer you notified?
A  Staff Sergeant Alexander.  I believe his first name is David, but I'm not sure.
Q  Now, you proceeded to the crime scene with Rossi?  Is that it?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you go in a staff car?
A  Yes.
Q  Was there anything on route to the crime scene that attracted your attention in any way? In other words, did you see any persons standing around on street corners?
A  No, sir.  The streets were deserted.
Q  Now, when you arrived at 544 Castle Drive, what did you observe outside of the house?
A  As I pulled up into the parking lot in front of the house, I observed two Army ambulances, some military police vehicles and on the doorstep of the house I observed about three MP's and also some medical personnel in their white hospital jackets.
Q  Did you approach the front door of the house?
A  Yes, sir.  I did.
Q  Was the front door open or closed?
A  The front door, at that time, was open.
Q  Did you enter the house?
A  Yes, sir.  I did.
Q  At the time, were you in the living room of the house?
A  I entered the living room of the house right from the front door on the front porch.  There was no entrance way or hallway.  It led directly into the living room.
Q  Who did you observe in the living room of the house?
A  I observed Lt. Paulk -- P-a-u-l-k.  And he was the military police duty officer.
     I also observed one other MP standing just inside the door by the desk which is just inside the front door.
     And I went, initially, right to Lt. Paulk who was the senior man at the scene and asked to be advised of the situation.
Q  All right.  Give us, as best you recall, the substance of what you said to him and what he said to you.
A  Yes, sir.
     As best I can recollect, I approached him and asked him what was going on, what was the situation.
     I must add at this point, as I first started to talk to him, I observed two medics in hospital whites and one military policeman carrying a litter from the hallway down two stairs and on this litter was a person who I later found out was Captain Jeffrey MacDonald.
Q  Now, was he removed from the house in a matter of seconds from the time that you entered there?
A  Yes, sir.  As I walked in and walked to Paulk, they were carrying him out.  And I observed him on the litter.  He was covered with sheet up to his neck.  His eyes were closed.  I assumed that he was in an unconscious state because at this time Lt. Paulk was telling me that the family had been attacked and there had been some people killed.  And I assumed that he was --
Q  The only reason you made that assumption was because his eyes were closed.
A  He had his eyes closed.  And they took him right out of the house and into the ambulance.
Q  When they got to the end of the hall and the staircase, did they raise the litter off the --
A  Yes, sir.  At the end of the hallway, going down into the living room, there is just one step down, but there was some items of clothing like a girl's nightshirt and a robe I believe.
Q  Something red?
A  Yes, sir.
     And the military policeman who was on the side of the litter had to gingerly step around rather than step on these items.
Q  Did they lift the litter up?  Raise it?  Elevate it so that it --
A  Yes, sir.  They had to elevate it to get it down the steps.
Q  So that these articles were not disturbed.
A  No, sir.
Q  Now, sir, I take it there was one MP right at the door, there was one MP standing by the desk and Lt. Paulk was standing in the room.  And you and he, I suppose, had to move over to one side and let the litter by.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What side did you go to?  Was that towards the dining room?
A  Yes, sir, it was towards the dining room, towards the stereo set that was on the far side of the living room wall.
Q  Now, when you entered the house, what illumination did you observe?
A  The living room light was on.  The kitchen light was on.  The hallway light was on, leading from the living room back to the master bedroom.  And, in going down the hall, I observed also the bathroom light; halfway down the hallway was on.  And of course the master bedroom light was on.
Q  Now, how soon after you arrived there did you proceed down the hallway?
A  It was in within a matter of seconds after the litter had been removed and Lt. Paulk had advised me that -- I could see down the hallway and I could see the body of a woman laying in the master bedroom.
     He told me that the gentleman who had just been wheeled out on the litter had told him that he and his family had been attacked by a group of hippies.  And he then proceeded to take me through the house to the master bedroom where he showed me, or, I got a closer look at the body of Colette MacDonald.
     At that time I also observed at the rear door which -- There is a utility room which leads from the master bedroom, and from there was a door directly out into the backyard.  And standing in the doorway, as a perimeter of security, there was a military policeman.
     In any event, I observed the body of Colette MacDonald obviously dead.
     He then told me, I'm going to show you the other bodies.  And at this time I wasn't quite prepared for this because I expected to find the one body.  And he then takes me to the side bedroom going back down the hallway.
Q  Was this the south side or the north side of the house?
A  This would be on the --
Q  Front side or the rear side?
A  Yes, sir.  The front side.
Q  Was the light -- When you arrived at the door of that room, was the light on or off?
A  The room was in darkness.
Q  And Paulk was escorting you?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did he have a flashlight?
A  Yes, sir, he did.  He shined the flashlight into the room and I could see a body laying in the bed there.  I stepped inside of the room and with a trusty G.I. pen I flipped the light switch which was immediately inside the door of the bedroom, flipped the light on, walked closer and observed the body of a child in the bed.  Again, looking at her, obviously dead.
     He escorted me then to the room across the hall.  Again, with his flashlight, he illuminated it.  I saw another body, went in and in the same manner put the overhead light on in that bedroom and then observed the body, again, of another smaller child.  Again, obviously dead.
Q  All right.  Did you question Paulk as to what actions had been taken by any person prior to your arrival?
A  Yes, sir.  As we were walking along the hallway and into the rooms, he was relating to me what he had done and what the military policemen had done when they arrived.  And this was to say that they arrived and tried the front door of the house and it was locked.
     And Lt. Paulk dispatched a patrol around to the rear door, to the rear of the quarters to see if there was any entrance way or access way into the back.  The patrol went around, found the back door open and observed the body of Colette MacDonald and Captain MacDonald laying next to her.  And they came around and said the back door is open.  And they said they needed an ambulance back there, that somebody was hurt.
     Then he went around and entered the back door of the house and again saw Captain MacDonald and his wife.  And a military policeman who was with him, using a flashlight he says, went down the hallway into the living room and opened the front door.
     And, at that time, they put on the light in the living room, the light switch being right next to the living room door.
     Lt. Paulk then told me that he put some people on the perimeter security around the house while they were waiting for the ambulances.
Q  That is, various MP personnel, as they arrived, were assigned by Lt. Paulk to guard the exterior of the house and control access to the house.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, do you know a man by the name of Mica?
A  Yes, sir.  I have since come to know that name.
Q  Was he in the house when you arrived?
A  Yes, sir, he was.  He was a military policeman.
Q  Where was he?
A  As I recall he was the one standing by the desk in the living room.
Q  Do you know a man by the name of Terese?
A  Terese?  No, sir.  There was an MP Sergeant with a name similar to that, a Sergeant Trevor.
Q  Trevor.  I was -- My recollection is imperfect.  Trevor.
A  He was a military policeman that was assisting the medical personnel as they took the litter down and through the living room and out.
Q  In other words, he was escorting them and instructing them, now be careful; don't move this and don't touch that or -- ?
A  No, sir.  I cannot honestly recall that.  I can only recall specifically that I saw him being very cautious in stepping around those clothes that were laying in the hallway.
Q  Now, what was the time that you arrived at the house, as you can best recall?
A  I noted at the time I arrived it was four a.m.
Q  How long did Paulk stay in the house?
A  He stayed for quite a while.  I lost track of him after I got into the actual processing of the crime scene.
Q  As of the time that you arrived there, were you in charge of the crime scene?
A  Yes, sir.  As the duty investigator, I would assume the responsibility of any film scenes.
Q  Did you give any instructions to Paulk?
A  Yes, sir.  To keep unnecessary personnel out of the house and to keep the MP's posted around the house and to keep the curious, the curiosity seekers from approaching the house.
As we arrived, we caused quite a stir in the neighborhood, which is a quiet neighborhood. People are coming to the house to see what happened.
Q  Now, on this particular night, which is the night of February 16, 17, how many Third Army MP's patrols were active?
A  As a matter of routine, the midnight shift was four, two-men patrols and a duty officer with a driver.
Q  Well, that makes a total of how many MP's were available for response to an emergency situation?
A  There would have been a total of eight.
Q  That includes Lt. Paulk?
A  That is not including Lt. Paulk.
Q  Not including Lt. Paulk?
A  Not including Lt. Paulk.
Q  So, there were eight let's say GI types and Lt. Paulk.
A  Lt. Paulk and his driver.
Q  His driver?
A  (Nods affirmatively.)
Q  And were the MP's that appeared at the scene in response to this emergency called the Third Army MP's?
A  Yes, sir.  On Fort Bragg the military police jurisdiction is broken down into Third Army or Main Post military police.  And again with the 82nd Airborne Division they have their own area of responsibility on the opposite side of the reservation.  The 82nd Airborne military police, which they, usually on a midnight shift they would have one patrol.  They patrol only that area in which the 82nd Airborne Division has its barracks and billets.  The rest of the post is patrolled by the Third Army or the Main Post military police.
Q  The 82nd division MP's, the area that they cover does not include Corregidor Courts I take it?
A  No.
Q  And it does not include the area where 544 Castle Drive is?
A  No, sir.  It doesn't.
Q  That's under the jurisdiction of the Third Army MP's or the Main Post MP's and they are the ones that showed up on this particular evening?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You say you notified David Alexander, the duty photographer.  Was he the next person that arrived on the scene?
A  It would have been either he or Special Agent Connolly.
Q  Now, let me ask you this.  After you arrived at the scene and observed the situation, did you make a call to get other agents to appear at the scene?
A  Yes, sir, I did.  When I saw the magnitude of the crime scene, I immediately knew that it was too much for one investigator or one investigative team to process.  I went to the next door apartment, the apartment of Mr. and Mrs. Kalin, asked to use their telephone and there called the chief of the Fort Bragg CID, Mr. Grebner, advised him of the situation.  And I told him I was going to call other investigators to assist at the scene
     I then called half a dozen or so investigators to the scene and asked those that I called to call others.
Q  All right.  Now, specifically, whom did you call?  Did you call Bob Shaw?
A  Yes, sir.  I called Mr. Grebner, Mr. Connolly, Mr. Shaw, Mr. Black.  That's all that I can recall right now.  Those are the ones I immediately called.  I called Mr. Connolly first because -- after calling Mr. Grebner, of course.  I called him because I knew he, being the liaison agent with the local civilian police, he had a duty car at his residence and could respond with a radio car that much faster than anyone else could.
     This would be the reason that he was the first agent that arrived to assist me.
Q  Who was this now?
A  This was Agent Connolly.  He arrived about four twenty.
Q  All right.  Now, you arrived there at three fifty and how soon after you arrived there would you say you went to Kalin's place?
A  Sir, I arrived at four a.m.
Q  You arrived about four a.m.
A  Yes, sir.  And it was about 4:05 when I went next door and made the call.
Q  Now, when you finished making these calls, did you ask Kalin to come in the house with you or was that a few minutes later?
A  This was a few minutes later.  I went back over to the house, again to assure myself that the crime scene was as secure as we could get it and then went back.  I know I made one additional phone call.  I believe it was to the Fort Bragg duty officer.  And, at that time, I asked Mr. Kalin I said, it's a pretty rough scene next door, but I would appreciate it if you were to accompany me there and attempt to identify the bodies there in the house, because at that time I really did not know who the dead people were.
Q  Did he agree to do that?
A  Yes, sir.  He agreed to accompany me.  He was dressed in pajamas at the time, with a robe on.  He did accompany me back into the house and it was about this time that Agent Connolly arrived.
     And I escorted Mr. Kalin down the hallway.  He did not enter the rooms.  He looked in --
Q  All right.  Now, when you brought him in the house, did you give him any specific instructions?
A  Yes, sir.  The instructions were not to touch anything and that what I wanted him to do was to look at the bodies and if he could to identify them to me.  He did this by peering into the bedroom, which was illuminated, of Kristen MacDonald and said, yes, that's Krissy.  I believe that's the name he used.  He then went to the room across the hall, looked in and he said, yes, that's Kimmy, and went back to the master bedroom and said, yes, that's Mrs. MacDonald.  And then he was escorted immediately out of the scene.
Q  That was about 4:20 a.m.?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, about this time you think simultaneously Connolly arrived.  Now, who else arrived thereafter?
A  Alexander.
Q  How about Major Parson?
A  Major Parson is the Deputy Provost Marshal, and he was assigned by the Colonel who had been notified, of course, that this had happened.  And he was sent down there as a personal representative of the Provost Marshal who is in effect the chief of police for the military reservation.
Q  Did you give him any instructions?
A  Yes, sir.  It was hardly necessary but I did take him through the house and showed him the bodies and asked him to be careful, don't move anything and mess with anything.
     He's an old hand; he's been in the military police quite a while and he was quite aware of this.  And he in fact did not touch anything or move anything.
Q  All right.  Did he take up a post anywhere?
A  Yes, sir.  His post was at the front door, just between the front door and the desk.  And he was screening people who were coming in or trying to come in the house.  And that was to be his function, to act as our heavyweight at the door to keep the curious out.
Q  All right.  Alexander showed up, as best you can recall, about what time?
A  It would have been about the same time or shortly after Connolly arrived.  And immediately we started with him in the photographing the crime scene.
Q  All right.  Now, did you thereafter call another photographer in?
A  Yes, sir.  Sergeant Alexander, after he took a number of pictures, was -- while he was a competent photographer, he was not use to this type of crime scene that we were processing there and he was visibly shaken by it.  And I was afraid he was going to get violently ill in the crime scene.  That, coupled with the fact that he was running out of film -- or flash bulbs, excuse me -- I asked him to leave.  And right away I called again the duty officer of Fort Bragg to attempt to get additional photographic support and was put in touch with Mr. Squires who is the chief of the photo lab at Fort Bragg.  And he said that he would come immediately to the scene.  And he was there within ten or so minutes.  He lives close by.
     And he entered the quarters.  And again he was advised not to move anything but to photograph the crime scene.
Q  Approximately when did he arrive?
A  He would have arrived about four thirty or shortly thereafter.
Q  How about 4:40?  Would it be within that time frame?  4:30?  4:40?
A  Yes, it would have been within that time frame.  Yes, sir.
Q  I take it that Shaw arrived about -- shortly thereafter.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.  He arrived about quarter of five.  At this time we had already been photographing part of the crime scene.
Q  Did anyone send out or call for a doctor to appear at the crime scene?
A  Yes, sir.  The hospital was notified that we wanted a medical doctor.  Of course, there had been medical personnel there and had observed the bodies.  But we wanted a doctor there to make the formal pronouncement of death as is required by our regulations.  And at about zero four fifty-eight -- not about, but it was zero four fifty-eight I recall as I made a note of his arrival -- that I met him at the front door.  I cautioned him as to the seriousness of the crime scene and that he should not touch anything, that he should not move the bodies unless it was absolutely necessary in order to pronounce them dead.
Q  He agreed that this was the best way to do it.  And I escorted him through the crime scene.  And he went to the room of the smaller child, Kristen MacDonald.  And, at this time Connolly and Shaw were there with me.
Q  All right.  Now did you cause a photograph to be made of Kristen's body before you permitted him to enter the room?
A  Yes, sir.  We were in the process of photographing the crime scene when I was notified that Dr. Neal had arrived.  And we photographed -- we finished making the initial photographs of the crime scene and then I went to get him and escorted him through.  So, the photographs had been exposed of the crime scene, of the bodies prior to his entering the room.
Q  Now, when you took him into the room, what specific instructions did you give him as to how he should move and what she should do, etc.?
A  There were blood stains on the floor.  There was a bloody footprint just -- a series of footprints just at the door to Kristen's room.  He was cautioned not to step on the blood, not to step in the large pools of blood that were just at the side of Kristen's bed and not to touch anything and not to move the bodies unless it was absolutely necessary in order to pronounce them dead.
Q  What did he do?
A  He went to Kristen's body, felt the pulse, looked at her and he picked her up -- not picked her up, but she was laying on her side, on her left side.  And, standing up near her shoulder region, he reached over and pulled her over to look at the back of the body.
Q  In other words, he moved it slightly?
A  Yes, sir.  And, he then replaced the body in a somewhat similar position, but it was different, and moved the covers a bit and then stepped back and said, she's dead.  And I cautioned him again.  I did more than caution him.  He excited me when he did this.  I said; don't touch the bodies again unless you think they are alive.  He said, well, I want to know what killed her.  And I said at this point in time, I don't care what killed her.  All I want to know is, is she dead.  The autopsy will tell me the cause of death.  I said don't move and don't touch the other bodies unless there are signs of life and then, of course, immediately we'll get them out.
     He then went to --
Q  Let me ask you one more question.  Did you observe him use a stethoscope?
A  No, sir.  He just used his hands on the pulse areas.
Q  All right.  Where did you take him next?
A  He then went to the bedroom of Kimberly, I believe.  And he went over, around -- well.  All right, this is Kimberly's bedroom.  We left Kristen's bedroom and he walked around to this side of the bed which would have been closer to her body as she was facing this way, laying on her left side.  And he went to the side of the bed, looked over and put his hands on her cheeks.  And I could see him looking, she had these gaping stab wounds in her throat, and I saw him looking into those wounds.  And he also -- he reached over and kind of moved the covers a little bit and reached over to touch her pulse in her left hand which was outstretched.  And again he said, she is also dead.  
Q  You didn't observe him use a stethoscope?
A  No, sir.  He used only his hands.
Q  Or, at any time while he was in the house?
A  No, sir.  I didn't observe it.  I would say he did not have a stethoscope.
Q  Okay.  Then what happened?
A  We then went to the room of -- the master bedroom.  The sequence may be out, but the facts --
Q  You mean you may have gone to the master bedroom second and Kimberly third?
A  Yes, sir.  There's a slight doubt in the sequence but not in the actual events that occurred.
Q  He then went to the head of Colette MacDonald.  She was laying on her back her left arm outstretched " not outstretched but in a position similar to that.  He knelt down by her shoulder region.  He touched her pulse in that outstretched arm.  One of her eyes were open. He just reached over and lifted the eyelid on the other eye and closed it again.  And he went around to stand over the body, but over the head region of the body, and knelt down " not knelt but scooted down " and reached down under her jaws, here, again, I assumed, feeling for a pulse.  And he said she was dead.  And then he was immediately escorted out of the house.  But he did move the body of Kristen MacDonald; the body of Kimberly and Colette, he did not move.  He did not move anything in the room.
     Again, he was cautioned after each time not to touch anything that may be of evidentiary value.
Q  Do you have with you at this time a number of photographs, the first photographs that were made in the house?
A  Yes, sir.  I do.
Q  Do they reflect the appearance of the house when you first entered the house and when you first looked into each of the respective rooms of the house?
A  Yes, sir.  They do.
Q  Can you segregate those photographs so that we can have them identified by you?
A  They are in these binders.  I did take --
Q  You are at liberty to remove them from the binders.
A  Would you like me to describe them as I look at them?
Q  First, let's get them all segregated and put them in whatever logical order you think best. And then we'll go into a description.
A  Actually, these would be the photographs of the living room area.
Q  All right.  Let's put those in one file.
A  I'll try to keep them in some kind of order here.  When we process a scene, when we photograph a crime scene, it's procedure to photograph it in a clockwise, 360 degree turn.  I'm trying to keep them in some semblance of that order.
     This is the master bedroom.
     This is the utility room.
     This is the north bedroom or the bedroom of Kristen MacDonald.
     This is the bedroom of Kimberly MacDonald or the south bedroom, whatever the direction is.
     And here is a photograph of the bathroom.  The hallway bathroom or the master bathroom.
Q  All right.  Now, I made the mistake, since some of these have previously been marked as a MacDonald Exhibit, of rearranging these.  Now, will you put these in your own arrangement again?  And, even though they've already been marked as a MacDonald Exhibit, I'll have them also marked as an Ivory Exhibit.
     All right.  I'll ask our reporter to mark these in sequence as Ivory Exhibits.  Some of them are already marked as a MacDonald Exhibit, but you can make an appropriate mark on the margin there.

(Ivory Exhibits No. 1 " No. 39 Marked for Identification.)

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Mrs. Reporter, the scenes in the living room-dining room area are marked as Ivory Exhibits Nos. what through what?

REPORTER:  One through eight.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Now, I will ask you to mark, beginning with No. 9, the photographs that show the view down the hall and the master bedroom.
A  I had observed that there were some pictures there that I did not have.  And I subsequently went and got these here.  So, there's going to be a mixup in the exhibit numbers I'm afraid.
Q  I am interested first in the original pictures before anything is disturbed on the scene.
Now, do you have some more here?
A  Yes, sir.
     In the bedroom of Kimberly, the older girl, I have these photos, again making the panorama of the 360.  These I observed when I went through those photographs were missing from sequences.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  When we get to that part, we'll mark them separately.

A  While they don't show anything different from in these other photographs, they just show more of the room.
Q  More of the same thing?
A  And a photo of the exterior of the house and some other photos of the kitchen because there is one photo there from the kitchen which shows a series of bloodstains and you really can't take them in the right perspective because it doesn't show them in relation to anything; wherein, this photo does show these blood spots in relation to the kitchen cabinet.
     Other photos that were taken outside, of the weapons, where they were found.
Q  All right.  Well, we'll try to integrate those as best we can.
     Is this the first series of photos before any changes were made of the living room area?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  All right.  Ivory Exhibit No. 1 shows what?
A  This is a view from the front door straight into the living room and that portion of the living room which has a desk, an aquarium and television set.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Do you want me to pass these around to you?

JUROR:  I would like to see them.  Yes.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Do you want me to put them on a desk and let's take a break and look at them or what?

JUROR:  Just the desk and look.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Mr. Foreman, do you want to take a look at that?


FOREMAN:  I have seen it.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Why don't we pass them here and we can circulate them around.  I'm handing them out as one, two, etc.  That's Ivory Exhibit No. 1.

Q  What does this show?
A  This is a similar photograph as that of No. 1.  And it goes farther into the corner of the living room, also a view from the front door, and shows a little closer the corner closet and the television set.
Q  And three " what does that show?
A  This is a continuation of the pan around the room, and shows the north wall of the living room, and the stereo set, and a portion of the dining room area.
Q  All right.  And four " what does it show?
A  This is looking from south to north from the living room area directly into the dining room area.  Dining room furniture can be observed and also the doorway leading into the kitchen.
Q  All right.  Now, No. 5 shows what?
A  This is a photograph from the center of the living room looking in an eastward direction along the hallway.  The end of the hallway shows the master bedroom and continuing around to the right is the couch and coffee table which were in the living room.
Q  Now, from one through four, had anything -- was everything in precisely the position it was when you first entered the house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  On five I see at the end of the hall, draped over the steps, a red garment of some description that has been described as possibly a sleeping bag.  Was that the location of the garment when you entered the house?
A  Yes, sir.  It was, in fact, those garments that the military policemen were stepping around when assisting with the litter.
Q  All right.  So, they raised the litter and stepped around this garment in removing MacDonald from the premises at the time you arrived.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you observed that while you were in the house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, I can see objects on the floor right in front of the lower step.  Can you inform the grand jury what they are?
A  Yes, sir.  It is a pink curler, a plastic curler and also a plastic comb.
Q  That would be a hair curler?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And I see an afghan draped over the lower part of the garment.  Was (sic) that in that position when you arrived at the house?  And were the two pillows in the position depicted here?
A  Yes, sir.  When I initially observed that couch, those pillows were there and that afghan was on the end of the couch.
Q  Now, would you describe Exhibit No. 6?
A  No. 6 is a photograph from the dining room area into the living room area, shows the couch and the over turned coffee table, a pair of eyeglasses on the floor, and a rocking chair, and also assorted magazines and child's games underneath the coffee table.
Q  All of the objects, the eyeglasses, the slippers, the cushions on the floor, the overturned coffee table, the flower pot, the ball of earth from the flower pot, the chair near the overturned table, are these all in precisely the same position that they were when you first entered the house?
A  As I recall, yes, sir.
Q  Sir, here is an enlarged black and white photograph that shows the sofa, the coffee table, the chair and a footstool.  Could you tell us from about what location that was taken?  Would that be from somewhere near the, near the TV?
A  Yes, sir, from standing in front of the television set.
Q  I see a, sort of a ball.  It seems to be floating in the area above the chair.  Can you tell me what that is?
A  Sir, that is an overhead light, lamp.
Q  A lamp that is suspended by a wire, or string, or chain?
A  A chain.
Q  I noticed on this picture, and I show it to the Grand Jurors, a piece of paper that seems to have some scribbling such as might be made by a child.  It seems to be sort of caught by a corner of the piece of paper in one of the slats of the table.  Is that the position it was when you first entered the house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Thereafter, on its own, did that piece of paper change in any respect?
A  Yes, sir, it did slide down on the floor after that.
Q  It just slid down from perhaps vibration of people walking on the floor.
A  Vibration.
Q  Did anybody touch it to cause it --
A  No.
Q  To drop to a lower position?
A  No, sir.
Q  All right.  That's photograph No. 7, you're talking about.  Photograph No. 8 shows what?
A  This is also the coffee table from the opposite side of the previous picture, shows the legs of the coffee table and the edge of the coffee table and the bedroom slippers resting atop the leg of the coffee table.
Q  And the flower pot and certain magazines and child's game under the table.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, do you have here at this time any further pictures that relate to the living room, dining room area?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now, the next group of photographs we have start in the hall.  And will you -- The first is No. 9 and the last of this series is twenty-one.  Will you go through those and briefly explain them to the grand jury.
A  Sir, the first picture in this series is exposed looking down the hallway from the living room to the master bedroom.   In the foreground of the photo there are the items of child's clothing which was observe in the living room picture as being on the steps.  And in the background is the master bedroom and the reclining body of Colette MacDonald.
     The next photograph, No. 10, is a closer photograph from the hallway looking into the master bedroom and depicts the body of Colette MacDonald lying atop a shag carpet.  In the foreground are circles of -- that were put on top of the photograph showing bloodstains. There was another circle just at the left foot of Colette MacDonald showing a pocket which was shown to be the pocket from a pajama shirt which rested on top of the chest and also can be seen across her abdomen is a bath mat.
     The next photo was taken in the panoramic method and shows the north wall of the master bedroom and a dresser with mirror which was against that wall.  At the very bottom right of that photograph, there is a circle in red, is a knife which bore on the blade the trade name, Geneva Forge.
Q  I notice there are two tiers of drawers in that dresser, three drawers on the left and three drawers on the right.  The lower drawer on the left is very slightly pulled out.  Is that the position of that drawer at the time that you first came into the room?
A  Yes, sir, it is.
Q  And, do you see a hairbrush on top of the dresser?
A  Yes, sir.  There is a pink hairbrush just a little to the center of the photograph
Q  Was her jewelry case or jewelry box on top of the dresser there?
A  Yes, sir.  There was two boxes which contained jewelry, a wooden box here and a flowered type box which looked like a Kleenex box but which was a fabric-covered box used for storing costume jewelry.
     The next photograph, Exhibit No. 12, continues to pan the room and shows a portion of that dresser from the previous photos and shows a green vinyl covered or leatherette covered armchair upon which items of woman's clothing and some scraps of material -- remnants I guess they call them -- and a portion of the body of Colette MacDonald can also be seen.
Q  I see a telephone on the end of the dresser here and I don't see, right now, the handset which is a part of the telephone.  Can you tell me where that was?
A  Yes, sir.  The handset and the cord is down on the opposite side of the dresser, down on the floor and cannot be seen in that photograph.
     The next photograph is a close-up of this knife that was found on the master bedroom floor with the brand name Geneva Forge as it lay in front of the dresser.
     The next photo, Exhibit 14, continues to pan the room and shows from the foot region towards the head region of the body of Colette MacDonald.  It shows also the bed, a double bed minus one pillow; and the blue sheet which is on the double bed is pulled out from under the mattress.
Q  All right.  Now, I notice on the bed the sheet has been pulled out and is hanging down to the floor and towards the foot it appears to be curved back a little as though somebody were about to change or were in the process of changing the bed clothing.  Is that precisely the appearance of the bed clothing at the time you first observed this room?
A  Yes, sir, it is.
Q  And there is a towel over the lower part of Colette's abdomen.  And I can see behind that something blue which seems to be over her chest area and extends down alongside the left side of her body.  Are those items in precisely the position they were when you first entered the room?
A  Yes, sir, they are.
Q  First observed the room?
A  Yes, sir.
     The next photograph, No. 15, was exposed standing at the footboard or just past the footboard of that double bed and looking towards the northeast corner of the master bedroom.  It shows a more full view of the body of Colette MacDonald, the green armchair, and the items of pajama shirt and bath mat which were on top of her body.
     Exhibit 16 is a very similar exposure as that of the previous one and just brings in more of the hand region of her left outstretched hand and cuts short at the foot region.  Otherwise, it is basically the same exposure as the previous one.
     Exhibit 17 is taken from that same position, at the footboard of the bed, but was taken not at eye level where these other photographs were taken but in kind of a lowering of the camera to take more of a pan of the room and the body also.  But it shows basically the same view as those two previous exhibits.
     Exhibit 18 again is taken from the doorway region of the master bedroom, shooting eastward, shows a portion of the body of Colette MacDonald, a portion of the double bed and shows more of the three letters, PIG, which was printed on the headboard of the bed in what appears to be blood in the photo.
     Exhibit 19 is a close-up of the headboard of that bed in the master bedroom and shows more clearly the inscription, PIG.
     Exhibit 20 is a closer view of the body of Colette MacDonald looking from the general area of the foot board of the board again in a northeasterly direction, shows closely the pajama shirt and bath mat which were atop her body and also shows right at her elbow, her left elbow, a small item which you can barely see a red circle on it, but this was a piece of a surgeon's rubber glove.
Q  Let me ask you this question.  If a person positioned himself right at the head of her body, was her pajama top somewhat open and could he observe a part of her breast and her chest area?
A  Yes.  The upper part of her left breast was exposed.
     Exhibit 21 is a close-up view from standing over the body of Colette MacDonald looking down onto the area from her waist up, again showing the bath mat and the pajama shirt.
And again in the corner here, circled in red, is that small piece of a surgeon's glove.
Q  All right.  In addition to these pictures of the bedroom, do you have other original photographs that you brought of the master bedroom?
A  No, sir, not the original ones.
Q  Well, let me ask you this.  Does this reflect the original -- This was taken I take it after Colette's body was removed and after the pocket which was at her feet was removed.  But, insofar as the upper part of this picture is concerned, blocking out the lower third, does that represent the appearance of the west wall of the master bedroom prior to removal or anything?
A  Yes, sir, it does.
Q  In other words, when you first went into the room this pile of garments was in the position it is now?
A  Yes, sir.  That's a blue sheet which matches the sheet, in color, as the one that was on the bed and also a multi-colored bedspread.  And they laid there on the floor in front of the closet door as they were when I initially arrived at the scene.
Q  All right.  I'm going to pass this around not to show the appearance as Mr. Ivory first entered the premises of the rooms with Colette's body in it -- The body has been removed -- But, I'll block over the, that part of the room, and it's to show the appearance of the room, looking to the west wall.  And you will notice there is a door to a closet that is slightly ajar.
Well, one panel of the three panels of the door is open.  And there is a clump of articles just inside the door and to the right which includes a blue sheet matching the sheet on the bed.
Okay.  Now, those are the pictures of master bedroom.  Now, I think we have a group of pictures of Kristen's bedroom.
     Will you refer to them by number?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And inform the Grand Jurors of what is on each of these pictures?
A  Exhibit 22 shows the doorway leading into the north bedroom or that of the smaller child, Kristen MacDonald.  And it shows a bloody foot impression just at the doorway on the floor.
     Exhibit 23 continues from the previous picture leading into the bedroom of Kristen MacDonald and shows an additional footprint in blood on the wooden floor.  Also shows parts of items of children's toys.
     Exhibit 24 depicts the bed and the body of Kristen MacDonald as was initially observed.
Also shows items of clothing -- or, excuse me -- not of clothing, but of children's toys and stuffed dolls.
     Exhibit 25 shows again in panning more of the room and it's more of a close-up of the body and the bed of Kristen MacDonald and items of her toys.
     Exhibit 26 is a close-up of the body of Kristen MacDonald, as was initially observed.
Q  All right.  With regard to these three pictures I want to ask you a couple of questions.
I notice each of them shows a, sort of a nursing bottle right next to her head, nipple pointing towards her mouth.  Is that the precise position that that was in when you first saw the body?
A  Yes, sir.  It is.
Q  Now, I see a spot of blood on the floor, a mass of blood on the sheet, and on Article 26 or Photograph 26, I see a mass of blood on a sheet.  It's obscured by the earlier pictures.  You can see there's a little bit on 25, but it's entirely -- seems to be entirely obscured by the blanket in 24.  Is that the precise appearance of the covers and the bed clothing as you first saw them, the child and the body?
A  Yes, sir.  That is as it was initially observed and it's just a matter of camera angle which brings it out more clearly than others.
Q  Nothing was disturbed?  Nothing was changed at the time this photo was made?
A  No, sir.
Q  Were these photographs taken prior to the time Dr. Neal made his examination?
A  Yes, sir, they were.
Q  Do you have any additional photographs that were taken prior to Dr. Neal coming into that room?
A  Yes, sir.  I have two additional photos of Kristen MacDonald's bedroom which shows more in the three hundred and sixty degree coverage that we attempted to make in that room.
Q  Let's just show the south wall of that bedroom and the lower part of the bed.  And I see that on the second you can see a part of Kris's body but not the entire body.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Let's mark these with the next two numbers.

(Ivory Exhibit No. 41 and No. 42 Marked for Identified.)

MR. WOERHEIDE:  What are the numbers you assigned these photographs?

COURT REPORTER:  41 and 42.

Q  Mr. Ivory, I have a series of photographs, Nos. 27 through 35.  Can you briefly describe them to the grand jury, trying to show the, or indicate the prospective from which they were taken; in other words, the approximate location of the photographer and how he pointed his camera?
A  Exhibit 27 is of the south bedroom or the bedroom of Kimberly MacDonald.  The photo was taken from the area of the foot of the bed or more precisely standing in front of the closet which was along the eastern wall of that room.  And it shows the bed area or a portion of the bed area of Kimberly.
     Exhibit 28 is another photograph taken from the doorway from the hallway into the bedroom and shows more in a continuing pan of the room and the bed of Kimberly MacDonald.
Q  Now, does it show the little hi-fi set that she had right inside the door on the north wall of the room?
A  Yes, sir, it does.
     The next photo is very similar to the previous one.  This one being Exhibit 29 and it shows generally the same scene only it is in color.
     Exhibit 30 is taken standing at the foot of the bed, at the left bedpost at the foot, looking across, diagonally across the bed, and shows a portion of the body of Kimberly MacDonald as it was initially found.
Q  Now, I see her hair was lying behind her back and on top of the sheet.  And it appears to be bloody.  Were the strands of hair, the tips of her hair bloody?
A  Yes, sir, they were.
Q  I see no pool of blood there.  Was there any blood that was compatible with the blood that was on the hair?  In other words, from which her hair could have picked up this blood?
A  No, sir.  There were no corresponding injuries in that region that would have, which would have bloodied the hair tips.  No, sir.
     Exhibit 31 was taken from the side of the bed closet to the south wall in front of the window and it's looking down onto the body of Kimberly MacDonald as she lay in the bed.
     Next exhibit, Exhibit No. 32, was taken from the opposite side of the bed and is just an opposite view looking at the bed and the body of Kimberly MacDonald.
     Exhibit 33 is continuing of the panoramic view of the room and shows a hi-fi set, a little phonograph and phonograph record which was just inside the door on the north wall of Kimberly's bedroom.
     Exhibit 34 is a close-up of the top of that hi-fi set showing the phonograph, phonograph record and other items which were on top of the hi-fi set.
     Exhibit 35 was taken again from the foot area of the bed looking back out into the hallway and showing the door and part of the closet of Kimberly's bedroom.
Q  Now, do you have any other photographs here that were taken prior to any changes being made?
A  Yes, sir.  I have four photographs.  Excuse me, three.  This one is -- Three photographs.
The view depicts the doorway and the immediate area inside the doorway of Kimberly's bedroom taken from the hallway in front of the hallway closet.  And it shows a bookcase that was used for storage of toys.
     The next photograph is a close-up of that bookcase with all the books and toys and usual paraphernalia for a young girl.
     The next photograph, the third photograph is a photograph of an armchair, a woodenframed armchair and the window and radiator on the south wall of Kimberly's bedroom.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  We'll mark these as 43, 44 and 45 respectively.

(Ivory Exhibits Nos. 43, 44, and 45 Marked for Identification.)

Q  I show you your Exhibit 39.  Can you tell us what that is?
A  Yes, sir.  Thirty-nine depicts the master bathroom.  This photograph was taken standing in front of the bathtub looking into the corner and the sink that was in that master bathroom.
Q  All right.  Does it show anything in the sink?
A  It shows a portion of a bloody, wet Kleenex and also blood drops along the side of the sink basin.
Q  All right, sir, I show you Exhibit 36, 37 and 38.  Can you tell us what they indicate?
A  Yes, sir.  These show the utility room, which is a room just off the master bedroom.
     No. 36 was taken from standing near the doorway, just inside the doorway of the master bedroom, looking straight onto the outside door.  Now, this was not the original position of the door, and I can explain it in this way.  Is while these photos were taken, the body was still in place and we felt we had better close the door rather than have curiosity seekers and perhaps some people with phonographic equipment take pictures of the body.
Q  All right.  Now, you notice between the first picture and the last picture the, there's a change in the position of the curtain on the door and the first picture appears to be taken while it was still dark outside and the last picture appears to have been taken after daylight has come.  Can you explain that?
A  The curtain was in different positions again to keep curiosity seekers from having visual access to the house.
Q  Does the first picture reflect what the position of the curtain was when you entered the house?
A  Yes, sir.
     Exhibit 36 will accurately reflect the position of the curtain.
Q  And 38 reflects the position of the curtain after it was drawn to prevent curiosity seekers from peering through the door?
A  Yes, sir.  And 38 additionally shows more of that utility room, specifically the electric clothes dryer and some other items.
Q  Now, was any change made besides the change in the position of the curtain?
A  No, sir.  And the closing of the door and the curtain, that's the only thing.
Q  Do you have any other photographs there that were made before any changes were --
A  Yes, sir.  I have this photo of the kitchen.  This photo was taken from the kitchen door in the dining room area, looking directly into the kitchen and onto the sink.
Q  Have we given these numbers?
A  No, sir.
Q  Will you put them in order and we'll give them numbers.

(Ivory Exhibits Nos. 46, 47 and 48 Marked for Identification.)

Q  All right, Mr. Ivory, referring to them by number, now will you describe them to the grand jury and we'll pass them around.  Just tell us what they indicate.
A  Exhibit 46 depicts the kitchen sink and cabinet area as shot from the kitchen door by the dining room.
     Forty-seven shows a closer photo of the cabinet and sink area and the left portion of that cabinet and sink area.
     And the next exhibit, 48, shows again a closer view of the cabinet and sink area showing the right portion of the cabinet and sink area.
Q  Mr. Ivory, I notice that, according to these photographs, when you went into the house one panel of the door in the master bedroom had been slid over and that door alone was open.  Now, how about the closets in the children's rooms " had they been opened?
A  No, sir.  They had not been opened.  The only closet doors that I recall being open -- now these are sliding closet doors -- is the one in the master bedroom at the foot of the bed.
And also a closet which would be probably considered a linen closet which was in the hallway just outside of the master bedroom.
A  It was open six to eight inches as I recall.
Q  When you looked in that closet, what did you observe in the closet, if anything?
A  There were items of linen, towels and sheets, and, on the top shelf " not the very top, but the top two shelves as I recall " there were numerous items of medical equipment, medications, surgical equipment, that type of thing.  Syringes.
Q  I notice in the master bedroom one -- the lower drawer of the left side of Colette's bureau or chest of drawers was not fully closed.  Was it possible to look in there and see anything that was in the drawer?
A  No, sir, not in the position that it was at that time.
Q  Now, was there any evidence of the house being ransacked in any way?  Was there any evidence, for example, that the jewel boxes had been ransacked or that anybody had gone through the house looking for things of value that they might carry with them?
A  No, sir.  Later in the morning and during that following week we did a complete search of the house, going through all the drawers, going through the entire house, and there was no sign any of these drawer, even though it was slightly ajar, that anyone had rummaged through it.  Things were laid out as neatly as you could expect in a drawer.  The closets, where clothing hung, again were not disturbed.  The television which is a portable type of color television set was not disturbed.  The stereo set is an attractive looking stereo set, had not been handled.  There was no apparent attempt to steal that.  There were items of somewhat valuable, or appeared to be valuable, crystal ware in a china cabinet in the dining room which was not messed with.
     The kitchen had not been ransacked or gone through in any way.
     Liquor had not been stolen.
     In the closet in the master bedroom there was an assortment of weaponry; such as, there was a Marlin or Winchester lever action 30/30 which was just inside the closet door which had not been taken and was open to view.
     There was absolutely no signs of any vandalism or ransacking or anyone going in there for the purpose of stealing anything such as jewelry boxes.  It was quite an assortment of costume type jewelry that didn't appear to be valuable, but it was there and it had not been stolen or apparently rummaged through.
     It was just a complete absence of any signs of intruders bent on vandalism or theft.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Mr. Foreman, I notice it's about a quarter of twelve.  The next series of questions that I'm going to ask him relate to the search which continued over a week and the preservation of articles of evidence that were found.  Do you want to take a break now for lunch?

FOREMAN:  Yes, we'll take a lunch break until one o'clock.


The afternoon session of the grand jury reconvened at 1:00 p.m.  The following proceedings were had to wit:

(MR. WILLIAM IVORY resumes the stand)

Q  Mr. Ivory, you realize that your memory at this time is taken under the oath previously administered?
A  Yes, sir, I do.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Will you give this the next number.

(Ivory Exhibit No.  49 Marked for Identification)

Q  This was previously marked MacDonald Exhibit 3.  It is now also marked Ivory Exhibit 49.
Mr. Ivory, does this show the corner of the living room with the sofa, a part of the coffee table and the chair, the small table in the corner, the lamp and the curtain prior to anything being touched in the crime scene?
A  Yes, sir, to the best of my ability.
Q  And does this show how that paper with the child's scribbling on it because loose and slipped down across the top of the coffee table?
A  Yes, sir.  Where one corner of the paper had been stuck in one of the slats of the table it in some manner came loose and just slid down.
Q  Mr. Ivory, the Grand Jurors have had some questions with specific reference to several of these exhibits.

(Witness is excused for a moment.)

Q  Now, Mr. Ivory, referring to Ivory Exhibits 1 and 2, you'll notice in 2 there are certain items that appear which are readily identifiable.  One is a clipboard on top of the newspaper which is laying on top of the TV.  Another is some packages of flashbulbs, some yellow film boxes and there's an ashtray containing several cigarette butts.  And, on the floor, in front of the closet door, there is a rather formless object that takes up little room.
     Can you tell us approximately how much time, subsequent to the taking of the black and white photograph, the color photograph was made?
A  The black and white photograph, or Exhibit 1, was one of the very first photographs taken in the house by Staff Sergeant Alexander the initial photographer there and reflects the scene as it was in the early, early morning.
     The colored photograph, marked my Exhibit 2, was taken later that morning and shows a clipboard which belongs to -- I can see a traffic temp plate which is used by military policemen in the diagramming of traffic accidents, also flashbulbs in the foreground and this formless object.
     At initially viewing this photograph, I was of the opinion that that may have been a pillow that was taken from the house with MacDonald in the ambulance and then returned.  But, I have subsequently talked this over with some of the other people who were there at the crime scene with me, and they have reminded me of what that actually is, and it was a plastic bag, a garbage can liner if you would, that size of a plastic bag that we use to put our crime scene processing trash in so as not to put it in with the household trash or put it somewhere it would contaminate anything in the crime scene.
     And that, as my recollection has recalled, is what that formless object is there down on the floor.
     As I stated, this color photograph was taken much later than the black and white.  And the black and white will accurately reflect the initial scene.
Q  All right.  Now, that bag would be used for the discarded flashbulbs, the film boxes, the cigarette butts, to remove them from the scene.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, Major Parson was standing by the front door, right by the desk there and I assume he was smoking cigarettes and put them in the ashtray.
A  Yes.
Q  Okay.  Now I have the names of the various CID agents:  Grebner, Hawkins, Black and Orr. I have a reference to FBI agents.  When did these people show up?
A  Mr. Grebner arrived probably around five or a little after five in the morning.  Mr. Hawkins, about the same time.  Mr. Black arrived about ten minutes to five, quarter of five, ten minutes to five in the morning along with Mr. Shaw.  They arrived together.
     The FBI agents arrived --
Q  How about Orr?
A  Orr?  All right.  He came to the house probably about the same time.  Five o'clock was the time, or just before five was the time the agents started arriving at the scene.  And Mr. Orr just came.  He didn't even go through the house.  He came to the front room of the house and then he was sent back to the CID office to set up -- I guess you could call it a command post to be a filtering point for all information flowing into the office and back out to people who were at that time starting to hit the streets and do neighborhood checks.
     The FBI agents, they arrived probably around seven or so, seven or later.
Q  Now, who did you retain at the house to assist you in collecting and preserving evidence?
A  Initially, Bob Shaw and Paul Connolly stayed with me.  And they stayed -- We stayed together, the three of us, until eight o'clock when the bodies were removed.  And, at that time, Paul Connolly was assigned to accompany the bodies to the hospital to obtain the clothing and other necessary items in evidence from the body.  And, from that point on Bob Shaw and I remained as the persons processing the crime scene.  Now, Mr. Grebner remained there for awhile and he came in and out.  But the persons processing the crime scene and the people who were picking up the evidence and so forth were -- the fragile pieces of evidence -- were Bob Shaw and myself until such time as our laboratory team arrived which was about eleven a.m.
Q  All right.  With respect to all of these people, Grebner, Hawkins, Black and you saw Orr didn't really come into the house " he reported and then he left " and the FBI agents, as the CID agent in charge, did you give them any warning or caution or instructions as to, as to how they should conduct themselves on the crime scene?
A  I don't recall, sir.  It's hardly necessary.  Everybody who's named there is accustomed to going into a crime scene and they know not to touch anything unless it's absolutely necessary.
Q  All right.  Now, you say the bodies were removed about eight o'clock.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.  At eight o'clock.
Q  How many stretchers or litters were used for that purpose?
A  Two.  The first litter was a canvas-type field litter, was used and the two children were placed on it.  Not side by side, but I think Kimberly was up at the top and Kristen down at the bottom of the stretcher.
     And there was another litter used, one single litter was used for the body of Colette.
Q  Now, were those litters moved down the hall and out the front door?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Do you know who the medics were that came in and removed the bodies?
A  No, sir, by name I cannot tell you.  They're reflected somewhere in our report.  But, off the top of my head I can't positively say who they were.
Q  Now, was Grebner in the front part of the house; that is, the living room area, at the time the bodies were being removed?
A  No, sir.  The best I recall he was not.
Q  Well, do you remember at the time the bodies were removed, that those articles that were down over the steps were changed from one place to another place?
A  Yes, sir.  They were taken up from the steps and placed on top of the couch which is right nearby the hallway.
Q  Do you recall who did that?
A  It was either Mr. Grebner or Mr. Shaw.
Q  Now, when the medics came in to remove the bodies, were you standing in the front of the house or the rear of the house?  Did you observe them come in?
A  We had finished gathering the fragile stuff from the bodies and we went down to the -- in fact there were Shaw and myself -- went down  to the front room or the living room and escorted -- They were out on the landing -- And we escorted them into the rooms where they picked up the bodies.  I was with them at all times.
Q  Well, there is one that has been described as wearing blue jeans and a sweater and his hair a little bit long.  Do you recall that?
A  I specifically do not recall.  It was brought to my attention later that the ambulance driver, not the litter bearer, but the ambulance driver was called in as an emergency action by the hospital because they were short of people and they were using up quite a bit of their ambulance staff.  And an ambulance driver was called in from his barracks and he was wearing blue jeans with a field jacket, an army field-type jacket over his civilian clothes.
Q  Who observed him?
A  He was observed by other agents in the house.  I specifically did not observe him because my attention was directed mainly on the people handling the bodies and with the bodies and the crime scene itself.
Q  You said prior to the time that the medics came in to remove the bodies, you were collecting fragile evidence.  Now, would that include the pajama tops?
A  Yes, sir.  The pajama tops.
Q  Would it include the towel?
A  The pajama tops, the towel, the pocket, the piece of rubber surgeon's glove, the bloody piece that was near the body.  There was a clear piece of surgeon's glove found on the bed.
     And then, in one of the photos there, it shows the closet and that bundle of the bedspread and sheet.  No, that was not gone.  This was later that that piece of surgeon's glove was found in there.
     But, items such as this that would be destroyed or badly contaminated if it weren't moved immediately prior to the movement of the bodies or anything else like that.
     But that's what I mean by fragile evidence.
Q  Getting back to this picture, which is Ivory Exhibit No. 40, again, I told the Grand Jurors at the time I was offering this to show how the scene appeared; that is, the upper part of the picture, prior to the time that anything was moved in that area.  Now, does this indicate that the bedcovers had been slightly moved also?
A  Yes.  Initially they were folded over.  And, when were picking up the fragile evidence around the body, that part of the sheet was folded back to see if there was anything underneath it and returned to its initial place.
Q  Let me show the Grand Jurors.  This is all I'm concerned with.  This is all.  The bedcovers here were changed slightly looking for fragile evidence.
     Let's remove this overlay here.  Well, we might as well leave it up because it shows the beds where Colette's body was.
     I have here a drawing -- Maybe we'd better give this a number.

(Ivory Exhibit No. 50 Marked for identification.)

Q  Would you say that this drawing is not precisely to scale, that certain things are not shown in the exact position where they were when you originally came on the crime scene, but they are in some proximate relation to that crime scene?  I'm referring to that chair that's nearest to the coffee table.  Wasn't it, in fact, closer to the coffee table than it is indicated on this drawing?
A  It would have been closer than that.
Q  And I am referring to the ice pick and the knife that were found outside the house.  They were in a slightly different position than is indicated here, were they not?
A  Yes, sir.  They were farther away from the door under a bush.
Q  Now, there is certain information here as to blood type " A, B, AB and O.  You didn't do any of the typing of the blood yourself did you?
A  No, sir, I did not.
Q  But it was reported back to you later, subsequently by the army laboratory what the blood types were?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Not only of Colette, Kimberly, Kristen and Jeffrey MacDonald but those matching blood was found in that area?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I'm going to circulate this around to the grand jury and you will see there are places where it's marked A, AB, O and B.  And he doesn't -- Mr. Ivory doesn't, of his own knowledge since he didn't type the blood himself, really can't testify to it.  He can testify as to what was reported to him as a result of the laboratory examination.  But --
Q  Does that in a general way sort of depict areas in which blood was located?
A  Yes, sir, it does.  And it was made just for the purpose of that, of plotting in a general way where each item of these bloodstains were found throughout the house.  In addition, is there back in the CID headquarters in Washington a series of drawings which show not only the floor plan of the house but each wall and the ceiling to indicate where blood was found on the walls?  And on the ceiling?
A  Yes, sir.  There is.  When we took each item of chemistry evidence, each item of evidence that was taken from the house -- most of it was chemistry -- they were plotted on the walls and each item was marked, given a number, sometimes per bedroom or by the kitchen so that we could refer back to a certain exhibit number and say, yes, that exhibit number did come from this wall.  And in fact we marked the wall with the exhibit numbers, subsequently photographed them after the evidence had been removed and then they were plotted on a toscale diagram of each room to include the ceiling, walls and floors.
Q  All right.  Now, you have referred to "fragile evidence".  In that connection, you referred to the pajama tops, the --
A  Bath mat.
Q  How about the sheet that was in the master bedroom.  Would that be in that category?
A  It would be in that category but it was not moved or inspected in detail until the bodies were removed.  At that time, we went into a deeper search of the room.  Then I went through it and I opened it up piece by piece.
Q  Now, will you describe what you found in that heap of material to the grand jury?
A  I started to open it and it was all crumbled up, the sheet and the bedspread together in a big crumbled ball.  And, as I opened it, I could see that it was bloodstained throughout, extensively bloodstained.  And I could see hairs and things in it.  And when I opened it to a certain point, I saw -- There was an entire finger section of a surgeon's rubber glove.  It was covered with blood.  At that point, I took that piece of rubber glove and put it in an evidence container, a pill vial, plastic pill vial.  And then, rather than loose any other more fragile evidence that was in that bundle of the sheet and bedspread, I put it back together and put it in and sealed it in a big, large plastic bag to be opened under laboratory conditions where they could look through the stuff carefully.
Q  Apart from any blood spots and these larger, bulkier items; such as the pajama tops, the bath mat or towel, the sheet, what other type evidence did you find in the house?
A  In the house we found the one paring knife, the Geneva Forge paring knife, the other knife being found just outside the door.
     If I could contain myself right to the master bedroom " I spent probably most of time in there.  When they were moving the body of Colette MacDonald, one corpsman went to the shoulder region of her, standing over her, and the other, to the foot area.  And they lifted her straight up and she was in rigor, rigor mortis in the top part of her body.  And so when he lifted her up her head did not fall back or anything; it was quite rigid.  And they lifted her up and put her over on the litter.  And as they lifted her up, I was there watching to make sure they didn't touch anything or disturb any evidence at all, and I noticed a big blood clot about perhaps the size of my fist right under where her head had been.  And I saw something sticking out of it.  And, as soon as they moved the body, I went right to it and I called it to the attention of Bob Shaw who was there with me in the room.
     And I said, "Look, this is some kind of a thread coming out of this blood clot.  And then as I got down more -- Oh, the bodies had been outlined on the shag carpet with a magic marker, and I could see within the body outline there was just a scattering and a profusion of the same kind of blue threads.  And so after the bodies had been removed and taken out of the house, Shaw and I went back there and went through the nap of the carpet, within the body outline, and found I'll say thirty, perhaps thirty-five or so little fibers and threads, blue fibers and threads that were all sticking out of the carpet, all the same color of dark blue which to me corresponded to the color of the seam threads and the material of the blue pajama top of the body
     And, in continuing in that room and picking up items of evidence off the floor, we took bloodstains from everywhere with the chemistry people, but other fibers of that same sort, which were ultimately identified as coming from the blue pajama shirt, were found not only in that body outline but scattered throughout the room.  In fact one was -- one or two, I believe -- were down behind the headboard of the bed right near the inscription, PIG.  There were others I believe on top of the sheet on the bed.  Other places we found these same types of threads was in the bedroom of Kimberly.  When the covers were pulled down from her and the body removed, Bob Shaw was primarily concerned with that room and he had made the body outline and all, and one of the things he collected in there was some other blue seam threads from the same pajama shirt that were found underneath the bedding after the bedding had been pulled back to expose the body we found some.  Additionally, behind the pillow in that south bedroom " Kimberly's bedroom " there were splinters from what was found, the club that was found outside the back door and identified as the murder weapon.
     In the north bedroom, in Kristen's room, again there were one or two of the blue seam threads from the pajama shirt in that room.  And in fact fingernail scraping, underneath one of her fingernails and I'm not sure left or right hand, there was a tiny blue fiber from the material.  Not the seam threads, now, but from the material itself of the pajama shirt.
Q  You mention splinters, wood splinters.  In that connect you referred to Kimberly's bedroom.  How about the master bedroom?
A  There were also splinters found around the body and around the head, on the floor near the head region of the body of Colette.  There were some splinters, perhaps that long, that were ultimately traced to the club as the origin.
Q  Now, when you examined the room, did you see a mark on the ceiling?
A  There was going diagonally across the room in the direction in right here the light, the ceiling overhead light was centered in the room, and right by it there was a series of blood splats heading say diagonally across the room.  And right at the beginning of it, there was a little indentation where it appeared some object, bloody object, when it was swung overhead, had hit the ceiling, made a little indentation, little scrape marks and continued across diagonally again, spraying the blood that was on the club in a diagonal manner across the ceiling.
Q  Now, how long did you and the men who were working with you continue your search throughout the house for physical evidence in the form of fibers, blood, threads, splinters anything of that sort?
A  The initial crime scene search started of course when we first arrived, when Shaw, Connolly and I were there, and went really into earnest when the laboratory teams from Augusta, Georgia, arrived.  And at that time we had some chemists -- I think there were two chemists -- were available to us, a fingerprint expert, an expert from the photo lab.
     And when they -- They arrived, given a quick briefing and were brought right into the house.  And we worked from this, that morning, eleven o'clock on the 17th of February through until I believe noon, I believe on the 21st.  That was the initial processing.  That's when the laboratory team took the initial load of evidence down to the lab.  Shaw and I remained there and we continued to process that house and were in and out of that house probably for the next few months, continually going back as we received feeder information from the laboratory saying, we found this in this room.  See if you can find anything else to compare with them.  Will you go back to the house?  We sealed the house is what we did.
     The initial days of the crime scene processing, we posted military police guards at the house, front and back.
     And I think it was the second day we contacted the post engineer -- they are custodial people that take care of the houses there in the housing area -- and arranged to have hasps and padlocks installed on each of the door.  And we sealed each door with railroad seals, the seals that you slide together on a railroad car and you can tell if anybody has been in the railway car because you can't break the seal that we inserted.  And each time we left the house, after that second day that is how we did it.  We kept MP's for a few days, but we kept it sealed and locked in that manner.  In fact today it is still right now sealed in that manner.
Q  When you were not there -- You had to go home and sleep once in a while.
A  Once in a great while.
Q  When you were not there was the house either under guard during the first 24 hours or thereafter sealed?
A  Yes, sir.  We sealed -- We kept the military police guards there for a number of days.
Q  And when you came back to work and the seal was broken, did you remain constantly there to supervise the work that was being done?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, was there any particular series in which the evidence was gathered?  You had fingerprints to look for, you had these fibers.  I take it you started looking for the fibers at eight o'clock?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  But, apart from that work that you did around eight o'clock in the morning in the master bedroom, what was the sequence so far as collecting evidence?
A  After the lab team arrived, the photographer went through first and while he was retaking some photos, of course after the bodies had been removed, the fingerprint man and myself stayed in the living room in the area between the couch and the coffee table where MacDonald stated that he had been attacked by these four assailants.  And we processed that portion of the living room, looking for some more of these threads and fibers from his pajama shirt in that he had mentioned that's where it had been ripped and torn over his head and ended up around his wrist.  So, we looked there to try to find some corresponding threads and fibers which we were not able to do.  We looked for bloodstains on the couch, on the coffee table, in the nap of the rug.  And Medlin is an old fingerprint examiner and he went down with his magnifying glass in fact; and we went through the nap of the carpet, trying to find anything that was foreign to the house and found nothing other than normal debris which you would find in a rug.  There was some little confetti, I think, from the child's game.  If I recall right, there was a piece of tinsel or something, old Christmas decoration.  Nothing that was out of the ordinary for normal debris I guess that you'd find in a lived-in house.
Q  All right.  Now, let me ask you this question.  Did you go through the rug in the area of the sofa, the coffee table and the chair meticulously?  Did you cover every square centimeter of it?  Did you separate the fibers throughout the entire surface of the rug looking for this evidence?
A  Yes, sir.  In that area, we did.  We pulled the nap of the carpet apart looking all through it trying to find something because we thought it was important.
Q  You covered it systematically?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  And you covered every square inch of that particular area?
A  Yes, sir.  We did.  Definitely.
Q  How about the sofa, the seams of the cushions, and this, that and the other?
A  Yes.  You couldn't dig deeply down into the cushion because of the fabric itself, but we did go through the fabric and looked as close as we possibly could even with Medlin using his -- It may sound "Dick Tracy" type, but he went down with his magnifying glass, which is the procedure when inspecting something.
Q  This area, I'd say up to about here, did you find any blood spots?
A  No, sir.
     There were -- I might say there was a spot that was found right here at the beginning of the steps.  It was -- In fact the piece of wood was cut out and sent.  It had a tiny, little speck there and we sent it off.  As I recall, it was so minute that they could not make a typing of it.
Q  Now, you found a pair of glasses?
A  Yes.
Q  Was there a blood spot on the glasses?
A  On the outer lens of one of the lenses, the left or right.  It escapes me.
Q  There was an Esquire magazine.  Was there any blood on the Esquire Magazine?
A  On the Esquire magazine, it was another cause for concern a little bit for us.  If I could refer to a picture there, I could probably more clearly explain it.  But the way the Esquire magazine was caught underneath the coffee table edge, it was overlaid with a box containing a child's game.
     I refer to my Exhibit No. 8.  As can be seen, this child's game is in this box -- some animals, punch-out type of, cut out type of paper dolls or so forth -- and they overlaid the magazine here where the first two letters of the Esquire, the "ES" were visible.  When we moved the table and started collecting these things, that is when we saw this bloodstain and the configuration of a finger on the edge of the pages over the "QU" which would not be visible here if you follow me.
     Again that was typed and I think it was A or AB, was the blood type they found.  They could not find ridge marks to make a positive identification of the fingerprint because it was on the edges of the pages, but it was in the configuration of a finger.
Q  So, the only blood marks in this area were on the --
A  Eyeglasses.
Q  Eyeglasses which were about here, the Esquire magazine which was about here, and there was one spot here but there was none on the carpet, none on the upholstery, none on the cushions, none on the floor in this part of the room.  Is that correct?
A  That is correct, sir.
Q  Now, looking at this item which is marked as Exhibit 50, I see a lot of blood in the -- just blood spots in the master bedroom, at the end of the hall, in the bathroom, each of the children's bedrooms and then again in the kitchen area.
Can you tell us about the kitchen area?
A  Again, if I could refer to a photograph I could more clearly explain it.  The kitchen --
Q  Just a second and I'll find it.
A  I refer to my Exhibit 46.  In my Exhibit 46 it shows the view from the doorway to the dining room into the kitchen, into the sink and cabinet area.  And the blood we found --
     Most concentration of blood we found in the kitchen is directly in front of this cabinet.
And you'll see later that there are about 5 spots about the size of dime, each about the size of a dime, which our lab people tell us, as they observed them, fell from a height of about twenty to thirty inches, judging by the configuration of the splash as it hit the floor and splattered.  They have a way of gauging splatter to tell from what height the blood fell.  Not just blood, but any liquid which will splatter in a certain configuration, depending on the direction of travel or from the height from which it fell.
     So, they established this twenty to thirty inches.  It's type B blood, that type of Jeffrey MacDonald.  Other blood that was found in this general area were leading into this cabinet right here, through some old cleaning utensils -- not utensils, cleaning equipment, wax, Ajax I believe, and leading to eight packages of Perry brand latex surgeon's gloves.
     Other blood that was found in the kitchen again was -- There was a very minute speck of blood on the mouthpiece of the telephone and unfortunately it was so minutes that they could not make a blood typing on it.
     I think that covers pretty much the blood evidence that was found in the kitchen.
Q  Now, will you describe for the Jurors the technique in collecting this evidence?  Now, as regards threads and fibers, I imagine it is just picking it off the surface on which it is or if it is sort of embedded in the nap of a rug, picking it out from that area and putting it in some sort of a container and then marking the container.
     Now, how about the fingerprints and the blood samples?
A  As you say, the fibers and so forth were picked up with tweezers and put in the little plastic pill containers that we acquire from the hospital.  And each vial or pill container was labeled with masking tape upon which it was written the exhibit number and the location from where it was obtained.
     The blood sampling, the chemist for the most part took a crust of blood, as much of a crust of blood as they could, and put it into sterile containers.  In some places where they couldn't get a large sampling, they took it on a saline solution on a swab and put that into a sterile test tube type of container.  Other large blood spots like were on the walls and some that were on the floor, we just took a saw, a power saw and cut them right out, took the whole -- the walls, floors, as much as we felt we needed and they felt they needed to make an accurate determination on the blood type.  And those whole sections of walls and floors were taken.
     You referred to the chemist using a so-called saline solution.  Was there any other solution that he used in testing or collecting the samples of blood?  Something called benzene?
A  Benzedrine.
Q  Benzedrine?  Benzedrine?
A  Benzedrine solution.  It's used as a field test, as a tool to tell us on the spot whether or not we're dealing with organic matter; such as blood.  They use that in some spots, specifically in the out doors.  From the back door there is a -- Well, there's a walkway which leads here to a main walkway which circles the entire house and comes out back on the street.
And from a point not far from the front door, the back door there was some spots that looked like -- Well, initially we thought someone stepped in blood and walked around the side of the house.  Even though it was wet and rainy, there was still signs of something on the walkway.
They did a field test on that and got a positive organic matter which would probably indicate that there was some blood in it.  These things were scraped up, these sampling were scraped up all the way, each place and sent to the lab.  And the laboratory determination was it was dog feces.  And somebody just stepped in it and tracked it.  But it did not originate in the house.
Q  All right, sir.  From the mark on the ceiling and the scattering of the blood on the ceiling and the walls, can you tell us approximately where somebody was standing swinging a club and in which direction he was swinging?
A  At least at one time, the assailant or the club wielder was standing here and swung the club diagonally that way.  There were splattering of blood -- The configuration of the blood again showed us that the blood was traveling in this direction.  Someone standing probably about right there and swinging that way.
Q  I take it you found blood on the side of the sheet hanging down from the bed and across on top of the bed and against the wall in this direction?
A  On the radiator, along the walls here, across the bed and even -- This chair is a little bit out of proportion there.  It should be probably closer to the edge of this carpet.  And on this baseboard there was quite a bit of blood.  On the front of the chair there was also quite a bit of blood, the blood type of Colette MacDonald.  Other blood that was found in here was scattered on the carpet in this area and in the hallway in this general area and specifically one spot right here which appeared to the result of someone bleeding directly onto that part of the carpet.  These were all collected and determined to be type AB or that of Kimberly MacDonald.  There were other blood types picked up, A and AB, mainly down through this hallway in specks.  And then we come to the footprints that were coming out of this room.
And there was one of the footprints there they said was A or AB and they couldn't make a clear determination of it because of perhaps some contamination from the floor wax.  And the other footprint, the one that was closest to the door, they did get a clearer blood type and it was type A, that of Colette MacDonald.
     Other blood that was found in the north bedroom that of Kristen was found along the side of her bed was in fact her blood, type O blood.  It was all down through here and along the side of her bed except for one area which can be seen in the photographs of Kristen's bed.
It's right at the top of the sheet.  There is a very large blood stain, again direct bleeding, result of direct bleeding rather than contamination or spurting.  And this was again type A blood that of Colette MacDonald, as was the bed sheet and the bedspread there, had the two types of blood, A and AB.
Q  Now, tell us what areas you dusted looking for fingerprints.  I say "you"; I'm using it in the plural sense for you and the gentlemen working under your direction.
A  The walls were all dusted around here and all the way down the hallway.  The entire hallway was dusted.  The top of the coffee table, of course, was dusted.  Anywhere -- All door frames were dusted.  Anywhere that you could reasonably assume that anyone would have touched anywhere in the building, be it an intruder or be it a person living in the house, that surface was dusted for fingerprints.  All flat surfaces; such as, the dresser in the master bedroom, the bed boards " head and foot boards.  They tried to get a fingerprint examination of the inscription of PIG that was on the headboard of the bed, but they could not.  But they rendered the opinion that the inscription was made by a right-handed person, using the first two fingers of the right hand, those two fingers being covered with a very thin covering such as a rubber glove and that the type of blood used for that inscription was type A, that of Colette MacDonald, and that the writer had to return to the source at least one time to complete the writing of the word.
     Other blood that was found in the master bedroom was found against the eastern wall in that area and also along the southern wall, and the radiator, again was type A blood, that of Colette MacDonald.
     The other item of chemistry-type evidence that was found in the master bedroom was the sheet that was found on top of the bed.  And, over in this region right here, was a large wet stain which appeared to be a urine stain.  This was subsequently analyzed at the lab to be urine and to be of the blood type of Kimberly, I believe AB.  I'd have to refer to my notes.
I'm sure it's from Kimberly.
     The utility room was remarkable by its absence of any kind of foreign substance or matter or bloodstains or anything of that nature.  This is a small lavatory, just the toilet and the sink, right here.  And this was clear of any type of evidence.  There were no bloodstains, no signs of anyone having been in there other than for normal usage.
Q  Well, of course, prior to the time that fingerprints were -- fingerprint dusting was performed, various people had gone in and out of the house in response to this emergency call which brought the MP's and the CID on the scene.  And the medics.  Now, were the door jambs of the outside doors, and the screen door, and the front door dusted for fingerprints on the outside that might be made by an intruder?
A  Yes, sir.
     I think that the only room that I haven't covered with the blood evidence I guess would be the master bathroom here.  And, again, this was reflected in the photograph, the small photograph of the master bathroom.  There was blood along the right-hand side and the front portion of the basin, the wash basin, and that was shown to be type B blood, I believe that of Jeffrey MacDonald.
     Exhibit 39.
Q  Will you just hold that up to the Grand Jurors and show them where these bloodstains --
A  The bloodstains were along the side of the wash basin and in front and there's this Kleenex or tissue, pink tissue in there.  It was also diluted blood.  But this blood along this side is type B or that of Jeffrey MacDonald.
Q  Now, did you participate in the discussion or the interrogation -- the discussion with or the interrogation of Captain MacDonald on April 6, 1970?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  It has been alleged as an act of impropriety on the part of the CID agents involved that a certain statement was made -- Let's first get it on the record.  Who participated in this interrogation of Captain MacDonald?
A  Captain MacDonald, of course, was the subject of the interview and interrogation.  There was Mr. Franz Grebner, the chief of the CID at Fort Bragg, Special Agent Robert Shaw and myself.
Q  Now, the allegation specifically is that somebody used this language: "When hippies kill someone, they let the body stay where it falls.  They don't move it."  Tell us about that.
A  It sounds like a statement that was or would have been made there.  It sounds reasonable to me.  It was part of the interrogation technique to get Captain MacDonald to open up.
Q  Do you recall what Captain MacDonald's comment was at that time?
A  No, sir.  I'm afraid I would have to reflect back to his statement.  I really don't.  It was something to the -- In agreement to what we said.  His exact words I just cannot recall.
Q  But it's a matter of record?
A  Yes, sir.  It's a matter of record.
Q  One of the complaints is, that was made or levied at the CID examination, made of the house itself, was that certain fingerprints were destroyed.  Can you tell us about that?  While you are in the process of telling us about it, tell us how the technician who was trying to make a record of these fingerprints was proceeding to make that record.  Was he using photographic equipment and what were the circumstances of his using that photographic equipment?
A  The fingerprint technician, as he dusted the walls and found an identifiable or a latent print, he would call a photographer who was following right with him.  They would develop the fingerprint with the dusting powder to the maximum extent possible and then photograph it in close.
Q  Now, do you recall what sort of equipment the photographer was using?
A  He was using a twin lens reflex camera I believe on a tripod.
Q  Was he making time exposures?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Was he working at a very close focal distance?
A  Yes, sir he was.  To try to get a one to one ratio on the fingerprints.
Q  Is focus very critical when you're working at a very close surface?
A  Yes, sir, very critical when you're dealing with something like the ridgelines of a fingerprint.
Q  All right.  Do you have any idea how long those time exposures were?  I'm sure they extended over a -- They varied from the location, depending upon the amount of light that was available.  But would they extend over a period of a number of seconds, for example?
A  No, sir, they weren't that long of an exposure, but they probably ran half a second perhaps, or a second, depending again on the lighting.
Q  Do you have any experience in photography yourself?
A  Somewhat.  Yes, sir.  But I'm not an expert by any means.
Q  Can you tell if there is any vibration when you're taking an exposure of a half second or a second that it might affect the sharpness of the image on a photographic film?
A  Yes, sir.  It definitely would.
Q  Now, I guess we'll have to ask one of our about this.  But, as a result of the initial series of photographs.  Was it ascertained that some of the shots did not come out as well as they were hoped to come out?
A  Yes, sir.  Some of them were blurred.  And I should say after they were photographed these fingerprints were covered with adhesive.  Not adhesive tape, but with scotch tape, transparent scotch tape, in order to preserve them and keep them on the walls and where ever they were found.  And so they went back to the laboratory to develop the film and saw that some of the fingerprints were blurred.  And they come back up to retake the pictures of the fingerprints and they noticed in some of the fingerprints, the fingerprint powder had, the moisture or something had adhered a little bit too much to the cellophane tape and made it, some of them -- I'll use a small " four or five -- unsuitable for identification.
Q  In other words, the ridgelines had become slightly blurred?
A  Yes, sir.