Grand Jury

August 16, 1974

Testimony of Jeffrey MacDonald

(FRIDAY MORNING, AUGUST 16, 1974, 9:00 A.M.)

Whereupon, DR. JEFFREY R. MACDONALD, being called back to the witness stand, was examined and testified as follows:

Q  Dr. MacDonald, you understand that your testimony at this time is pursuant to the oath that you were administered on Monday of this week as a witness?
A  Yes, I do.

FOREMAN:  Everyone is here at this time.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Dr. MacDonald, before we resume with the diagram, there are a few items that I would like to allude to.
    Yesterday morning, you will recall I asked you again with respect to the notes that you had prepared back in April and May of 1970 for the use of your attorneys and which you turned over to them.
    You informed us that you'd let us know your answer at one o'clock, and then that was -- we just didn't get back to it.
    Have you given further thought to that, sir?
A  Yes, I have. Mr. Segal asked me to ask you if -- we don't even have the notes here. That's what's being packed in his truck, all those files to go back to the west coast, and he and I are going to get together in San Francisco after he unpacks and look at the notes, and he'll be in contact with you.
    I presume he will get whatever he can to you.
Q  All right, but --
A  But I really have nothing here to give you anyway.
Q  All right, I'll expect to hear further from you --
A  Right.
Q  -- through Mr. Segal concerning this matter.
A  Right.
Q  Now, you did mention on the fifteenth, you'd served at the Hamlet Hospital and that there was a little girl there who required surgical treatment. I -- I think you said she had a burst appendix and she was the -- you treated her during the day, and you -- as you recall you took a look at her of a morning before you left and returned home?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  What was the sort of treatment that you gave her?
A  Ah, she was -- I think I had to start an I.V. on her, and give her some blood; if this is the same weekend.
Q  Yeah.
A  If this is the person, she was bleeding post-operatively -- you know -- in her abdomen, nothing visible.
Q  This was internal bleeding?
A  Right, and the nurse -- it couldn't get -- the original call -- you know -- now that you ask me, the original call was for an I.V., and I went to start an intravenous needle in the girl's arm to give her some fluid.
    And when I got to see her, she looked terrible, so I examined her and started an I.V., began giving her intravenous fluids, and got her blood count and compared the blood count to the prior blood count, and she was obviously hemorrhaging, losing considerable blood inside her abdomen.
    So we cross matched her blood and gave her some blood.
    I think she got two units that day, something like that.
    And I talked to the attending physician, the private physician who was in charge of the case, and he said transfer her to County Hospital.
Q  Did you actually withdraw some of her blood for testing purposes -- to analyze the blood as to her blood count, or is that done by a member of the staff there?
A  I don't know. They couldn't start an I.V. So I started the I.V. I probably drew some blood at the same time.
    I believe that's why I got the original call. They couldn't -- you know -- in a smaller person, the I.V. is harder to start and the nurse couldn't start it.
Q  Well, what do you mean by start an I.V.? Does that mean causing the vein to swell and injecting the needle in a vein?
A  Right, and --
Q  Actually --
A  -- then you take it out.
Q  -- so the liquid can pass?
A  Right, well, it's a needle with a polyethylene tube over the needle. So you put both in and withdraw the needle and leave the plastic candler in the vein.
Q  Well, when you administer an I.V., what sort of fluid do you use? Is it serum or is it whole blood or is it --
A  Well, initially it was like a saline-type fluid. It was probably something called lactated Ringers which I think she eventually got well. You know, she got whole blood.
Q  Would that be administered by you or a member of the staff?
A  Normally the physician starts the blood, and then he leaves and he's called if there is a blood reaction.
Q  Was that the treatment you gave her during the day or was it the treatment you gave her that morning just before you left? I think you said her mother spent the night there with her?
A  Right, it would have been -- let me think now -- she would have gotten -- if this is all correct -- you know -- if this is the right time, I think she would have gotten it on Sunday. She would have gotten her blood that Sunday, and the following morning it would have been a repeat of the test, and then a transfer to the County Hospital.
Q  That was done I take it after you left?
A  Correct.
Q  Do you remember this little girl's name?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Was there a record of her blood type at the hospital?
A  I'm sure there is.
Q  Is that a standard type procedure as soon as a patient is admitted to type them?
A  No, no, only if there's a potential need for transfusion.
Q  Well, there was a potential --
A  (Interposing) For her there was, sure, there'd be a record for her, because she received blood.
Q  I don't suppose you recall what type blood it was by any chance?
A  No, sir. I --
Q  Ah --
A  -- normally wouldn't even know that by the way.
Q  I see.
A  I just match up numbers on the blood -- the bag of blood when it comes.
Q  Unh-hunh, now, you made a statement in response to our request concerning a polygraph or a sodium amytal test, and it was all couched in the first person singular. And I know it was your statement, but did you prepare this in collaboration with Mr. Malley?
    Did he assist you in preparing it?
A  Yes, he did.
Q  How about Mr. Segal? Did he assist you to prepare it?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now, going back to the time that -- that you were going to bed, you said that Kris had wet the bed.
    You also said you hadn't turned the light on.
    Was there enough light for you to perceive the wet spot, or was this something you observed when you went to pick her up and felt her?
    I mean, was it because of the dampness or because of visual inspection you were able to tell she had wet the bed?
A  I would presume some of both, but I'm pretty sure you could see that.
Q  Now, you have testified that when these two men which are designated on that chart as B and C, were attacking you, you observed -- let's say -- the flash of a blade of some sort in the hands of one of these persons.
    Can you tell us whether the blade that you saw just for an instant appeared to be a knife blade or an ice pick blade? Or a blade of a different type? I mean, just give us as best you can a description of how that blade appeared to you.
A  My impression was that it was a knife blade.
Q  A knife blade?
A  Unh-hunh (yes), it was really just an impression of a blade -- you know -- I didn't --
Q  Some knives, particularly those made of stainless steel have a bright shiny blade. Other knives, particularly those that are made of non-stainless steel, with the passage of time, the blade becomes dark.
A  Unh-hunh.
Q  Was it a bright shiny blade --
A  No.
Q  -- or a dark blade?
A  I just -- I don't remember -- you know -- a bright shine. It was a blade, so I would say it was not like a shiny blade on, say, a hunting knife or something like that.
Q  Well, can you give us an idea of the size of it? Would it be as large as, let's say, as a hunting knife --
A  No, and it --
Q  -- or as small as a paring knife?
A  My impression it was bigger than a paring knife, but it didn't appear -- you know -- it didn't appear, say, to be a big knife like is used in the kitchen -- you know -- or anything like that.
Q  Unh-hunh, where were the knives kept in your household, sir?
A  In the kitchen.
Q  And were they in a drawer next to the sink or under the sink?
A  Ah, in a drawer, you know, in the sink front, I believe.
Q  Would that be to the left of the sink?
A  I don't remember.
Q  To the right of the sink?
A  I honestly don't remember.
Q  And I suppose that in your household, as in my household and in many other households, you open the drawer and there is a jumble of utensils --
A  That's right.
Q  -- knives, forks, spoons, ladles, various items that are used around a kitchen in preparing the food for the family?
A  Right.
Q  Now, in most households there are dishwashing gloves. Did Colette have some dishwashing gloves?
A  Right.
Q  Do you recall their appearance or color?
A  Yeah, she had a yellow pair of regular dishwashing gloves.
Q  I suppose she kept those on the sink?
A  In the area, top of the refrigerator, in the sink, or something like that.
Q  And you described gloves being on the hands of one of these individuals or what you felt to be gloves, did you get a glimpse of the color of these gloves?
A  No, sir.
Q  That was purely a touch sensation, and not a visual sensation?
A  Right.
Q  Now, you did say that you collected various medicines and things that could be used for medical treatment, emergency type situations, and you did have surgical gloves around the house, did you not?
A  Right.
Q  Can you tell us where those were kept?
A  They were kept in the box they came in, either under the -- either in the hall -- the hall closet next to the main bathroom or in the -- under the sink.
Q  And I take it Colette used them from time to time when doing things like painting for example?
A  Right.
Q  We have a photograph of her painting and she appears to be wearing surgical gloves?
A  Right.
Q  Did you on occasion use them?
A  When I did the dishes sometimes. She also used them for the dishes.
Q  Let me ask you this: why would you use surgical gloves in doing the dishes in preference to regular dishwashing gloves?
A  No real preference, except the usual. I would -- you know -- I would suppose like, well, whichever was easier.
    Well, her -- the gloves that she normally bought for kitchen use were probably small for me. They would be hard to put on.
Q  Well, when you washed the dishes, do you use hot water?
A  Certainly.
Q  Real hot or tepid?
A  Usually pretty hot.
Q  Well, surgical gloves don't protect you from the heat of the water, do they?
A  No.
Q  Do they have a tendency to stretch or deform when the temperature is increased?
A  Ah, I have never noticed it. They may. I don't know.
Q  I take it the dishwashing gloves, they fit Colette but they didn't necessarily fit you?
A  I have used them, but now that you ask, they were kind of tight. They kind of hold my fingers together.
Q  Unh-hunh, now, going back to the struggle that you had where your assailants, A, B, C and D, while this was going on, did you hear any sort of a thud or a bang?
A  No.
Q  If there had been a thud or a bang, say for example from the coffee table being toppled, would you have heard it?
A  I doubt it.
Q  In other words, you were so engrossed in defending yourself?
A  That would be my reaction, yes.
Q  And distracted by the screams of Colette and Kimberly that --
A  Right.
Q  -- that probably would not make an impression upon you?
A  Right.
Q  Do you recall inflicting any injury on any of these attackers, A, B, or C, such as a scratch or a bruise?
A  Yes, the -- the -- you know -- I recollect that at various times, that I -- there was one episode in the early part in the fight when I did hit someone it did seem to me in the face.
    I really don't know how effective it was.
Q  Are you more effective as a puncher with your left hand or your right hand?
A  Oh, my right hand.
Q  Well, you hit someone in the face, would that be a right-handed punch?
A  Ah, it could have been either. I actually thought it was left.
Q  You think it was a left-handed punch?
A  Right.
Q  So chances are if you struck them on the head, it would be on the left side of the head?
A  I don't follow that.
Q  Well, a left-handed punch comes from the left side and normally would strike the person who was confronting you from straight on ahead of you, it would strike on the left part of his body unless you missed and let's say you were striking -- or intending to strike him here and you struck him over here? (Indicating)
A  Well, a left hook would normally hit on the right side or a straight on --
Q  Yeah, you're right.
A  -- on --
Q  You're right. I misspoke myself, but the right side of his body --
A  Right.
Q  -- and the left side facing you?
A  Right, but in this instance -- you know -- the recollection that I have, it was someone's face -- you know -- and it was more like -- it was while I was fending off one of the blows with the club, really, and it wasn't really a good punch -- you know -- but I thought I hit a person -- I thought the black male in the face.
Q  Unh-hunh, that -- think that would be a glancing blow or a direct blow?
A  Glancing.
Q  A closed fist or --
A  I don't know.
Q  Well, I'm just wondering if there was any possibility of a scratch?
A  Ah --
Q  Or --
A  Yeah, I'm not trying to be imprecise. I'm trying to be precise.
Q  I understand.
A  The recollections are not at all as clear as we are making them sort of sound now. I really don't know if it was that specific blow, but there was like a scratch at one time.
    Someone else has asked me that at some time. I don't know who it was, and -- you know -- and the answer was, there was a scratch like on a face at one time.
Q  Would that be A, B, or C?
A  My impression was A.
Q  Now, we have indicated the movement of A during this struggle on the chart. And you also indicated that D moved, and I -- from your testimony I take it that she moved from the point indicated on the diagram to a point slightly to the right and I wonder if you would at this time indicate where as you recall she moved to from the position indicated there?
A  Now, this is again, as I said yesterday, this is really reconstruction, because I didn't really see the movement. I saw a knee.
Q  You saw a knee as you were going down. Indicate that --
A  Right, trying --
Q  -- indicate that point.
A  All right, which would be in this area here.
Q  All right, sir, there is a reasonable inference that the knee you saw was the knee of the woman rather than the knee --
A  Right.
Q  -- of one of the male attackers?
A  Right.
Q  Now, as these people were moving around in the course of this struggle, can you tell whether they were wearing shoes? I mean, did you hear the sound that you would normally hear from people moving about with shoes on their feet?
A  Sir, I have no recollection at all.
Q  Now, your pajama top was torn in the course of the struggle, as I recall your statement, it was either torn or pulled over your head?
A  Right.
Q  Now, a pajama top as found wasn't -- was in fact torn. It had a tear in it.
    Now, according to your recollection, that tear occurred during the course of this struggle?
A  I don't know. I'm not aware of that.
Q  Well, can you -- let's try to eliminate any possibility of any other tear.
    Did you engage in any activity from the time you became aware of the fact that you were lying on the floor at the end of the hallway, indicated in the diagram, and you put the body of Colette -- when you say you regained consciousness, the pajama top was wrapped around your hands and you apparently they were still around your hands until you got down to the bedroom.
    Now, was there anything that happened to cause the pajama top to be torn?
A  Unless it was -- unless I -- as I was taking it off my hands were ripping it. I don't know that. It's conceivable.
Q  Do you have any recollection of it ripping while you were taking it off your hands?
A  No, sir.
Q  Yeah --
A  I mean I wasn't worried about my pajama top ripping at the time.
Q  Now, when you found yourself in the position at the end of the hall there, your teeth were chattering, your arms were under you, the pajama tops were around the ends of your arms, and your hands, when you got up, did you look at the pajama tops?
A  No, sir.
Q  Well, between the time that you got up and the time that you removed the pajama tops, in the bedroom, did you observe any blood on them?
A  No, I don't even remember. I just remember trying to pull them off my hands.
Q  Don't remember seeing any blood on them at all?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Your blood -- well, you had an injury that caused a certain amount of bleeding, I take it?
A  Right.
Q  You didn't observe any blood on your pajama tops?
A  No, I didn't.
Q  When they were under your body, you said your arms were under your body, were they in a position where they would have absorbed some blood from your injuries?
A  Possibly.
Q  Well, can you say yes or not? Do you recall the position your arms were in and where the pajama tops were?
A  Seems to me they should have had.
Q  They should have had some blood?
A  They should have had some blood.
Q  But you didn't observe them?
A  No, I didn't.
Q  Now, when you observed Colette lying in the floor, what was the position of her arms?
A  Seemed like her left arm was down next to her body, or a little bit away, and the right arm was sort of -- seemed like it was crooked. It was up against the green chair.
Q  Unh-hunh, now, did you change the position of her arms?
A  Right, in moving her.
Q  Now, after you changed the position of her arms, what position were her arms in?
A  I think her left arm was straight out from her body; and the right arm would have been right down alongside her body.
Q  Well, could her left arm have been not only out, but sort of raised, behind her, somewhat?
A  Ah --
Q  Lying on the floor?
A  It's possible. I thought that I just kind of moved it up; up to my right as I was kneeling down next to her. It may have been up a little bit higher than horizontal.
Q  That was so it wouldn't interfere with the emergency treatment you were giving her?
A  Right.
Q  She was laying in a prone position, or her feet were straight out?
A  No, she was supine.
Q  Supine position?
A  Prone is face down.
Q  Supine is back down, face up?
A  Right.
Q  Do you recall the legs of her pajamas --
A  Yeah.
Q  -- whether they were down to her ankles or whether the legs were sort of pushed up over her calf?
A  I don't remember. I remember -- I remember I could see her feet, but I don't remember how high it was up on her legs.
Q  Well, you had -- you could see her feet in any event. I mean just wondering if they were sort of pushed up so you could see the calf of her leg?
A  I think I could. I think I could. That's right.
Q  What are the -- you did give mouth to mouth resuscitation to Colette and to each of the children?
A  Yeah.
Q  You're a trained doctor and you're experienced in emergency room functions; and can you tell us what the indications are that caused you to give her mouth to mouth resuscitation?
A  Well, she looked -- you know -- she looked like she was dead. She wasn't breathing, couldn't feel a pulse. That's what you do with them.
Q  Well, that's the first thing you do. You wouldn't rush for something to start heart action in the way of hypodermic injection or something of that sort?
A  No, you wouldn't do that. The first problem is airway problem. Airway, circulation, breathing, A, B, C.
Q  Now, you said that she was very bloody. She was covered with the blood?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  And there was blood all over the place.
    Now, were her wounds flowing -- would you say they were oozing, or were --
A  It seems to me -- I didn't see any blood running. She was wet. The blood was wet on her chest, but -- you know -- I didn't see any.
Q  So it was fresh blood? It wasn't flowing or oozing or seeping out of her at that time?
A  Right, right. I didn't see any arterial bleeding, right.
Q  I may have touched upon this, I don't really want to repeat too much, but I just don't -- I just don't remember to the extent I touched on it, but, of course, Colette was on the floor; each of the children was in bed; and I'm going to ask you again the position of the bed covers over the bodies of Kimberly and Kris?
A  I -- I saw both girls -- you know -- but I don't know if I pulled down the covers or if the covers were down when I initally got there.
    Ah, but I -- you know -- I can remember taking pulses, and I can remember sort of like seeing Kim and seeing Kris.
    So, you know, I don't -- I don't really have a recollection of them being covered. So I either pulled the covers down, or -- you know -- I saw them and they were uncovered.
Q  Now, getting back to Kris, when you observed her, in bed, and lying there as indicated in the diagram, did you notice the -- her baby bottle, her little bottle of chocolate milk?
A  No, I don't remember it.
Q  Well, you remember that you gave it to her when you put her in bed?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  About two o'clock?
A  Right.
Q  And when you went in the room, and saw her, did you see it? Was it on the bed? Was it next to her?
A  I didn't notice it, sir. I wasn't looking for a baby bottle.
Q  Right. In moving about the house, and I'm -- we have done the first series of movements. We haven't done the second.
    Do you recall stepping in any pool of blood or on anything that was covered with blood?
A  Not specifically, no. I'm sure it could have happened.
Q  Do you recall seeing masses of blood anywhere in any of these rooms?
A  Yes.
Q  Well, they were -- there was a mass of blood I assume around Colette on the floor?
A  Right.
Q  Now, was there a mass of blood either on the floor of Kimberly's room or Kris's room?
A  There's a lot of blood in Kris's room.
Q  And that would be blood on the floor, sort of a puddle of blood?
A  The place looked very bloody to me, Mr. Woerheide. I don't really remember thinking to myself, ah-ha, there's a big pool of blood on the floor.
    There seemed to be a lot of blood, you know.
Q  Yeah, okay.
    I wonder if you would -- I think we'd better number these various stopping points because some of these lines follow the same course. Would you mind putting one where you start at the bottom of the end of the hall there, and two by Colette's body which was the first stop; and three by Kim's body which was the third stop; four by Kris's body which is the fourth stop?

(Witness writes numbers on floor plan.)

Q  Then you stopped in the hall, so that would be five; and stopped in the bathroom so that would be six; and you went back to Colette and that would be seven.
A  Right.
Q  And now you went to the telephone; that would be eight. And you paused before you went out to the rear door, that would be nine. The rear door would be ten.

(Witness writes numbers on floor plan.)

Q  Now, let's take up the sequence from there, Dr. MacDonald, if you please.
A  I went back to Kimberly's room.
Q  All right, will you indicate that on that green line now?

(Witness writes on floor plan.)

Q  And as I recall your testimony, you're not sure whether it was the first or second time you gave her artificial resuscitation?
A  Right.
Q  It was on one of these occasions?
A  Right.
Q  And do you recall how long you stayed there?
A  No, it seemed very brief.
Q  Once again you checked her pulse at least?
A  Right.
Q  And you may have given her artificial resuscitation?
A  Right.
Q  I take it you didn't move her?
A  Only to the extent that possibly, if I did the mouth to mouth at this time, possibly lifting her up from behind the neck a little bit.
Q  Unh-hunh, now, from there you went once again to Kris's bedside?
A  Right.
Q  Once again you examined her?
A  Right.
Q  From there where did you go?
A  Back out in the hallway.
Q  All right, sir, --

(Witness draws on floor plan.)

A  There.
Q  Did you stay there at all?
A  It seemed like for a very brief minute trying to figure out what to do.
Q  Yeah.
A  I believe this is when I was thinking of -- should I go to the Kalins who are our neighbors or -- on this side, or should I re-try the phone call?, so I re-tried the phone call.
Q  Unh-hunh, and having made that decision you went down the hall again?
A  Right.
Q  And cut across the dining room area --
A  Yeah.
Q  -- into the kitchen, is that correct?
A  Right.
Q  And I take it the phone is in the kitchen right on the edge of the entrance?
A  Right.
Q  To the right?
A  Right.
Q  Now, as you passed through the living room area, what if anything did you observe? Did you make any observations with reference to -- let's say -- the overturned coffee table or any disorder or disarray in that room?
A  None whatsoever. I don't remember seeing anything at all, noticing anything.
Q  You didn't make any attempt to straighten anything up or put any order in anything?
A  Sir, I don't know. I don't remember that, no.
Q  Well, in the kitchen, besides making the telephone call, did you do anything?
A  I'm not sure. I have a little tiny -- recollections of -- when I was telling you about washing my hands over here, it seems to me I was washing my hands on more than one occasion. So in reconstruction, when I was laying in the hospital trying to think of what was going on, I may have washed my hands here at this sink.
    But, I thought I washed my hands twice, that I was rinsing myself off twice.
    I don't know that. So it's conceivable that I washed my hands here, either before or after the phone call. I would think after.
Q  All right, well, since you're not sure of it, let's make a -- make a fourteen there and a dotted line instead of a solid line.
A  You mean over to the sink?
Q  Over to the sink.

(Witness draws on floor plan.)

Q  And if you did wash your hands there, that would be number fifteen, right?
A  Right.
Q  Do you remember getting anything out or putting anything away around the sink there at that time?
A  No.
Q  You wouldn't have had any occasion to reach under the sink or reach into a drawer or reach into a cupboard or closet or anything of that sort?
A  Not that I recollect, no.
Q  Now, do you have a recollection of your movements from point fifteen to the place where they found you?
A  The actual movement or the --
Q  Yes.
A  I really don't remember going back down the hallway. It's not clear in my mind. I don't think of myself as walking down the hallway.
Q  Yes, all right, well, then, do you -- let's let you use your green marker and indicate approximately where you were at the time the MPs came in and you became aware of their presence.
A  Ah --
Q  I take it it's right where two and seven are --
A  Right.
Q  -- is that right?
A  Right, right here.
Q  All right.
Q  You want a sixteen on that?
Q  Yes, just put a sixteen down underneath that.

(Witness writes on floor plan.)

Q  That's where you were?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  Now, you say your body was more or less parallel to that of Colette, probably a slight angle, and your head was lying on her shoulder or side?
A  Right.
Q  That would be her left shoulder or left side?
A  Right.
Q  All right, and the next thing you recall there was an MP struggling with you and I take it that he would be right -- approximately where you marked the number sixteen?
A  Right.
Q  And he was pushing you down and you were struggling to get up?
A  That's right.
Q  He was breathing into your mouth?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  And you were reacting?
A  Right.
Q  Now, were the MPs -- well, I won't say the MPs -- medics, I guess, loaded you on the stretcher, they carried you once again down the hallway and out the front door, is that correct?
A  They didn't carry me. They wheeled me.
Q  The stretcher had wheels on it?
A  Right.
Q  And --
A  (Interposing) This -- you know -- this is what they testified to. I didn't know that.
Q  There was an interlude at -- as you were passing the door of Kris's bedroom when you got off the stretcher and at least a part of your body was in the room against the --
A  You mean Kimberly's room.
Q  -- Kimberly's room, rather, which is just to the right of the door against the wall?
A  Right, one of the MPs testified that Specialist Mica pulled me five or six feet into this doorway.
    I'm not aware of that. I don't really remember whether he moved me or not, but one of the MPs, Seiver or Duffy or someone, said that Mica and whoever was helping him had pulled me from "sixteen" over into here, and then when they loaded me onto the wheel stretcher, it was right here, and when I struggled off the stretcher, I fell here against Kimberly's stereo.
Q  You do remember that?
A  I remember getting off the stretcher. I remember falling onto the floor and someone was jerking me back on the stretcher.
Q  Unh-hunh, now, while you were there on the floor, and they were attempting to give you first aid treatment, was there any discussion by you with them; that is the MPs or the medics, about your possibly being in shock?
A  I don't -- I don't distinctly remember that. There may have been. There was a lot of -- you know -- a lot of voices yelling things; many people yelling things at me at once and questions, and, ah --
Q  But did you -- did you suggest that they get -- that they elevate your feet?
A  Did I suggest that?
Q  Yeah.
A  Not that I remember.
Q  Well, were you concerned about the fact that you were going into shock? Do you recall saying anything to the effect?
A  No, I don't recollect that. It may have occurred -- you know -- I really don't recollect that though.
Q  Well, do you recall that a pillow was taken from the bed of yourself and Colette and placed under your feet?
A  Someone did do that. That's right.
Q  Do you recall who that was?
A  There were a lot of people in that room, sir. No. Someone did do that.
Q  Was this pillow also placed on the stretcher to elevate your feet?
A  I don't remember that.
Q  Well, do you remember that when you were taken off the stretcher at the hospital, that pillow was still there?
A  I really don't remember that at all. That's weird. I never remember that pillow.
Q  Well, we do have a pillow that was reportedly placed under your feet that came to the hospital, and unlike the pajama bottoms, it was not thrown away.
    And there are marks of blood on the pillow. I assume that was to be normally expected; you were walking around the house; there was blood all over the place. It was to be expected that you would get blood on your feet when you were walking around the house, and do you have any comment to make on that?
A  No, except I think they were washing my feet at the hospital. Someone was washing my feet at the hospital, saying, your feet have blood on them, or something like that.
Q  Do you remember that there was blood on your pajama bottoms?
A  Only from what Specialist Newman testified to.
Q  Well, do you have any specific recollection of it yourself?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Well, when you looked in that mirror in the bathroom, I don't know how -- what the dimensions of the mirror are, and I don't know how high it's located on the wall, but did you see -- let's say -- below the crotch in the mirror?
A  I doubt it. I mean, I don't --
Q  You could see --
A  -- recollect at that time.
Q  -- your head, chest --
A  Right.
Q  -- navel, --
A  Right.
Q  -- maybe down in the pubic area, but that would be as far as it would go?
A  Right, right.
Q  Do you remember seeing any blood on your pajamas when you were looking in the mirror? At that time you were wearing only your pajama bottoms?
A  Right, no, I don't recall that at all.
Q  So far as the pajama tops were concerned there was no struggle in the bedroom; you just rid yourself of them; you discarded them; then you reached out when you were beside Colette's body; you retrieved them; you placed them over Colette's body to keep her warm?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  And you obtained something from the -- across her body, on the chair there, and covered her with that?
A  (Nods affirmatively) That stretcher, apparently according to testimony went down the hallway, and out the front door. It didn't go back out the back door.
Q  Yeah, that's your recollection, too, isn't it?
A  Yeah, I think so. I remember we were going down the front steps, and I was sliding off the stretcher again, and someone was holding me on.
Q  Okay, let me ask you this, then: as you were going out through the living room on the stretcher, did you make any observations as to the disarray in the living room; that is the coffee table being overturned; various things lying on the floor?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did you make any observation concerning -- well, for example -- where the afghan was that you covered yourself with?
A  No, sir.
Q  Or anything of that sort?
A  No.
Q  If I were to show you -- I know you've seen the picture in the past, but if I were to show you a photograph of that area as it appeared when it was being photographed, would that refresh your recollection as to the fact that you saw something like that on your way out?
A  I don't think so. Quite honestly, I don't -- I didn't take any notice of the living room at all.
Q  You remember where Colette set down her purse when she came in the house that night?
A  No.
Q  Was it a custom to set it down somewhere in the living room or --
A  Oh, upon -- I believe this is a desk here. If this is a desk, it would go there a lot. Sometimes she'd put it on the dining table, or sideboard; or usually actually her purse was in here on the bureau.

(Witness indicates on floor plan.)

Q  Yes, how about your wallet or your billfold; where did you leave it that night, do you recall?
A  No, it usually was left on here, on my bureau -- you know -- with my keys, change and stuff like that.
Q  Well, you don't recall on this occasion where you left it?
A  No, sir.
Q  One other question, was Colette -- did she have any compunctions as to neatness -- was she a very strict housekeeper? Was she sort of relaxed and casual?
A  She was pretty casual. She wasn't nearly as compulsive as I was. When I come home, I hang my clothes up. She comes home, and throws them on the chair, and maybe -- you know -- she'll put them in the closet, but the house was -- you know -- always presentable and clean, but she wasn't like on her hands and knees scrubbing day and night by any means.
Q  Dr. MacDonald, do you recall tracing your movements as set forth on this diagram, whether at any time because of pain or difficulty in breathing, that instead of walking, you got down to the floor and proceeded on your hands and knees?
A  No, I don't think I ever proceeded on my hands and knees. I think the reference you're having is some comments I made that I was on my hands and knees or that was my recollection, and I believe that was next to Colette.
    I really don't know -- you know -- which specific time.
Q  Well, to give her any treatment at all you had to be on your hands and knees?
A  Right, but I mean I was at one point on my hands and knees, and I was thinking that I was short of breath. That's -- you know -- that's what I was thinking.
Q  Well, while you were moving around, did you experience any difficulty in breathing or any sharp pain? I understand when you have a pneumothorax, there is pain involved.
A  Right, I remember I had chest pain. I also had a lot of head pain, but I don't distinctly remember getting down on my hands and knees although that's been alleged in the past.
Q  Now, when you arrived at the hospital, did you at some time after you arrived there, personally examine yourself and notice the various injuries that you had on your body at that time?
A  Unh-hunh, sure.
Q  Now, the other day some photographs were taken. Were -- did they accurately depict and represent the location of these various injuries?
A  The location, right, a lot of them aren't visible anymore.
Q  Would -- you -- all right, now, would you describe to the grand jury just what these injuries were that you observed; where they were located, the type of injury, whether it was a superficial skin abrasion or penetrating wound?
A  Sure.
Q  And give us some sort of indication of where there was a penetrating wound, the depth of the penetration, and anything you care to say about it.
A  Sure, let me just preface that by saying that I have never really said this before, because obviously I was the accused and it sounds ridiculous for you to testify about your own medical wounds, but if I may say that if the exam I had by Jacobson were done anywhere other than in the Army, it wouldn't be any good.
    It was a totally inadequate medical record of an examination, from any physician's viewpoint.
    It's the first time I've ever said that, but it's true. And it's -- you know -- one of the two or three major reasons this case is still going on and I'm here; because of the medical record.
    I was never re-examined after the emergency room. No one ever came in and looked at me and examined me.
    You know, you have a chest tube, and someone normally comes in and listens to the lungs, once in a while. They didn't do that. That is inadequate medical care.
    And I don't care what anyone thinks anymore. That's shitty. If I treated my patients that way, I would expect my associates to come in on me in groups.
    So, when I tell you the wounds I had, a lot of them, essentially the minor ones or the more superficial ones aren't listed in the medical report.
    But that medical report is not a routine medical report by any means. There is no doctor that would be proud of that medical report.
    In any case, now that I have expounded, the wounds that I had -- I had a fairly large -- you know -- contusion and abrasion type wound on my left forehead. I had a wound in the right hairline on this side (indicating) that I honestly didn't notice until two or three days later -- you know -- three or four days later I felt it, and when I was up and around in my hospital room, you could see it in the mirror. It was just kind of merging with the hairline, but it was kind of a large bump --
Q  (Interposing) In other words, two or three days later there was some discoloration that made it conspicuous?
A  Right.
Q  Up until that time it wasn't noticable?
A  Yeah, right, all I knew up until that I was having headaches -- you know -- I was getting a lot of Demerol and stuff, but despite the Demerol, I -- you know -- kept remarking, gee, I've got this throbbing headache type thing.
    As a matter of fact at one time the nurse gave me Demerol and she said, that should take care of it.
    And I said, no, give me some aspirin or something like that, because it wasn't -- it wasn't the terrific pain that you need Demerol for, but it was an aching headache, if you follow what I mean, like a toothache.
    So in the bathroom, I saw this thing, you know, that's all.
    And there were a couple -- what I thought were a couple, and again it was really just a field, really, back here, behind and over the left ear area, there were a couple of lumps in my head.
    Quite honestly, you know -- it wasn't that impressive. It wasn't that impressive or feel that impressive to me.
    But I could also bring in a hundred neurosurgeons in a row, and every one of them would say that there was no relationship to the external head wound to what actually happened.
    In other words, there's no relationship between three things: the external head wound, the level of consciousness, and severity of injury to the brain.
    I mean you could never find anyone except the coroner that they brought in to testify to that. It just isn't -- it's crazy. I see people die in my emergency room every day, old winos with one little lump on their head. You know, it just isn't legitimate medical practice.
    Anyway, on my left arm, I had what I would describe as a knife wound, about an inch cut in the left biceps, and there were about three, what I would say were puncture wounds.
Q  Now, the knife wound, was that a slicing wound or a penetrating wound?
A  That was a penetrating wound.
Q  How deep was the penetration?
A  I don't know, but it was pouting. The fatty tissue on it was pouting.
Q  How deep is the fatty tissue?
A  That's just below the skin. That's just --
Q  Yeah, when you say it was pouting, what does it have to do with respect to the depth of the wound?
A  Well, it's to mean you're cut at least a quarter of an inch. But that's to say get to the fat.
Q  I see.
A  You know, you don't usually probe those wounds. There's no need to probe them as long as they have a pulse.
Q  Did it require stitches?
A  No, he -- Dr. Jacobson just bandaged it up.
Q  And you have a little scar there, now, I take it --
A  Right.
Q  -- indicating that line?
A  Right, and there were a couple of puncture wounds in that biceps in the same area, and over the next couple of days the whole area turned black and blue. And it was sore just indicating -- you know -- that there was a large contusion type wound. But that's not indicated anywhere. So it all becomes very confusing.
    And the CID says, how was he hurt? And the medic says, he was all right. And then six weeks later they start questioning the doctors.
    I had -- there was a scratch somewhere on my right shoulder. I remember it as being my right shoulder. Other people have said it was the right arm, but I really think it was the right shoulder. Nothing, really.
Q  Well, that would be a fingernail-type scratch, I take it?
A  Actually that isn't how I remembered it. It was just a scratch, a linear scratch. It was like a linear scratch, you know, like a couple of inches in length.
Q  Well, now, yeah, but --
A  Like you scratch yourself on wood, a nail, glass, or -- you know -- superficial knife scratch that --
Q  Yeah.
A  -- doesn't -- nothing at all.
Q  Well, let me ask you this, could you have picked up a scratch like that playing basketball as you did? That is a contact sport.
    I assume you couldn't get a knife wound or ice pick type wound, but could you have picked it up playing basketball like this?
A  I'm sure I could have done that, I'm sure. You can get one, a scratch like that, I'm sure. I don't remember getting one, but you could get one, sure.
Q  Yeah, but as you recall when you were playing basketball, that there was contact of that type?
A  We were playing contact, sure, but no scratches.
Q  All right, okay.
A  On my chest, on the right chest, there was a -- what I would describe as a knife wound, about an inch, three quarters of an inch to an inch, just a little bit medial towards the midline of the body, and about two inches below my right nipple, which ends up being the center intercostal space, between the seventh and eighth ribs.
Q  Is that the wound when your immediate thought was, this guy carries a hell of a punch?
A  Right.
Q  And that is the wound that caused the pneumothorax condition?
A  I would presume so, yes.
Q  Well, was there any other wound that you had that might cause the pneumothorax condition?
A  Not on the right chest. There were -- there were other puncture wounds on the upper left chest, but --
Q  But the pneumothorax was on the right side?
A  Right.
Q  And would it be safe to conclude -- would you as a doctor conclude that that wound was the cause of the --
A  Oh, sure.
Q  -- pneumothorax?
A  Sure.
Q  All right.
A  There were -- there was a couple of kind of -- I don't know -- three or four puncture wounds -- you know -- I would say were ice pick wounds. But they were just circular puncture wounds.
Q  Well, is there any way of making any sort of conclusions as to how deep they were?
A  No.
Q  Was there any indication of internal bleeding as a result of these wounds?
A  No. On my abdomen, there was -- what has been variously described as a -- well, I'll give you my description. There was a laceration, kind of a superficial type that was about -- it was really a total of three inches, but it wasn't thee inches in one straight line.
    It looked like an upside-down "Y," is what it looked like. The "Y" was like this, and then the wound extended up a little bit.
Q  How do you -- how do you distinguish between a laceration and a scratch?
A  Ah --
Q  Or --
A  A scratch doesn't go through the skin, but a laceration is through the skin into the subcutaneous tissue.
Q  Does that get into the fatty subcutaneous tissue?
A  Yeah, yeah, as they were dressing it, I could see the fat at least.
Q  And what was the treatment they gave you for that?
A  They just dressed it, strapped it together and dressed it.
Q  There were no stitches?
A  No.
Q  You still have evidence of that wound on your body?
A  Right.
Q  Is that a scar?
A  Right.
Q  And is it a broad scar or a narrow scar?
A  It's kind of two scars running together. It's you know, relatively narrow, fairly narrow.
Q  That would be indicated on the photographs that were taken the other day?
A  Yes, presuming the film comes out.
Q  You seem not to have too much confidence in the photographer?
A  If I told you what happened up there, you wouldn't believe me.
Q  Up where?
A  In the FBI office taking the photographs and the hair samples.
Q  Well, I think that's another case. That'll come up perhaps next year, not this year.
A  Okay.
Q  All right, any other wounds?
A  Yeah, there was a same type of puncture wounds that was on my chest, there was a whole series of them. There was a couple right around the stab wound -- you know -- in the laceration, and they were -- I would say about eight on the other -- you know -- on this side of my right -- right side of my belly button, roughly across from where the laceration was.
    They did not show up as scars. They were circular, nonbleeding, and I really only noticed them a couple of days later, because there was little scabs on each one.
    And -- you know -- in reconstructing it, you know, you know, remembered it.
    Really, it wasn't -- I was just laying in the hospital. I didn't really care.
    Oh, there was a -- one of my two hands had -- I don't know which hand, I think my left hand had little -- almost like paper cuts in the web space between the forefinger and the thumb.
    I don't remember if it was my left or right hand.
Q  What do you mean by paper cut?
A  Well, like little nicks, little lacerations that just raises the skin, like when you run your finger over a piece of paper and you get a finger cut at the end of your finger. That's what they were like, you know --
Q  That is a wound that normally wouldn't -- a little body fluid might flow out, but it wouldn't be a bloody wound?
A  Right, exactly, right.
Q  Anything else?
A  Not that I can remember.
Q  Do you recall how many wounds there were altogether? I mean, can you break them down according to type; that is ice pick type, or knife type, scratch type?
A  Okay, there was one scratch. There were -- I would say -- I would say four only because I have a -- you know -- a kind of a recollection there were two separate lumps back here; four contusions to the head. There was a much larger contusion to my left shoulder in addition to -- there were three stab wounds. Actually the one on the abdomen, I always remember it as a "Y," but the scar even now is two scars running together, just running down together, so that the stab wound in the area of the abdomen, the stab wound in the left chest, and the stab wound in the left biceps, and then as far as puncture wounds, there were roughly three, six, nine and eight, about seventeen.
Q  When you were in the hospital and this -- recovering from these things --
A  It's interesting, sir -- excuse me for interrupting, sir, it's interesting to me that my lawyers told me that on reading the autopsy reports, most of the puncture wounds also didn't penetrate, which is just a little interesting sideline, like, which Mr. Segal just told me about the other day, when we were discussing, which I was unaware of.
    Go ahead, I'm sorry.
Q  Well, did you consider asking somebody to take a photograph of you so you'd have a record of these injuries?
A  For what purpose, sir?
Q  Well, that's not my question. Did you consider it?
A  No, sir.
Q  And I take it no one suggested it to you? That is no investigator, doctor, or members of your family?
A  No, sir, there were a lot of people who saw them other than me. The problem is Jacobson didn't see them. And he's the one who wrote the medical record.
Q  All right, tell me who the people who those people would be. I take it your mother would be one?
A  Right.
Q  The Kassabs would be others?
A  Right.
Q  Harrison?
A  Right.
Q  Who else?
A  Williams, Captain Williams, Drs. McGann and Manson from Boston. I presume Dudley Warner. I don't know -- it was like how many of each specifically? Like when they came in the room, I didn't take down the sheet and take off dressings on certain wounds and stuff like that.
    But I'm sure anyone who was in the room would remember more than the doctor who was in the emergency room who then never examined me again.
    As I recall it, Dr. Gemma, the surgeon who put in the chest tube misplaced the chest wound about three inches when he instructed the CID, when he was questioned by the CID.
    And then he told that to Dr. Fisher in Baltimore, the coroner, who comes down and testifies without examining me.
Q  You mean -- you mean he misplaced it, in his recollection he thought it was several inches from the post where it actually was?
A  Right.
Q  How did he misplace it, to the side?
A  Right, according to Dr. Fisher. Dr. Gemma never told us that. Dr. Gemma told us he gave him an accurate representation of where the wounds were. But when Dr. Fisher testified, without having explained me, he stated under oath that he was misled by the investigators and by the doctors, and that's why he concluded that I was guilty.
Q  Did he say -- did he testify that he concluded that you were guilty?
A  No, that was the question put to him by the prosecutor, if you can believe that, a prosecutor calls in a doctor who has never examined me and says to him, have you been instructed about the case. And he said, yes, I have been instructed about the case. Did you visit the crime scene? Yes, I visited the crime scene.
    Are you aware of the wounds that Captain MacDonald had or -- you know -- was purported to have? And he said, yes I am.
    And Captain Somers then asked him -- and after all this, what is your conclusion as to who committed the crime?
    So my lawyers, all four of them, went right through the roof, and Colonel Rock was sitting there with his mouth hanging open, and looking at Captain Somers. And Mr. Segal was objecting. And he said, that's the most absurd question I ever heard of, or things along that line.
    And Colonel Rock said that was an improper question, that he couldn't answer the question. I mean, how could --
Q  Well, he was not called for the purpose of testifying as to whether or not you were guilty or innocent.
A  Yes, sir, he was, sir. Absolutely.
Q  Was he?
A  That's the reason he was there. They put it under the guise of him -- they put it under the guise of him saying that I could have self-inflicted all my wounds, see --
Q  I see.
A  -- but what he was really called down was to make a definitive statement as to who committed the crime.
Q  Now --
A  And he stated under oath he had been misled by the investigators as to my wounds.
Q  Now, would you tell the jury, please, the wound which was apparently the most critical; it was the seventh --
A  The seventh intercostal space.
Q  Intercostal space. Are there any principal or major arteries in that area?
A  Major arteries? Yeah. There's an intercostal artery under each rib that's a major artery that you can bleed to death from.
Q  That is the space under the rib?
A  Yeah, the space between the ribs is about that wide, (indicating) and running underneath it -- about an inch wide, half an inch actually, depending on the curvature of the next rib.
    But running around each rib from around the back to around the front is a larger artery along with the nerve.
Q  All right, now, when you penetrate into that area, let's say, a direct penetration, through what tissues does the instrument go and at what point in depth do you reach those tissues?
A  Well, the skin would be the first thing. Then you'd pass through -- oh, depending on the person, but in my case it would be like, oh, a quarter to half inch of subcutaneous tissue, a little less than that; a quarter of an inch of subcutaneous tissue.
    Then there are muscles, between each rib, that are called intercostal muscles. There are two layers of those. They're probably another three eighths of an inch thick. And assuming you don't hit a rib, you then hit the lining or the outside lining of the, of the pleural cavity which is a very thin membrane; less than paper thin, you know. And then you hit the lung. That is the lung itself.
Q  Then is there another lining --
A  Yeah.
Q  The inside lining that is -- surrounds the lung?
A  Yeah, but that's only a potential space. That's not a real space. That's like saying there's a space between my hands. There is if I move them apart, but the lung is up against that membrane.
Q  Is there a fluid between the two linings, to lubricate the --
A  Ah, nothing you can measure, but yes, there is some.
Q  Then you have the lung?
A  Right.
Q  And if you penetrate into and through the lung, what do you strike?
A  Well, it depends -- the lung itself is nothing but a mass of blood vessels. So it depends on what -- I believe your initial question was bleeding or arteries. The lung is nothing but series of blood vessels.
Q  I know, but I -- initially when you strike the diaphragm and eventually will you strike the liver?
A  Yeah, it's -- it's actually it's very likely in that area. It --
Q  Well, how deep do you have to go to get to that far to the point where you can strike the liver?
A  Well, actually it depends on really, I guess, on the person. I don't know.
Q  All right, well, I take it as a medical student you performed autopsies. You have examined --
A  Right. We are talking about -- it's hard to describe. You have to look at the side of a chest from the side.
    Okay, the diaphragm goes up in an arch. Okay, and the liver is pushing the diaphragm up in the arch.
    Now, that diaphragm can be right against the chest wall at that point. You know -- that's low. That's really over the liver -- when you percuss the chest you can hear the liver like at the sixth. So, you're already over the liver. It's just a matter of where --
Q  But the lung --
A  -- it arches.
Q  But the lung comes down as far as the seventh, doesn't it?
A  In some people. Usually it does. It's a little -- a little tongue. Now that part of the lung slides down when you take a breath.
Q  And when there's an incision made deep enough to let air into the chest cavity, air does enter and then you have this pneumothorax condition, is that correct?
A  Right.
Q  And the fact that there's air in the space outside the lung within the chest cavity, interferes with the normal breathing process, is that correct?
A  Right, that's correct.
Q  And that's what's called a pneumothorax?
A  Right.
Q  Now, does the air in the chest tend to rise towards the upper part of the chest?
A  Ah --
Q  As a result of breathing action?
A  Not really, no. It doesn't. No, the lung normally collapses usually uniformly. If you take an x-ray, the lung is collapsed -- you know -- in a -- all through the chest.
Q  Were you conscious -- conscious, Doctor, when they put these tubes in your body?
A  In my chest.
Q  Yeah, in your chest?
A  Yeah.
Q  They inserted two tubes; one after the other?
A  Right.
Q  I take it they gave you local anesthetic?
A  Right.
Q  And having given you a local anesthetic, they inserted an instrument which carried a tube with it and that tube --
A  Right.
Q  -- was inserted to relieve --
A  Right.
Q  -- the air -- to evacuate the air that had collected in your chest?
A  Right.
Q  And they first put in one and later put in another one?
A  Right.
Q  And when did that -- when was that pneumothorax condition relieved? How long after you were in the hospital?
A  I really don't remember. The -- the first chest tube was put in -- I don't know -- somewhat -- you know -- somewhat shortly after I got there. I don't remember when the second one was put in. I guess it was later that day. We're talking about hours.
Q  The first one was done by Dr. Jacobson, perhaps in association with other doctors?
A  Yes, I think so.
Q  Do you know who did the second one?
A  I think Dr. Gemma.
Q  And to insert these tubes, they had to in effect make the same type of an incision as the wound itself --
A  That's right.
Q  -- that you suffered from, did they not?
A  That's right.
Q  And perhaps the same depth?
A  Right, except in a different area, which they neglected to mention to Dr. Fisher.
Q  Well, you were under more or less a local anesthetic. Do you know how deeply they penetrated to insert the tube?
A  No, sir, it's a very painful process.
Q  Even though you're under local anesthetic?
A  Right.
Q  I take it the local anesthetic controls the pain in the upper part, but not the lower part, and when they get in the lower part, you can feel the actual pain?
A  No, the local anesthetic controls the pain in the skin and subcutaneous tissues, but when you hit the pleura, the lining of the lungs is what you're talking about, that's what's the most painful.
Q  And that's when they know they've hit the pleura, because that's when you react to the pain?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  You mentioned that you were being given Demerol and I don't know what effect that has on a person, you refer to it as a pain killer for a severe pain. Does it have any psychic effect?
A  Sure.
Q  Would you tell us about that?
A  Well, it really can do anything. It's a -- you get groggy. Some people get incoherent. You know -- a lot of addicts use it to get high on. It's not really a high. It's a low. It's a downer drug. But -- I know you're probably getting confused.
Q  Yes.
A  Some people think -- some people feel good on it. And, you know, and I always -- and you then wonder, well, what do they do in their spare time.
    But most people don't -- what Demerol does, really, it doesn't take away the pain, but it tells your brain that you don't care about the pain.
    That's what it really does, pharmacologically.
    You still have the pain except your brain is telling you you really don't care about the pain.
Q  Well, had you had Demerol before?
A  Had I ever had Demerol before?
Q  Yeah.
A  Oh, yeah, I had it when I had a back injury in high school in football. I think. I guess. That's just by assumption.
Q  Well, did anyone that came to see you that first day, and I assume there were a number of people that came in that day, remark to you that you seemed to be a little bit confused?
A  Oh, a lot of people.
Q  Did they have any trouble engaging you in conversation or discussion?
A  Sure.
Q  Would you tell us specifically who?
A  I mean I just went -- I really wasn't making any sense to anyone.
    I was -- it seemed to me that -- no, I honestly can't say that someone said to me, gee, you sound confused.
    Is that what you're asking for?
Q  Yeah.
A  I don't remember hearing those specific words from anyone.
Q  Well, someone has told me about a conversation you had -- I think shortly after you arrived at the hospital with one of the doctors, and you had both had the experience of treating a young man who apparently was a drug abuser, and who apparently committed suicide by going out of a window.
A  Oh, yeah, I -- I didn't treat him, but I had heard about it.
Q  It was on an occasion when you had been associated with this doctor before. Remember that?
A  No, no, I mean I remember the incident, a guy who walked out of the ninth story window.
Q  Well, at a time when you were on duty in the hospital and this other doctor was on duty?
A  No, I wasn't on duty in the hospital. I heard about that. I heard about that.
Q  Oh.
A  I mean it was a relatively novel thing, even for Fort Bragg.
Q  Well, I may be confused. I just -- there was an account of a conversation that you had, not too long after you arrived, and when you went to -- met this doctor, and you were identifying yourself to him, and he was identifying himself to you.
    And the subject came up of this young man who was a drug abuser, and somehow or other he died, and I thought it was going out the window of a hospital.
A  That occurred at Womack Army Hospital, but I had nothing to do with that. I didn't even know much about it.
    I knew a guy allegedly had been on a bad trip, and he was brought up to the ninth floor, and he walked out the window.
Q  You didn't remember discussing that the morning of February 17 in the hospital with one of the first doctors that you came in contact with?
A  No, I don't. I don't believe I did.

FOREMAN:  Mr. Woerheide, let's take about a ten-minute recess.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  All right, sir.




MR. WOERHEIDE:  Dr. MacDonald, we're not going to ask you to resume the witness stand.
    As you can see, Dr. MacDonald, we brought here at this time the sofa, coffee table, the chair, and we have the afghan.
    We have certain things that were around the house on this evening, and so that with it on the coffee table, including the evening paper, you will notice.
    And we don't have a flower pot. We have plastic cup.
    Let me ask you first, can you identify the sofa?
A  Yes, I can.
Q  Can you identify the afghan?
A  Yes, that's the afghan.
Q  Can you identify the coffee table?
A  Yep.
Q  Can you identify the chair?
A  Right.
Q  Now, assuming that this was the east wall of the bedroom, and -- I mean the east wall of the living room, the wall adjacent to Kim's bedroom, and assuming this is the entrance to the hall, where this gentleman is standing, would this be the approximate location of the furnishings in your house on that evening?
A  You mean as they are right exactly here?
Q  No, I mean just -- I'm just asking you first if it's approximate, and if it's not, if you -- if anything should be changed, I want you to change it.
    If the sofa, if that's too close or too far away from the door, I want you to change it.
A  My recollection would be that it would be closer, kind of like that. (Moving sofa.)
Q  Well, so that's about it? All right, now, how about the coffee table? Should we move that?
A  Well, it would be sort of like this, -- (Moving coffee table.)
Q  And how about the chair, where would that be?
A  That would be right here where you can't put it.
Q  Well, we'll put it as close as you can. Would be there and a little further over back against the wall?
A  Yeah, a little bit.
Q  What angle would it be?
A  It would -- it would normally be like that.
Q  At an angle?
A  Angle it a little bit. More like this.
Q  It would be back and more generally facing the television set, is that it?
A  Correct.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, I don't suppose there's any way we can move that thing, is there?
    Well --

MR. STROUD:  Why don't we put the couch up and down this way, and the coffee table --

JUROR:  This chair can be moved there.

MR. STROUD:  And put the chair back over here or what do you think?

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, what -- we have a problem of logistics here, because this young lady is all wired up, and, why don't we -- let's go off the record. There's no use in putting all this down.




MR. WOERHEIDE:  Dr. MacDonald, we have made some changes in the room, now, since you were here in the grand jury room before.
    This would be the east wall of the living room, where you are standing; the corner of the dais for our foreman would be the entrance to the hallway.
    Now, will you please make any rearrangement of the furniture that you deem necessary in order to properly show where they were located on that evening?

A  Well, I would say normally the coffee table would be a little bit closer. Probably it would be about that.


FOREMAN:  How about the couch in relation to the door?

A  That's about how I would remember it. I would say about six or eight or ten inches from the edge of the hallway is approximately how I would remember it.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  All right.

A  First of all this room gives you a sense of a much larger room. The living room was very much smaller than this, it would seem to me.


A  And this would be somewhere like this, approximately.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Would you say that the table behind which you were standing would be representative of the wall which had, I think, a picture window in it?
A  This would be the wall of the house, yes, right.
Q  So, we're narrowing the limits of this room by about that much.
    Now, would you say about where the gentleman is standing would be --
A  That would be the front door.
Q  That would be the front door?
A  It's only like eight or nine feet from the rocking chair.
Q  And would you be -- would you say approximately where the blonde lady is sitting or maybe slightly to her right, would be where the television was set up?
A  Oh, it might be, but I don't think it was that big. It may be that far. I doubt it.
Q  Well, where would the kitchen wall and corner of the closet be?
A  About where you are, sir.
Q  About where I am. Now, I'm away -- this is where it would start?
A  That's right, that should be about right.
Q  That should be about right for the corner --
A  Right.
Q  -- of the room?
A  That's right.
Q  And then the dining room would be in this area?
A  Correct.
Q  Where I am. Well, let's take a marker and mark a circle around the coffee table and legs, and the -- I don't know how good that is.
A  This is -- I didn't -- I don't recollect -- you know -- where this chair was that night. This is the usual position for it.
Q  Well, you don't have any reason to believe it was any place else other than the usual position, do you?
A  Or -- well, unless I was reading --
Q  (Interposing) You don't just remember moving it yourself or Kim moving it or anything of that sort?
A  Right, unless someone had been like -- if I had turned it to put my feet up on the table or the chair or something.
Q  Yes, I understand.
A  Well, you said it's not too important. That's the reason I'm trying to be --
Q  (Interposing) No, it's not going to become any more important than you make it.
    You say this usually was -- you were laying on the floor for a while that night?
    You did watch T.V. You may have watched it from the chair?
A  Right.
Q  You were asleep for a while. Kim was playing around. She could have been in and out of the chair, and there may have been some slight variations in the position of the chair as a result of that.
A  Right.
Q  But, --
A  And there was a rug on the floor.
Q  Yeah, and that does make a difference in the sounds that you can hear, and that makes things -- it's easier to slide things on a slick floor than it is on a floor with a rug on it.
    Okay, now, these are your cushions from your house, but I think that the cushions that actually were on the sofa that night were returned to you, and you either disposed of them or you still have them, one or the other.

MR. STROUD:  Do you still have them?

A  I don't even --

MR. STROUD:  One of them is a leopard skin covered type.

A  I have a leopard skin pillow, but I can't imagine that I have a pillow from then.

MR. STROUD:  It's sort of square, thick, about that thick (indicating) leopard skin.

A  I have one of those.

MR. STROUD:  Would that be the one that was in the apartment?

A  I have no idea.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Did you have sort of a lawn sale or a garage sale or whatever they call it of any of your property when it was returned to you?
A  I gave a lot of it away.
Q  And you remember giving the cushions to anyone?
A  No.
Q  Well, I'm going to ask you this, Dr. MacDonald, you've been very cooperative in all respects, and I very much appreciate your cooperation, and I will show you a photograph that indicates a leopard skin cushion, and another cushion which I think was under the leopard skin cushion, and was on your sofa when it was photographed and if you do have those cushions, I would ask you if you're willing to cooperate to the extent of making them available to us.
    I will show you the photographs before you leave so you can identify them.
    Now, as I say, there were two cushions on the sofa.
    Do you remember when you were lying there that night that those cushions -- were there -- were a couple of cushions there or you had some support for your head, or were you lying -- I learned something here today, the difference between prone and --
A  Supine?
Q  Supine. Were you just lying supine without any cushions?
A  I don't know. I usually sleep without a pillow.
Q  Well, will you show us how you were sleeping there, and if you want to take off your shoes or take off your jacket -- I'm not asking you to disrobe yourself, but would you show us how it was that you were lying there, and how were you covered with the afghan?
A  I don't remember how I was covered with the afghan, Mr. Woerheide. I will reconstruct for you what probably is an approximate position.
    I usually sleep like this.
Q  Yeah.
    And being a large man, your feet hang over the end of the sofa as I do, which mine always do.
    Okay, now, Mr. Stroud, Mr. Foreman -- you're a young lady, do you want to take part in this?
    I'm pretty big, I'm bigger than any of the people you described. I mean I'm so big that I know that -- you know -- will you direct these people what they should do, Dr. MacDonald, and do what you think you should do to indicate to us what happened?
    Let's place this gentleman --
A  Well, I'd rather use Mr. Stroud for the assailant. You know -- it's only appropriate.

MR. STROUD:  No, it is not appropriate.


A  This is the position that I was in, like this, when I was awakened, I was lying flat on my back.
Q  Now, were these two people closer together?
A  It's approximately correct -- you know.
Q  (Mr. Stroud) Were they this close to the end of the couch, or were they back against the wall more?
A  Oh, no, they were closer.
Q  Would you say it was closer?
A  Right.
Q  Like that?
A  Just like that.
Q  (Mr. Woerheide) I understand you rise up and at the same time Mr. Stroud comes down beside the coffee table?
A  Right, right, the gentleman to my left.

MR. STROUD:  Sort of one step in?

A  Right. And I was getting up like this, and I -- either I was saying, or I was getting ready to say, what the hell is going on here?

MR. STROUD:  And then what happened?

A  And then this gentleman -- not you, Mr. Stroud --

MR. STROUD:  I understand.

A  -- the assailant is raising or using a club.

MR. STROUD:  With one or two hands as I understand your description.

A  Yes, but it was off to the right side.

MR. STROUD:  Like this?

A  Sort of like that, but it wasn't really like that.

(Mr. Stroud moves hand position.)

A  Like that. Right, and he went like that. And that's what happened, and he hit me with it. And my best recollection of that then is I was back down on the couch like this. And so I was getting up again like this.
    And he started hitting me again like that, and I reached up and grabbed the arm.
Q  (Mr. Woerheide) All right, grab his arm, and while you're doing that, these guys, what're they doing?
A  It was -- it was when I was holding the arm that I realized that these guys were punching me as far as being hit.
Q  Can you suggest as to who was punching you?

FOREMAN:  We've got to get to him. It looks like we have to move closer.

A  Right, and I was sort of like trying to get up at this point. And I slid off the arm down onto the club.
    I assume he was jerking it backwards.
Q  All right.
A  So it was sort of like this.
Q  And they were still punching you?
A  I don't think my hands went over two hands. My hands went over one hand it seems like.
Q  Okay.
A  And he jerked back, and I was down on it like this.
Q  Okay, right.
A  And then -- you know -- it was sort of then that I felt the blow that was the heavy blow, I thought.
Q  Okay. And that was in this area, so he had to get under your arm, or elbow --
A  Right.
Q  Somehow?

MR. STROUD:  One of these two?

A  Right.

MR. STROUD:  Can you specify which one?

A  No, it seems like it would have to be his left arm or this gentleman.
Q  (Mr. Woerheide) All right, and he had to strike you sort of under your forearm and elbow in order to get in there?
A  If there -- you know -- if this guy is going like this --
Q  I see.
A  -- trying to jerk the club away, and I'm trying to hold onto the club.

MR. STROUD:  And this is when you saw the stripes?

A  Well, no, I saw the stripes when I was up holding an arm, actually.
    The reason I thought -- let me correct something, I think. When I was trying to debrief my lawyers last night, and -- you know -- telling them the questions you would ask and what was said in the room, let's see -- I was trying to remember whether I said right or left to you.
    Because I really meant the right. And I thought, gee, I've been saying left all afternoon, probably.
    So, what my recollection was or what I've always pictured in mind is I was holding this arm because it, as I said, it seemed his body was here; right here.

MR. STROUD:  Closer to you?

A  Closer to me. Right, right like that, right, just like you.

MR. STROUD:  And the club, where would that be?

A  He started jerking it back, and I slipped on it, but it seemed like I slipped on one hand, and that's why I have always, in my mind, pictured his body right in front of me, so it was his right side, his right arm, follow me?
Q  Yeah.
A  And then I had this and -- what I thought was a heavy punch on the right side -- you know --
Q  All right, now, how did you get up off the couch and get to the point where you fell?

MR. STROUD:  Let's get -- can we get the young lady situated, where you had seen her and how?

A  That's exactly how it happened, sir, that's exactly how it was. It was a glimpse as I was -- I believe it was the first time I was up, and I just saw her for a split second.

MR. STROUD:  The first time up, they would have been back a little further, right?

A  Right.

MR. STROUD:  All right, back about like this?

A  Right.

MR. STROUD:  And you saw her between them?

A  Just exactly as I see her now. That's all I ever saw, just exactly that right there. That's all I ever saw, just exactly that right there. That's exactly what happened.

MR. STROUD:  Was she that close behind them, or further behind?

A  I don't know. I don't know.

MR. STROUD:  All right, excuse me. I didn't --

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Why don't y'all just stand there, and we'll make a couple more marks? We've got you in position now.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  How about putting your foot down? And you get your left foot down on the floor.

(Mr. Woerheide makes pen marks on the floor to indicate position of assailants.)

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Were you a little closer or are you just about right?

A  That would be about right.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Okay, thank you, sir.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Now, somehow or other you have to come forward far enough to get off the couch?
A  Right.
Q  And as you're going down, you're seeing a knee, and a boot top and somehow or other then means you have got to get between or -- these people or you have to get between our foreman and the corner of the dais there, and -- to get to that point?
A  Right.
Q  Now, will you direct them?
A  I don't know if I can direct them, sir. This is --
Q  Would you do your best?
A  Okay, I sure will. Sometime during this, I was up like this. I don't know if it was when I was holding onto his arm and he jerked away, and I was being pulled up, but I was up. So I must have been up this high.
Q  Yeah.
A  Okay, and then the next thing I knew I was going off the end of the couch like this.
Q  Forward?
A  Yeah, and all that happened was I saw a knee.
Q  Somehow or other they had to get out of your way?
A  That's right. He could have backed up a step or stepped sideways, and I went between them.
Q  But you ended up into the hall actually?
A  Yep.
Q  How did you get in that position to the hall?
A  Well, the steps are right at the foreman's heel, and when I sort of came to, I was laying right there.
Q  Okay --

MR. STROUD:  But you remember falling?

A  I remember just really going forward towards the steps, that's right.

MR. STROUD:  And seeing the shoe or the boot and knee?

A  I saw a knee and what I thought was a top of a boot.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Now, and as I recall you said the lady moved slightly. Now, that would put her maybe about like this?
A  I didn't say she moved. I said it must have been her because I saw a knee there.
Q  What you saw, would she be -- would she be about here when you saw the knee? Now, is that a proper location?
A  I would presume that would be about right. So here, apparently the foreman would have to move slightly. (Jury foreman moves.) Correct.
Q  And chances are that the two of them just sort of moved like this --
A  Right.
Q  -- and you went down here?
A  Right.
Q  Okay.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  This is one, one, two, two.

(Mr. Woerheide marks placement of feet.)

MR. WOERHEIDE:  One, one, two, two. Okay.

A  And I just presume that I was helped toward the steps a little by a blow to the head. I don't know.
Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Yep.

MR. STROUD:  And one point while you were in this position is when you recall your arms being bound?

A  My arms were being bound here, and I was fending off with both arms, right.

MR. STROUD:  Did you have bodily contact between your arms and their body?

A  Ah --
Q  (Mr. Woerheide) I don't have pajamas. I have a towel. Would that be about the way it was?
A  Exactly.
Q  Where it was?
A  Right.
Q  And you're thrusting out like this?
A  That's right.
Q  And at the same time they are punching at you?
A  Right, exactly.
Q  And this guy standing on the corner is --

MR. STROUD:  What am I doing?

A  Well, there was a couple of blows to my left shoulder and side during this attack, but that's all I know.

MR. STROUD:  You're talking about your left shoulder?

A  You know, we're talking about thirty seconds, at best and that's an estimate.
    This would be about -- you know -- my best recollection of what happened.


MR. STROUD:  When you're punching at them?

A  But I don't know whether I tried to get up like this. I would presume that would be the effort.
Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Let's see, this has to be your footprint?
A  Right, movement.
Q  Yes, okay.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Mr. Foreman, it's quarter of twelve, and I wonder if you want to break at this time for lunch.

FOREMAN:  I have only one question. Did you ever remember the black male backing up away from you?

A  No, what happened was, I was holding the club and let go and grabbed him with these two and that was it.

FOREMAN:  So you could have lurched backwards when he released?

A  So, absolutely, because I just let go and toppled this way. That's exactly what happened.
    All I had was a sensation of his pulling at me holding on. But if you will reconstruct it -- I'm not trying to make something out of it -- but in reconstructing, I would presume that is what in fact helped me get up a little. And then I'm struggling this way. I turned from him and that was it, really.
    The next thing I know, I was down there.
Q  (Mr. Woerheide) I don't remember now how that afghan got from where it was over you to where it is now. Could you do that once more?
A  Sir, I don't know how it got there either.

JUROR:  He laid it back there. When we went to get up, he took it and laid it back there.

A  There was a million ways. I don't even always use a blanket, by the way. I don't know. During the struggle I have no idea. When I got up, it would be right here (indicating), if it was over me -- you know -- sometimes I lay -- sometime -- I never sleep with anything over my feet, by the way. I know that sounds a little weird, and if it was up this way, it would have been easy.
    If the house was hot, and I honestly don't recollect which way the blanket was when I went to sleep or got up.
Q  And you don't recall that you removed the cushions when you lay down there that night?
A  I don't recall. Sometimes, I would. I don't actually recall that night. Sometimes I actually slept like this. This is how I slept sometimes. But I don't -- you know -- recall which was -- which was the case.
Q  Yeah, and you don't remember the table being knocked over --
A  No, sir.
Q  -- or anything of that sort?
A  No, sir.
Q  And you don't remember how the scene appeared to you as you went through to the kitchen or as you were removed from the house or at any other moment?
A  No, sir.
Q  On the morning of February 17?
A  That's right.


FOREMAN:  We'll recess then to one o'clock, if you like. It's quarter to twelve.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  All right.



(FRIDAY AFTERNOON, AUGUST 16, 1974, 1:30 P.M.)


Q  Dr. MacDonald, we do have one pile of magazines and newspaper that came from the house, and there's another pile that was on the table. Do you remember how those things were that night by any chance?
A  No, I do not, sir.
Q  Do you recall there were two piles of things?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Was the flower pot kept usually at the far end of that coffee table where the cup is now located?
A  Anywhere in there. Anywhere, really. No, I wouldn't say specifically on the end, no.
Q  Now, we talked previously about cushions. Let me show you a photograph made of the house on the morning -- do you see those cushions?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  Do you recognize them?
A  Sure.
Q  Do you still have those cushions?
A  I probably still have the leopard skin, if that's the same one I have in California.
Q  Well, would you be so kind as to make it available to us for examination?
A  Sure, with the understanding that may not be the same one.
Q  All right, okay. Now, here's a photograph that shows the coffee table apparently knocked over. Under it are some magazines and over one leg is a pair of slippers. Are those your slippers?
A  Yes, they are.
Q  There's a flower pot. Is that the type of flower pot that was on the end of the coffee table?
A  Well, it looks like it, right.
Q  Yeah, and there's a bottle of glue. Does that look like something that Kimberly might have been playing with?
A  Right.
Q  And here is a paper box, a cardboard box that apparently has a child's game in it.
    Do you recognize that?
A  Well, not specifically. But -- you know -- I'm sure it was probably here.
Q  Here's another photograph that would enable you to see better the -- the game and the slippers.
A  I don't specifically recognize the game, but -- you know -- I'm sure it was one of the girls'.
Q  And they're your slippers, though?
A  They appear to be in the photograph, right.
Q  Yeah, have you made an exhibit today?


MR. WOERHEIDE:  Let's mark these as MacDonald Exhibits one and two of this date.


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Just to help you more clearly identify it, this is a picture that depicts the cushions. Does that refresh your recollection that you also have at your home besides a leopard skin cushion a -- one that has the appearance of the other cushion?
A  No, I don't have that one.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  All right, well, mark this as MacDonald Exhibit 3.


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Here are a series of pictures, one looking towards the dining room, you recognize that?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  And a blue table cloth and a couple of candle sticks and --
A  Right.
Q  Is that the general appearance of the room on the night of February 16 - February 17?
A  I would presume so.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Will you mark that as MacDonald Exhibit 4, please?


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Here's a black and white photograph looking towards the T.V. and the closet; shows part of the hi-fi set; shows a desk.
    Can you recognize that?
A  Looks like mainly my stuff.
Q  Is that the way it looked that night, as you recall?
A  I really have no distinct recollection of -- you know -- of it.
    I mean that's the way the room normally looked, yeah.
Q  All right, sir.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Let's mark this as MacDonald Exhibit 5 of this date.


A  I don't know whose glasses those would be in there.
Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Did Colette wear glasses?
A  Yeah, very infrequently she did.
Q  Were they -- were her frames somewhat like those frames?
A  I don't remember what her last pair were like to tell the truth. She hardly ever wore them.
Q  Well, she just came back from class, where she was taking notes and presumably reading what she was writing, if not reading other material.
    Would she use glasses on those occasions?
A  She used them mainly to drive. She drove that night, so they may be here. I don't recognize them, though.
Q  All right.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Let's mark that as MacDonald's Exhibit number 5.

REPORTER:  It's been marked.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Have all the exhibits up to this point been marked?


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Here's a color photograph that shows mainly the T.V. set and lamp and part of the hi-fi. There's a blue garment, apparently on the door knob to the closet. You recognize that?
A  Yeah.
Q  Do you recognize the scene or do you recognize the garment?
A  Right, it looks like one of the kids' coats. We didn't smoke. I don't know whose cigarettes are those, and whose clipboard, but that is the house.
Q  Yeah, well, I guess the clipboard and the cigarettes are those of an investigator.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Will you mark this as MacDonald Exhibit 6, please?


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) This shows once again the wall with the hi-fi and a part of the dining room, is that correct?
A  That's correct.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Will you mark this as MacDonald Exhibit 7, please?


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) One thing I didn't ask you, Dr. MacDonald, when you went into the living room, I'm sorry, when you went into the master bedroom, did you see anything written anywhere in the room; on the wall or on the bed or anywhere else?
A  No, I didn't notice anything.
Q  You didn't see the bloody writing?
A  No, I did not.
Q  You didn't observe the word "pig"?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Here's a picture taken from the bedroom -- I mean -- sorry, let me start all over again.
    Here is a picture taken from the living room, it shows a part of the east wall of the living room, the couch, shows the hallway. And at the end of the hallway, and at the end of the hallway, covering part of the hall and part of the steps, is a red garment.
    Can you tell us if that indicates approximately the point where you were laying at the time you realized that the house was still and your teeth were chattering?
A  Yeah, but I presume the garment wasn't there.
Q  Do you know where that garment was?
A  No.
Q  You know how the garment got there?
A  Have no idea.
Q  Can you tell us what the garment is?
A  I believe -- I believe it's -- I'm not really sure. Maybe, a sleeping bag type thing. Or some of it looks like clothing; some of the kids' clothing. The red thing, I don't know if it's a jacket or a sleeping bag type thing for Kim.
Q  Let me ask you: were you shown any of these pictures before?
A  These photographs I'm looking at now?
Q  Yeah.
A  Some of them, right.
Q  Well, were you shown that one before?
A  I believe I was.
Q  And do you remember what if anything you said about the red garment or the sleeping bag?
A  No, I don't. I may have said that we -- sometimes we would leave things -- you know -- near the end of the hallway there, and usually when we clean up the living room, you put a few things on the end of the stair -- on the end of the stairway area there.
Q  So the next time you go by, you can take them and place them where they belong, is that it?
A  Right.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Miss Reporter, will you mark that as MacDonald Exhibit number 8?


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Dr. MacDonald, I know you were shown various pictures at the Article 32 hearing. Were you also shown various pictures on the April 6 interrogation?
A  Yeah, I believe this is the one -- one of the pictures. The last one that I saw was the one that they showed me, and they showed me another one, apparently inadvertently, that all the pieces of material and clothing were removed.
    And they purported that both of them were the crime scene, --
Q  Right.
A  -- and even an untrained observer like myself could see that the photographs were different. Apparently, the CID couldn't.
Q  Were you shown pictures of the bodies?
A  Never, sir.
Q  You were shown autopsy pictures?
A  I was not.
Q  Well, just from reading newspaper accounts and I think these stem from interviews given by your attorneys, Mr. Segal and Mr. Eisman, there was an account that autopsy pictures were produced --
A  Oh, yes.
Q  -- and I think your mother was there, and she left the hearing room?
A  Yes, Captain Somers -- Captain Somers decided that it was better to put them up on a screen with slides than to show pictures to Colonel Rock.
    He thought that would be even more helpful.
Q  All right, now, what pictures were projected on this screen?
A  Well, the doctor was testifying apparently, there were some autopsy pictures.
    I didn't see the pictures myself.
Q  Were you shown the pictures of the bodies in place upon the bed?
A  Seems to me that they -- either in the Article 32 or my lawyer showed them to me once to ask me -- you know -- as far as my recollection of the position of the bodies.
    I was either shown them once by my lawyers or in the Article 32, one. I don't know which was right.
Q  Were these color prints or black and white prints or what?
A  I believe they were color. I'm not sure.
    I have seen some black and white pictures -- you know -- in relation to the case, but I'm not sure what they were, which was which -- I saw some color pictures and some black and white.
Q  Now, were they of all the girls of your family? That is Colette, and Kim and Kris? Or were they just of Colette?
A  I believe the only ones I've seen were of Colette.

(Mr. Woerheide looks through book of photographs.)

DR. MacDONALD:  If you think that's necessary, Mr. Woerheide, go ahead, but let's get it over with.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I don't think it's necessary, and would you prefer that I not?

DR. MacDONALD:  I do.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  All right, we'll forego it.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Now, so, suffice it to say, just to sum up your testimony, your wife was lying on the floor, right next to the chair. Colette -- Kimberly was lying on the left side of the bed, she was on her back.
    Kris was lying on the right side of her bed; that is the edge towards the inside of the room, and she was lying on her back. The only movement that you had to make of any of the bodies was to place your hand under and sort of raise it slightly for the purpose of giving artificial respiration?
A  Right.
Q  You did not change their position?
A  (Shakes head negatively)
Q  You just left them the way they were?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  Made the telephone call. You don't know how you moved to the position you were found when you -- the MPs came into the house, but somehow or other you got to that place, and you were lying on your back in a -- what is that word --

FOREMAN:  Supine.

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) -- supine position, and with your head against Colette's body?
A  Right. The only people that I know of that rolled the bodies were apparently the doctor who pronounced death, apparently rolled Kristy and Colette, or testified that he did at the Article 32 hearing.
    He testified that he rolled Kristy over, and he testified that he rolled -- rolled over or sat Colette up. I don't know which.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Mr. Foreman, I do have other physical evidence. It's in another room. When I say physical evidence, I'm referring to the club that was shown to Dr. MacDonald previously, two knives and an ice pick, and there's a piece of board.
    And could we just have a few minutes' recess, so I can procure those things and bring them back to the grand jury?

FOREMAN:  Well, it's five minutes to two, so we'll say two o'clock.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Two o'clock?

FOREMAN:  Five minutes.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Thank you. Please, people, don't step on the marks.


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Dr. MacDonald, I have certain physical objects that I am told were found in and in the immediate vicinity adjacent to your house on the morning of February 17.
    I know you have seen these before in connection with the investigation on the Article 32 hearing.
A  Sir, while you're doing that, may I make a comment relative to your last comment as I was leaving, whereby you summed up some of the movements --
Q  Yeah.
A  -- and the movements of the bodies.
Q  Yeah.
A  I just wanted to again remind you that I did in fact move Colette.
Q  Yeah, you shifted her body from the chair slightly to the south away from the chair.
A  That's right.
Q  Right, I understand.
    Dr. MacDonald, can you identify that piece of wood as an object that belonged to you; that was a part of your supply of scrap lumber or --
A  Sir, it very well could have been in the back well around the back of the house. I had a lot of scrap lumber. It very well could have belonged to us. I don't recognize it, however, except when it was shown to me at the Article -- at the Article 32.
Q  Well, you will see it has some paint on it; paint spots and a mark that appears somebody used it under an object that was being painted?
A  Right.
Q  Could you tell us by its color, and -- whether that was the type of paint that you used?
A  Sir, that looks like the same kind or same color that was used on either a bookcase or a chest of drawers.
Q  Now, I am told that somewhere on this piece of wood, there was a telephone number written, and I have been looking at it to see if I could make out the telephone number.
A  Well, the CID probably destroyed it, sir.
Q  And I don't find it. But -- did you ever discuss the telephone number being on this club with anyone?
A  No, sir.
Q  During the course of the investigation?
A  Never.
Q  Okay.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Miss Reporter, this is the wrapper that that club came in and I am going to put it back in here. Would you mark that as MacDonald Exhibit number 9 of this date?


MR. WOERHEIDE:  Can you mark this?

Q  (Mr. Woerheide) All right, I'm going to ask you about a telephone number, 842-5226. Does it mean anything to you, Dr. MacDonald?
A  No, sir.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Miss Reporter, would you mark this as MacDonald Exhibit number 10 of this date?


MR. WOERHEIDE:  And Miss Reporter, will you in addition mark on this label, MacDonald Exhibit number 11 -- ice pick; and number 12 -- knife, of this date?


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) All right, Dr. MacDonald, I show you MacDonald Exhibit number 10, which is a small kitchen knife. It has the name, "Old Hickory" on it, and I ask you if you can identify this knife as one of the household knives of the MacDonald household?
A  No, sir. I do not recognize the knife.
Q  Prior to February 16, did you ever see that knife?
A  I did not.
Q  Are you positive that you never saw it?
A  Yes, it seems to me I would remember it.
Q  It's not possible that Colette had gone out and bought the knife and put it in the drawer and not said anything to you about it, and there it was?
A  Sure, but you asked me if I had ever seen it, and I have never seen it.
Q  You don't recall seeing it?
A  Right.
Q  You don't deny seeing it prior to that date if it was mixed up with a bunch of other knives in your drawer?
A  I do not recognize this as a knife from my house.
Q  Well, let's say I brought in at this time a -- jumble of knives, forks, spoons, ladles, and other utensils that were in the drawer of your kitchen as of February 16. How many of them would you recognize?
A  I have no idea, to be honest.
Q  Do you think you could recognize any of them specifically?
A  Sure, silverware and things, sure.
Q  Now, when you mean silverware, you mean tableware or kitchen ware?
A  Probably mean the tableware.
Q  Well, how about the odds and ends in the kitchen drawer, paring knives, the cutting knives, the chopping knives, the slicers, the --
A  I'm sure there would be some I wouldn't be able to recognize.
Q  Were the knives that were in the household returned to you as a part of the property that belonged to you that you took, as you took the pillows and various other things?
A  I don't believe so. I believe the only thing returned was a set of -- a good set of silver.
Q  All right, now, MacDonald Exhibit number 11 is the ice pick and MacDonald Exhibit number 12 is the knife.
    They are in two separate plastic containers, and it's not necessary -- I'd just as soon not remove them, and they have been attached together, so I'll leave them attached together.
    And I'll ask you with specific reference to each of these, the ice pick and the knife, whether you recognize these objects as objects that were a part of your household furnishings?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now, you will notice, Dr. MacDonald, that the knife is somewhat distinctive in the sense that it appears to have been bent.
    Do you recall there being a bent knife in your household?
A  I do not.
Q  For the record, the knife has inscribed on the blade, "stainless, Geneva Forge."
    And you'll agree that's a stainless steel knife?
A  I presume.
Q  Well, let me ask you this: according to your recollection, did you have knives of the type of "Old Hickory" knife and the "Geneva Forge" knife in your house, the general type, the general appearance?
A  The Old Hickory knife looks more distinctive. That's why I really don't recollect that. I don't believe that could be from the house. I think I would have remembered that.
    The Geneva Forge looks much more like a routine paring knife that we may have had, but I don't recognize it.
Q  Did you ever use a knife of this type as a pry bar to open something?
A  No.
Q  You're strong, and I suppose if anyone were to use a -- an instrument of this type as a lever or pry bar, it would be Colette rather than you?
A  Right.
Q  This looks like a relatively new ice pick. Had you bought an ice pick recently?
A  No, I didn't.
Q  Well, do you recall having lost an ice pick?
A  No, I didn't. I don't believe we had an ice pick. I've been asked that. We didn't have an ice pick as far as I knew of.
Q  You don't recall that there was an ice pick in the house?
A  I don't think there was.
Q  Did Colette have any problem taking ice trays out of the refrigerator?
A  Not that I am aware of.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Miss Reporter, will you please mark this hair brush as MacDonald Exhibit 13 of this date?


MR. WOERHEIDE:  I have another hair brush, and I ask that that be marked as MacDonald Exhibit number 14 of this date.


Q  (Mr. Woerheide) Dr. MacDonald, I show you exhibit 13 and ask you if you can identify this as a hair brush that was used in your household that was found next to Colette's body?
A  No, I cannot.
Q  Well, as you recall, did she have a hair brush similar to that?
A  It doesn't look familiar, no.
    This is the famous hair brush with the dyed hair in it that is unidentified?
Q  Sir, I have no knowledge concerning dyed hair that is not identified.
    I hope that I will be informed of that before we're through with this if there is such a hair.
    Tell me about it. What do you know about it?
A  Allegedly there was a hair brush found in the master bedroom with dyed hair. Reddish -- it was either black hair dyed red or red hair dyed black that had not been identified.
Q  I see.
A  That's all I know about it.
Q  All right, here's another hair brush, the handle is pink, it was found on the dresser in the master bedroom.
    Can you identify that?
A  Not -- I mean not a hundred percent to be quite honest, but this looks like one the kids had or Colette used occasionally.
    Actually, it looks more like one of the kids' brushes. I don't know.
Q  Well, I'm told there were a couple of her hair brushes which we do not have here, but these are the hair brushes from the master bedroom. That one looks familiar to you. This one you say you cannot recognize?
A  This one doesn't look familiar.
Q  All right, did Colette ever strike you with a hair brush?
A  Strike me?
Q  Yeah.
A  No, sir.
Q  Did she ever strike you with anything?
A  I believe she pushed me away one time, in Chicago, when we were in medical school. We were having a little talk, and she got mad and got up off the couch and pushed me out of the way and went in the kitchen.
Q  Is that a -- the only time that she's ever pushed you or shoved you or done any other act of violence toward you?
A  The only time I can remember.


Q  Okay, Doctor, I've got several questions I'd like to ask you, and I'll try to go through them rather quickly so we can go ahead and get out of here for the weekend.
    Your brother you say is living in New Hope?
A  That's right.
Q  With a girl?
A  That's right.
Q  Do you know where he's employed if he does work?
A  He works apparently for -- it's like a -- not a florist, but a nursery -- you know -- doing gardening-type work in a nursery.
Q  Is that at New Hope or some other location?
A  I'm not sure.
Q  Do you know the name of it?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Do you know the girl's name?
A  Yes, Helen Charles.
Q  Do you know where she works?
A  Yes, she's a laboratory technician in a hospital in some town around New Hope, Pennsylvania.
Q  Is there any other information you can give us about where your brother might live, the location in New Hope?
A  No, I don't know the street address. It's a rural delivery number, as a matter of fact. I don't know the street location.
Q  Now, the several names that you referred to of friends and associates that you had at Fort Bragg during the time that you were there, have you had any contact with any of them since you have been in California?
A  I got a letter from Harrison, Lieutenant Ron Harrison.
Q  Right.
A  About a year and a half ago. It was -- yeah, it was a year and a half ago, because it was Christmas time, something like that.
Q  Right.
A  I don't believe any other -- maybe a letter from Captain Butner about three years ago.
Q  You haven't maintained contact with them continually? You still don't maintain a relationship with them?
A  Not with the people -- not with the Army people that I was associated with, no.
Q  None of the people at Bragg do you now have an association with?
A  No, I saw the Thoesen's, that's Captain Richard Thoesen and Lieutenant -- I've forgotten his wife's first name.
    They were our associates and friends, also, and I saw them about two years ago.
Q  Now, other than Harrison, Captain Frank Moore, Captain James Williams, Thoesen, Butner, Probst, are there any others now that you can recall having a close relationship with at Bragg?
A  You mean at work now, or socially?
Q  In any way?
A  Well -- you know -- I work with people in the office every day. Sergeant Violetti, Master Sergeant Violetti, I worked with him every day for a long period of time.
Q  Well, let's limit it to socially then. Are there any others besides these you have mentioned that were friends other than at work?
A  No, not really. Other than -- you know -- we kind of had a distant, sort of a commanding officer type social relationship with Colonel Robert Kingston from the Third Special Forces group.
Q  What was -- was he a superior? I mean, obviously he outranked you, but was he in the line of command above you?
A  He was commander -- not at the same time Colonel Kane was. He was the Colonel Kane of an earlier time. He was in control of the Third Special Forces group, and I went from the Third to the Sixth, and that was Colonel Kane.
Q  Was he commander at the Third when you were in the Third?
A  That's correct.
Q  I see. After you went to the Sixth, do you maintain your relationship with Colonel Kingston?
A  He was -- he went to Viet Nam.
Q  All right, okay, now, other than; you were questioned about close associates that your wife had at Bragg?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  And you mentioned the Kalins. How close was that relationship?
A  Not really very close. They were neighbors -- you know -- borrow-a-cup-of-sugar type thing, but not really a close relationship.
Q  Did Mrs. Kalin work, or did she stay home during the day?
A  She stayed home.
Q  Were there any others in the neighborhood, any other close friends that you know your wife had while you were at Bragg, women who lived in the neighborhood, or men?
A  No.
Q  Okay, and you mentioned Carol Butner. She's the wife of the Captain?
A  Captain Butner, right.
Q  And classmates she went to school with. Are there any other people that you know of who had a relationship with your wife or knew her fairly well other than just a brief acquaintanceship at Bragg?
A  I don't think so.
Q  Remember one?
A  I don't think so.
Q  So she really didn't have any close friends at Bragg, is that what you're saying?
A  Yeah, not really. Yeah, that's actually right.
    She really didn't get into the Army-wife role, you know, and go to the -- you know -- the teas and whatnot in the morning, with the other Army wives very much.
Q  I'm not clear on this; did you have one or two trips to Texas, what you called TDY, I believe?
A  I was in Texas in July of 1969 for what -- doctors' basic -- you know -- the physicians and dentists and veterinarians.
Q  Where was that?
A  That was at Fort Sam Houston, which is in San Antonio. I was there for five weeks, July and the first week in August, but I went back to Texas as jump coverage on that weekend, whenever that was.
Q  Was that also Fort Sam Houston at San Antonio?
A  Right, exactly.
Q  Those were the only two times you were in Texas in connection with your service career?
A  That's right. That's right.
Q  Or the only time? Not two times.
A  No, I was down there when I was in high school.
Q  Yes, but I'm talking about during your service career?
A  No.
Q  Okay, you'll have to bear with me. I've got most of these questions marked, so I'll have to flip through.
    Now, how many interviews can you recall with Caverly, Agent Caverly from the FBI?
    I believe you said three?
A  Yeah, I say that, sir. I have read the interviews. I know I had three interviews.
    If you had asked me that, I don't really recollect who I was talking with the first day that he was one of the one, but apparently he was.
Q  Okay, do you recall the other two interviews?
A  Yeah, in a vague way. Guys came in and asked me questions in business suits, and -- you know -- I had so many interviews, so I'll say, yes.
Q  Now, you say on the first day you were asked questions. You say now you can't identify who they were, but they were official-type questions, as I recall?
A  Right.
Q  Was your terminology.
A  Right.
Q  When was this, sir, in relationship to when you got your visit from Captain Williams and your mother, and the Kassabs?
A  Oh, this was before then.
Q  How long before then?
A  This seemed to be that right around the time I think right after I -- right after the first chest tube was put in. This would be relatively early in the morning.
Q  After the first -- you say it was immediately after the first chest tube, or would you be within half an hour after?
A  It seemed approximate, you know. It seemed reasonably approximate, like it seemed like someone else started to come in like Williams or Colonel Kane or someone, and the nurse said, wait a minute, there're some people here to see him, or something like that.
Q  Okay, now how long after that did you -- did you first get a visit from Harrison or Williams or the Kassabs, or --
A  No.
Q  I presume it would have been either Harrison or Williams, one of those two?
A  Or Captain Hiestand -- you know, the group surgeon, my immediate superior.
Q  Okay.
A  Someone like that was the first. The Kassabs and my mother were late in the afternoon.
Q  On the 17th?
A  Right.
Q  Okay, now, you visited with Williams and Harrison that morning?
A  (No answer)
Q  Did both Harrison and Williams come over that morning on the 17th?
A  It seems to me -- yeah, it seems to me that that occurred.
Q  All right, now, you have referred to some valuables, a couple of rings, T.V., stereo, china closet, can you think of any other valuables that you had in the house?
A  No, none that I can think of.
Q  You did have a camera?
A  And camera equipment, right.
Q  Where was that kept?
A  I believe it was kept in the closet, in my closet. My clothing closet in the bedroom.
Q  In the bedroom?
A  Correct.
Q  Was that also the same closet where the box with the guns in it --
A  Right.
Q  Okay, now, the rifles you refer to, why did you have them?
A  Well, I thought it was a normal thing to do in America, when I was growing up, to have a .22 and my brother had a shotgun, and -- you know -- just over a period of probably ten to twelve years, I picked up those other couple -- you know -- the Italian, the British, and the 30-30.
Q  Why did you have them in your closet in a box?
A  Why did I have them there?
Q  Right, any particular reason?
A  So someone couldn't get to them, yeah, so the kids couldn't play with them.
Q  But is there any particular reason you had them in the house?
A  Oh, no, I never used them, you know. I just didn't -- you know -- I just never thought about it. As a matter of fact, I gave them away -- you know -- after my property was returned.
Q  Now, on the 17th or part of the 16th, you say that afternoon after you left that gym, you went home. Then you and the girls went to feed the horse?
A  Right.
Q  All right, okay, did you feed the horse at any other time that day?
A  I don't think so.
Q  Okay.
A  You know, that's an interesting comment. I just thought of something, actually.
    If I may -- I may have -- well, it's not important, but I may have fed the horse coming home from -- for the morning feeding, coming home from Hamlet.
    I don't think I was late for work that day, which would probably make me late for work. But it's just a thought, okay?
Q  Right.
A  Okay.
Q  Now, the -- do you have any independent recollection of the pillows, Mr. Woerheide showed you the pictures. You say one of them may be the one you have got now?
A  Unh-hunh (yes).
Q  Do you have any independent recollection of them at this time to size, or shape or those particular pillows other than what you saw in the photograph?
A  Of the ones that I had in the house?
Q  Right.
A  No, I don't.
Q  Okay, now, while we were going through the demonstration here, and I was serving as the assailant with the club, the way you described it, the blow came somewhat from the side?
A  Unh-hunh (yes).
Q  Rather than overhead?
A  Unh-hunh (yes).
Q  From the assailant, is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  Now, was it a full blow? I mean did he reach all the way back as far as he could on the side to hit you?
A  Well, that's the impression I had.
Q  Okay.
A  Quite frankly, that it was -- that he was taking a swing at me. I don't know with what force.
Q  But you say it was a pretty heavy impact?
A  Yes.
Q  Perhaps as hard as he could do it, or as hard as you could do it in his position?
A  I have no way of -- I mean I have no way of figuring that out.
Q  All right, okay, now, you have described that when you went in the master bedroom afterwards, that you noticed that Colette was -- her shoulder was up against the chair?
A  Right.
Q  Is, her shoulder was flat on the floor, but it was in contact with the chair, is that what you're saying?
A  No, she was leaning slightly against the chair.
Q  How much?
A  It seemed like just the -- as though she was turned a little, so the shoulder was up just a little bit.
Q  How -- how -- I know it's probably hard for you to remember in details, but from what you can remember, at the point where here shoulder came in contact with the chair, at what point above the floor was that, would you say in inches?
A  Oh, I don't know. I would probably say six or seven inches. She was rolled up against the chair just a little bit, it seemed like.
Q  Okay, why was it necessary to move her in order to give her mouth to mouth?
A  Well, if you're going to end up doing chest massage, you have to have them in a flat position.
Q  But not for mouth to mouth?
A  Not just for mouth to mouth, no, but -- you know -- I didn't know that at the time.
Q  You did not give closed chest massage?
A  I don't remember me doing that, no.
Q  Now, did you have a household step ladder?
A  I don't think so.
Q  Say a -- like you find in some households that you have got two or three rungs on it, two or three steps so you can get to an upper cabinet?
A  I don't remember one.
Q  How about a stool, either a foot rest type stool, or a stool that you would put someplace to step up on?
A  Ah, we had some kind of a stool. We had a black patent leather stool, I think. I think -- I don't know, in the dining room or living room area, there was some stool, I think. I'm not sure. We had one at one time. I don't remember which apartment it was in.
Q  But you're pretty sure you didn't have a step ladder?
A  I don't think we did.
Q  Did you have any kind of a ladder?
A  Not that I know of.
Q  All right, now, you described that knives were kept in the kitchen, of course, which is usual for -- in all of our homes, and it's -- you know -- generally, there may be some knives somewhere else in a home -- you know -- either for cutting or as an instrument of some kind.
    Did you have -- that you are aware of -- at this point from your recollection, were there any knives at any other location in the house, say in the utility room or the bathroom or hallway closet or anything like that?
A  Not that I'm aware of.
Q  Can you recall any incident during the time you lived at Bragg that there was one?
A  No.
Q  That you would keep in another part of the house?
A  No.
Q  Now, you were in the hospital for what? I can't recall exactly. Something like seven or eight days, about a week?
A  That sounds about right.
Q  Did you know any of the nurses who treated you, who attended to you during the time you were in the hospital?
A  No.
Q  Now, I'm not trying to make anything out of this as far as a relationship. I'm trying to determine if you knew any of them?
A  No, I didn't.
Q  At an Army hospital like Womack, are the attendants generally nurses, or are there also medics who are male attendants?
A  I think an occasional -- like medics or orderlies came in but usually it was a nurse.
Q  Do you recall any of the people who attended you other than the doctors during that time? You know, who daily would come in and see your needs who were part of the staff there?
A  No.
Q  Okay, but there were nurses coming in and out all the time, I presume?
A  Right.
Q  You did not actually work at Womack, is that correct?
A  No, I only worked at Womack one day in the emergency room, the whole time I was at Fort Bragg.
Q  You were an administrative type --
A  Well, no --
Q  -- to some extent?
A  No, it's not I was administrative. I was attached to the Special Forces -- you know -- and they were not associated with essentially Fort Bragg. It was field-type medicine.
Q  Okay, and can't -- can you now recall -- I mean you may not have known at the beginning of your stay, but at the end of your stay, had you established a relationship to any extent with any of the people that attended you that you can now recall? I'm just interested in the names of any of the people who may have attended you at that time.
A  No.
Q  Now, Mr. Woerheide asked you about the magazines, whether or not you could remember them being in two stacks on the coffee table?
A  Unh-hunh (yes).
Q  Do you remember that there were magazines on the coffee table?
A  Yes, it seems to me there were.
Q  And do you remember specifically the Esquire magazine that you referred to with Lee Marvin's picture on the front of it? Was it on the coffee table?
A  Yes, only because it's been pointed out to me.
Q  Can you specifically recall that it was that night on the coffee table?
A  You mean from pure recollection and not being told and listening to testimony?
Q  Right, right.
A  I really don't see how. I'm just really reconstructing in saying it must have been there, because I know it was there that weekend.
Q  But you can recall without being told there were magazines on the coffee table?
A  Right, right, because when I was sitting there reading, either in the rocker chair or on the end of the couch, one of the two chairs, my feet were up and it seems they were sitting up on the magazines.
Q  Okay, were there any magazines on the floor around the couch or coffee table or your chair?
A  I don't remember.
Q  Okay.
A  It's perfectly possible. If one of the kids -- you know -- was working up there, they'd clear off the table. So, it's perfectly possible.
Q  But you don't know?
A  No.
Q  Okay, you do remember one of the kids working at the coffee table?
A  One of them was doing something with a game that night. I honestly don't know if it's that game and the glue that's already been referred to, but when I was -- after dinner, I believe it was Kristy was doing -- you know -- doing something on the table.
    And I had cleared -- cleared off or at least either shifted the magazines or put them on the floor or something.
    And then -- you know -- I was going to settle down with Kim, and then I went and put Kristy to bed, and came back with Kimmy, and then she woke me up later to watch Laugh-In.
Q  So you have a specific recollection at this point that Kristy was playing on the coffee table and it was that particular night as opposed to another night?
A  I don't guarantee it was Kristy, but someone was playing on the table as I was clearing the dining room table.
Q  All right, okay, now, --
A  As a matter of fact, it was probably both of them. They were probably both -- it was probably one of them on each side of the table.
    That's what happened. They were playing on that end of the table, on each side of the table, and -- doing something. And then when I came out -- that's exactly what happened.
    I put Kristy in her bed, and Kim and I settled down.
Q  Okay, now, do you wear your contacts anymore, Doctor, now?
A  Not very much.
Q  When was the last time you wore them?
A  Oh, about a year ago.
Q  During the time back in February of '70, when all this occurred, were you -- I know you say you had just gotten some contacts. Were you experimenting with them or wearing them most of the time during the day?
A  I was just experimenting, really. I was only just starting to get into them again.
    I had worn them in the past, and then had gotten away from them because of jumping and stuff -- you know -- I was always afraid I was going to lose my contacts, so I switched over to my glasses, and I always carried an extra pair of glasses and -- for field trips and stuff -- you know -- if you're out sloughing through the bushes for a couple days, you can't clean your contacts, so I ended up getting back to my glasses.
    So at this point in time, I was really just -- the visit to Dr. Pierce, I believe it was to sort of re-establish -- you know -- the contact use. He was going to refit me or something like that.
Q  But, of course, you had a pair of contacts prior to that time?
A  Oh, yeah, right.
Q  That you were wearing?
A  I had contacts. I hadn't been wearing them for a while.
Q  But I'm talking about at Bragg.
A  Right.
Q  What were you normally doing, wearing contacts during the day, and take them out at night and use your glasses at night at home?
A  No, that's what I was saying. I wasn't really wearing them. I believe that's why I was seeing Dr. Pierce at this time.
    He was -- fitted me, make sure the old ones fit, and if they didn't fit, he was going to fit me with new ones, and I was just going to start re-wearing them, like you wear them for half an hour a day, and then an hour the next day -- you know -- and you gradually build up, and I was just going to start that sequence again.
Q  Why -- why were you not wearing the contacts you had at that time?
A  You mean that night.
Q  Right, or any time prior to that, while you were at Bragg?
A  I just explained it to you, because of the situation I was in, jumping and going to the field and all that stuff.
Q  Right, and --
A  And you can't -- you know -- when you're out in a tent, and stuff, you don't have a good way to clean your contacts.
Q  I'm talking about when you were on base, working in the office, ah --
A  Oh, I had just gotten away from it. I simply -- I wore them sometimes, but it was less than fifty percent of the time, I'm sure. I was really away from them when I was wearing glasses because it was easier.
Q  All right, did you wear them any that weekend, your contacts?
A  I don't know. I honestly don't remember that.
Q  You don't have any recollection of that?
A  (Shakes head negatively)
Q  Now, anytime that night, before or after your wife was at class, did she raise her voice?
A  No.
Q  Ever yell or scream or raise it in such a way that others might hear her outside or something of that nature?
A  No.
Q  Okay, now, you had a shed out back, is that right?
A  Right.
Q  I presume you had a -- the normal tools that people would have around the house, saw, that type of thing, or did you?
A  I had some things, I don't know specifically. I had some gardening tools and I guess some tools, because I had built the book shelves.
Q  Can you specifically recall that you had specific tools like a saw and hammers?
A  Yeah, I think I had -- oh, I had routine stuff like that. I had a couple of saws.
Q  Right.
A  And a hammer.
Q  Okay.
A  Now, you know, some nails, a screw driver and stuff like that, nuts and bolts.
Q  All right, now, you referred to the incident in Chicago when you were in medical school, and I'm not -- don't give me that look. I'm not trying to blow anything up. I'm just asking a simple question.
A  Okay.
Q  You referred to the incident where your wife pushed you out of the way. You were having some kind of an argument. How did you react to that when she pushed you away? Can you recall your reaction?
A  No, I mean I presume that I was, ah, amazed. I don't know. I have no idea. I have no recollection.
Q  Did you -- so you have no recollection?
A  Ah, you mean like what specifically was I feeling when she did that?
Q  Or do? Did you do anything? Did you push her back?
A  No, I didn't push her back.
Q  You can specifically recall you didn't push her back?
A  I never pushed my wife back.
Q  Oh, today -- now, you say as I recall your testimony that Kristen woke up crying that night?
A  Right.
Q  This is while you were in the living room by yourself after everybody had gone to bed?
A  Right.
Q  Okay, can you recall what you were doing at the time she woke up crying? Were you watching T.V., or were you reading your book, or were you washing the dishes?
A  Ah, I don't think I was washing the dishes. I think that I was in the living room, and I presume that I was still watching Johnny Carson and reading at the same time, because I remember at the time -- I remember like sort of hopping up -- you know -- and padding down the hall to see what -- you know -- what was going on.
Q  Okay.
A  So she wouldn't -- you know -- wake up the other people.
Q  So, you say you went from where you were in the living room, did you go into her room or just go to the doorway in her room? You say you padded down the hall.
Q  Well, I gave her a bottle, so I had to get into the room sometime. I don't know if I went down and said, what's up, Kris?, and she said, I want a bottle, and I went back and got it, or -- you know -- but I ended up giving her a bottle.
Q  Okay. Where did you get the bottle that you gave her? Where did you keep the bottle?
A  In the refrigerator. There's usually one made. Either Colette or I made it before she went to bed. It was usually chocolate milk.
Q  Okay, so you had gone -- can you specifically recall going in the refrigerator and getting the bottle and taking it to her?
A  Right.
Q  Okay, this was at the time she woke up crying?
A  Right.
Q  Okay, you had also given her a bottle earlier in the evening when she went to bed, is that right?
A  I don't know specifically. Usually she had one, yeah, it was sort of like a pacifier. She didn't have anything in it, like except if she woke up crying or something.
Q  So, you'd give her a bottle as a pacifier when she went to bed without anything in it?
A  Well, usually -- I don't want to give you a wrong impression, but it wasn't -- usually there was something in it. But it wasn't a big deal, usually, I'm saying. As long as she had it, usually she went off to sleep as long as she had something with her.
Q  Okay, could you specifically recall now giving her a bottle when she went to bed that evening?
A  No.
Q  You're saying that you probably did it because you did it every other night?
A  Right, exactly.
Q  Did she wake up crying often?
A  You mean that night or --
Q  No.
A  Generally?
Q  Right.
A  No. No, a couple of times a week.
Q  It wasn't a nightly routine?
A  No, she would get up and get her own bottle a lot.
Q  Right.
A  She'd wake up and kind of pad around and find her own bottle, and get back in her bed or climb in another bed.
Q  Do you know of any particular reason she woke up crying that night?
A  No.
Q  As opposed to any other night?
A  No.
Q  Did you ask her?
A  No, it didn't seem unusual at all. It just seemed like something kids do sometimes.
Q  Did you ask her if she had a bad dream or something like that, what was wrong?
A  Oh, I probably did. I probably said, everything's okay, Kris. And she said she wanted a bottle, so I gave her a bottle.
Q  But you have no specific recollection?
A  No, really what I recollect is she was crying and I went in and we sort of talked or something, and I got her a bottle.
Q  Do you remember what you talked about?
A  No.
Q  Now, you say that your wife was taking some nausea medicine?
A  Right.
Q  And she was also taking some -- I believe you called it Benadryl?
A  Right.
Q  Which was an antihistamine, but for the effect of sleeping?
A  Right.
Q  Now, you said something earlier in your testimony about she took some medicine, and I'm trying to recall what you said.
    Will you repeat, which medicine did she take if she took any that night?
A  The question was what medicine did I specifically recall her taking. And I said the Bendectin, B-e-n-d-e-c-t-i-n, because that's what she took every night.
Q  That's for nausea?
A  Right, I knew she was taking that at that time. She was about four or five months pregnant, and she had been nauseated for about two months.
Q  How do you know she took it?
A  Well, I don't know she took it. I mean, I didn't see her pop it in her mouth, but she just did it all the time, and she never forgot because she hated to be nauseated.
Q  So, you didn't see her take it?
A  No.
Q  How bout the Benadryl?
A  No, I wasn't aware of that until -- I just -- you know -- that's something that she occasionally took. Actually it wasn't very frequent that she took Benadryl.
Q  So you don't know from your personal knowledge that she took any that night?
A  No, I just found out from the autopsy report.
Q  The autopsy report indicated she had some in her system?
A  She had some Benadryl.
Q  The FM station you were listening to, was it a Fayetteville station?
A  Was it what?
Q  A Fayetteville station?
A  I don't know. They don't have much in the way of stations down there. And so I was trying to find one, and the one I got kept fading out. That's why I think it was that FM not a record that I was playing.
Q  Do you recall what town the FM station was in?
A  I have no idea.
Q  I mean sometimes late --
A  I don't know. Sometimes I even get it from Chicago. You know, I really don't remember.
Q  Now, what book were you reading that night?
A  I don't know. It was a -- I believe it was a mystery, and from reviewing -- you know -- other testimony, I said it may have been a Mickey Spillane. that may have been it. I mean I read a whole bunch of them. A series of things.
Q  Do you now have a recollection of reading a book that night?
A  I was reading something.
Q  Was it a paperback or --
A  Yeah, it was a paperback, and it was one of hundreds of books that I read.
Q  Did you have any other -- any paperbacks in the vicinity around the couch or the sofa, or on the desk in the living room? Where did you keep the paperbacks?
A  In the utility room in the back of the house.
Q  Did you have to go to the utility room that night to get the book when you started reading?
A  I don't think so. I think I was in the middle of it and it was in the -- it was in the living or dining area somewhere, --
Q  All right.
A  -- because I had been reading it.
Q  So you didn't just start it that night?
A  I don't think so.
Q  Did you finish it that night?
A  Right.
Q  Okay, what did you do with it after you finished it?
A  I don't remember, probably put it on the coffee table.
Q  Were you lying supine at the time?
A  When I laid it on the coffee table?
Q  Right.
A  I have no idea.
Q  When you finished it?
A  I have no idea.
Q  Okay, so you -- when you --
A  I would doubt that I was lying supine. I normally didn't read lying down flat. I normally read sitting up with my feet up on the table.
Q  Were you wearing your glasses that night while you were reading?
A  Most likely.
Q  Do you have any recollection of wearing them that night?
A  No.
Q  Would you have had to have worn them while you were reading?
A  No.
Q  You didn't need your glasses to read?
A  No, I still don't.
Q  So you think you probably put your book on the coffee table?
A  Right, or the table which would be approximately here at the end of the couch. (indicating)
Q  But it would have been somewhere in this area in the living room?
A  Right.
Q  Now, when you carried Kristen back to her room, what position was she in when you left that room?
A  She just seemed to be, generally speaking -- you know -- sort of on her back.
Q  Okay, well, you say sort of on her back. Was she flat on her back or leaning one way or the other?
A  Well, she could have been -- she could have been rolled a little bit to one side, but I really -- it seems to me that she was on her back.
Q  Did you tuck her in that last time?
A  I'm sure I pulled the blankets up, at least, but she slept hot like I did. She was always kicking them off.
Q  But you did -- you feel like you pulled some of the covers up?
A  Right, probably pulled the cover up, right.
Q  Do you specifically recall doing that, or are you just saying you probably did it?
A  I just said I probably did it.
Q  What is your specific recollection?
A  Really, just bringing her back into the room and putting her in bed.
Q  Did you ever hear Kristen's voice that night after the people you described came in? Did you hear Kristy at all?
A  No.
Q  Just Kimberly and your wife?
A  Right.
Q  Now the female -- or allegedly a female -- now, we're assuming, of course, it's a female according to your testimony, because you could see long blonde hair and you could recognize a female voice?
A  Right.
Q  In what manner was she saying, "acid is groovy, kill the pigs"?
A  Really, just in a monotone. It didn't seem very loud.
Q  In a monotone?
A  Right.
Q  She didn't raise her voice one way or the other?
A  Didn't seem to be. I was contrasting -- really, when I say a monotone -- because the shrillness of what seemed like very loud screaming to me was in contrast.
Q  Right.
A  And I just sort of heard this intermittently, you know.
Q  Okay, at what speed was she speaking, expressing these words?
A  Oh, "acid is groovy, kill the pigs."
Q  In that manner?
A  Unh-hunh (yes).
Q  At that speed?
A  Well, I speak a little faster than most people.
Q  Well, if you will by your own use of your voice, just state it at this time --
A  Yes.
Q  -- at the speed that she stated if you can recall that?
A  Acid is groovy. Without a long break, and then, kill the pigs.
Q  Okay, would she say one right after the other or would there be a pause?
A  I heard it a couple of times. Acid is groovy, kill the pigs. Acid is groovy -- you know -- like that.
Q  All right, now, when you were checking your wife and your two girls, after you regained consciousness, according to your testimony, in the hallway, you say you checked their pulses?
A  Right.
Q  Did -- now, I recall somewhere in the past that you referred to three types of pulses?
A  Right.
Q  And that you used this method on all three of them?
A  Yeah, but that's -- that's really in reconstruction. I remember checking pulses a lot -- you know -- a normal way to check a pulse in an emergency is to check a carotid which is in the neck or a femoral which is in the groin. And then if you don't feel one, you can try the -- you know -- the wrist.
    I remember specifically picking up Colette's wrist at one time, and it seems as though I checked the other -- you know -- the kids also that way.
    But what you're really concerned with is the carotid or the femoral, because you can feel it a lot easier.
Q  All right, so with regard to all three of them, did you try both the carotid and the femoral?
A  I would say, yes.
Q  Do you recall that?
A  Yes, but you gotta understand, Mr. Stroud, that it's a whole jumble of thoughts and feelings and then you try to sort it out, and reconstruct it and it seemed like that when I was at Kimberly's bedside that I definitely checked her -- it would be her right femoral, her right wrist --
Q  All right.
A  -- and probably her carotid.
Q  Okay.
A  And Kristy -- I don't know definitely if I ever checked Kristy's femoral. I'm not sure of that, but it seems like I must have checked her carotid. I must have checked her femoral because the -- her wrist it would be very hard to feel a pulse, even a normal pulse.
Q  Why would you check for both a carotid and femoral? Would there be one when there's not another?
A  Usually not, but when you don't feel one, the first thing you do is check another. Not in a young person. In an old person you can lose one if not two.
Q  So that's medical procedure to check as many places as you can for a pulse if you don't feel one in the first place, is to go to another place?
A  Well, given everything, which was -- if I was a doctor, not in the situation, walking in, finding someone, I would probably just check one and then start mouth to mouth.
Q  Right.
A  Which may well be just what happened. See, that's the problem with reconstructing and making it sound like it's black and white.
Q  Right.
A  And then when you see air -- you know -- bubbling, then I may have checked another pulse, and said, Jesus, what do I do now?
Q  All right, now, when you say you went to the back door, the utility door itself -- the inner door itself was open, and the screen door was open, is that right?
A  It seemed to be open. I don't thinnk I even had to push it to look outside. That's why I say that. It just seems like the back door was open, and I was standing there and I was looking around, and it was very quiet.
Q  All right, did you stick your head outside the door?
A  Yeah, I think I did. I think I got that far.
Q  How about the rest of your body?
A  I don't think I was ever on the back stoop. I think I just leaned out the back door.
Q  How long would you be there at the back door, would you say?
A  Oh, seconds. Five or ten seconds.
Q  Five or ten seconds?
A  Right.
Q  Time enough to look out?
A  Right.
Q  Did you hear anything?
A  No.
Q  Or see anything?
A  No.
Q  Now, during the time that these people were in the house there, according to your testimony, did any of them ever say -- did any of the men ever say anything?
A  I never heard anything.
Q  All right.
A  I never heard anything.
Q  Did they grunt or moan or do anything like that?
A  No.
Q  You heard no noise from any of them?
A  They were not shrieking in contrast to what Colonel Kriwanek said in the newspapers.
Q  So as far as any -- as far as any other of the four of them, the only utterance you heard was what you described coming from the girl, a monotone --
A  Right.
Q  -- from the girl?
A  That's right.
Q  But you heard no grunt or verbalizing or groan or anything from any of the three men?
A  I don't believe so.
Q  All right.
A  The only -- the only confusion could arise if during the struggle that some of the -- you know -- those words were not being said by the famel, but I always have been under the assumption that was a feminine voice I was listening to.
Q  So you don't recall a male voice?
A  No, I don't recall a male voice.
Q  Now, somewhere I have read that after -- after you were released from the hospital you borrowed a pistol from somebody?
A  That's right.
Q  Who did you borrow it from?
A  Ron Harrison.
Q  Ron Harrison. What kind of pistol was it?
A  Nine millimeter, I believe it was.
Q  Nine millimeter?
A  Automatic.
Q  Was it so it would have had a magazine?
A  Right.
Q  Okay, how long did you keep that gun or do you still have it?
A  No, after -- after I was locked up in the BOQ, on April 6, a couple of days later, I, through my lawyers I think, got it back to him.
    I thought it wasn't appropriate since they were searching my room occasionally when I left it for a meal.
    I thought it wasn't appropriate they find a gun that wasn't mine, so I gave it back to Harrison.
Q  You mean at the time they placed you in custody they didn't search the room for a gun?
A  I don't know, but it was there. It was under my pillow.
Q  Did they ever ask you if you had a gun?
A  No.
Q  And even while you were under house arrest?
A  No, I presumed it was because they kept searching my room when I went to meals.
Q  So, you turned the gun over to your lawyer, didn't you?
A  I don't know if I returned it to my lawyers, or if at a meal I met Harrison and gave it to him.
    But I had it in my custody until like the tenth or eleventh of -- you know -- thinking back, it was hilarious. Here I was being guarded, and they leave a loaded pistol under my pillow.
Q  All right, that's where you kept the pistol, under your pillow, loaded?
A  Unh-hunh (yes).
Q  Why did you have the pistol?
A  For protection.
Q  From whom or what?
A  From the people who were in the house that night, I presume, because I couldn't figure out who it was or why they'd want to do it.
Q  Okay. All right, I have just got a couple more. So, if you'll bear with me.
    The light that was on in the kitchen, how many lights were there in the kitchen if you recall?
A  Two or three, two I know of. I think one was a ceiling light, and one was a little light next to the refrigerator.
Q  Which light was on that night?
A  I don't recall.
Q  You don't recall which light?
A  No, either one could be left on -- you know.
Q  Do you have any idea why these four people that you have described in your testimony would have come in and attacked you?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Now, there -- there was some statement at some time that you made at the hospital, that there was a Brady, or somebody that --
A  Badger.
Q  Badger. Badger, that's right.
A  I just remembered.
Q  That you had -- that had tried to get out of the service. He was a drug abuser or drug user, and he tried to get out of the service, and you talked to him?
A  He was trying to get out of the service. You know -- I wasn't trying to get him out of the service.
Q  No, but he was trying to get out?
A  Right.
Q  When did you last talk with him before this?
A  I don't remember. It was reasonably close to this episode, a week or two.
Q  All right, how did you come to have contact with him?
A  I don't recall how it initially happened. But he -- I ended up counseling him at my group surgeon's office.
Q  You don't know how you came to counsel him?
A  I don't remember.
Q  Was that a part of your duties?
A  Sure.
Q  It was?
A  Yeah, right. Oh, I thought you meant the specific incident. I don't know -- you know I ended up counseling him or talking with him about his drug abuse problem.
Q  All right, and he was trying to get out of the service, using drugs as a reason?
A  Well, he was using drugs. The question is, you know, was he sort of an unsalvageable type individual? Was it for the good of the service to get rid of him, or was he to be punished for his drug abuse, or was he going to be rehabilitated, or whatever?
Q  All right, did he get mad at you about something?
A  Oh, I don't think so. Not really.
Q  Ah --
A  But he --
Q  Did you do something to prevent him -- or did you tell him you were going to do something to prevent him from getting out of the service?
A  I don't -- I don't recall -- you know -- in the course of counseling dopers, they're all alike after a while. I mean, they're all jerks, it seems to me.
Q  Okay, now, you say surgical gloves -- you brought surgical gloves home, as I recall your testimony, were under the sink in the kitchen?
A  Well, I know were they were because of the reports, but I always -- I had assumed they were either there or in the -- like in the hallway closet, but then since then, I've been told many times that they were under the sink, there was a box of gloves.
Q  Well, what recollection do you have as to where they are other than either one -- did you ever see the surgical gloves? Did you ever have to get a pair out? You say you used them to wash dishes?
A  Yeah, occasionally and usually they'd be under the sink in a box.
Q  Did you ever get any out of the hall closet?
A  Sure. Out of the hall closet?
Q  Right.
A  I don't remember specifically if I got them out or the box was there, and I was shifting -- you know -- I don't remember.
Q  Well, as far as you know, you just had one box?
A  Right.
Q  And it would have been either in the hallway closet or under the sink?
A  Right.
Q  Your last recollection was it was under the sink?
A  Right, that's correct. Right.
Q  And the gloves, were they in a sterile package of some kind?
A  Right, each pair of gloves are wrapped individually.
Q  And were there any loose gloves around the house that you were aware of?
A  Yes.
Q  Where?
A  There was the dishwashing gloves; probably of two kinds. Probably of the yellow -- no, not probably. There was a pair of yellow rubber gloves in the kitchen. And there was a pair of surgical gloves.
Q  In the kitchen?
A  In the kitchen.
Q  Where in the kitchen?
A  Probably on the sink.
Q  Okay, where?
A  Probably right behind the faucet as a matter of fact.
Q  Do you recall there being -- but you do recall there being a loose pair in the kitchen that night?
A  Right, right, and there was -- and this I say because it was usually so. There was usually a -- other pairs of gloves like in the utility room which also really functioned as a laundry room.
    And it was on top of the pile of laundry or on top of either the washer or dryer, whichever one we had there. We had the other one in the kitchen.
Q  Why would there be a pair in the utility room? Do you know?
A  I don't know. Colette used to use them -- I guess to hang -- when she was doing things -- washing windows and stuff. Oh, yeah, that's what it was. It was like for washing -- like for Windex and stuff, or Fantastik when she was cleaning.
Q  Well, was that stuff, Fantastik and the cleaning equipment, and all that, was that kept in the utility room?
    Or was it kept under the sink, in the kitchen, or in the hall closet, or where was it kept?
A  I don't know. I would presume most of it was in the kitchen.
Q  But you can recall a loose pair of gloves back in the utility room, either on top of some clothes or on top of the washer? Or dryer?
A  No, I cannot recall them being there that night, but that was not an infrequent occurrence. And when it was put to me later, that's kind of like a reconstruction again.
    I don't recall seeing them, but it's a conceivable thing, and actually it's very possible, because there usually were an extra pair lying around.
Q  When you used surgical gloves to wash dishes with, could you use them again?
A  Sure. Now, that depends on which kind you get. Some you can and some you can't.
Q  Well, what about these kinds?
A  Well, sir, them being there on the sink. They could be reused.
Q  Why can you use some again, and some you can't?
A  Some types of surgical gloves are very easy -- they rip very easy just by putting them on.
Q  Oh, you're talking about whether or not they've been ripped. If they're still in one piece and don't have any holes in them, you can use them again?
A  No, that doesn't exactly -- that's true, also, but what I really meant was that different brand names rip easier than others.
Q  I see. Okay, now, I recall you saying something about a cat, but I -- refresh my recollection.
    Was the cat in the house that night?
A  I don't know.
Q  Did you feed the cat that night?
A  I had nothing to do with the cat.
Q  Whose responsibility was the cat?
A  The kids' and Colette.
Q  And if the cat would -- the cat would generally stay in at night or outside?
A  Either way. It was gone for days at a time sometimes.
Q  How did y'all come to acquire the cat?
A  I don't remember. I think the cat just came there.
    Just came over -- I think Kristy came home carrying the cat one day.
Q  How long had you had the cat?
A  Not too long. A couple of weeks or a month. Couple of months. I wasn't a cat lover. I really had nothing to do with the cat.
Q  Well, when the cat was in the house, wouldn't the cat come around and rub against your leg and all that stuff?
A  No. Yes, it would. Sure it would, occasionally, sure.
Q  But do you have any recollection of that occurring that night?
A  No.
Q  Now, do you remember CID agent Connolly?
A  I do not.
Q  You do not have a recollection of him?
A  Well, I've met him now. Now I know what he looks like and how he thinks.
Q  Did he testify at the Article 32, Connolly?
A  I don't believe Connolly testified.
Q  Okay, do you recall talking to Connolly in the hospital or anywhere about this?
A  No.
Q  Did the stool that you were telling me about earlier that I think you might have had at that time, where was that stool normally kept?
A  I think there was a -- a -- if I'm remembering right, there was another chair facing -- well, we've already marked it as a matter of fact. No, we haven't.
    I think there was another chair right here. I'm not sure, facing in.
Q  Was it a footstool thing?
A  A footstool at the end of the chair, black.
Q  Black patent leather?
A  Right.
Q  How about describing it? Was it on legs or was it just round and went to the floor?
A  No, it was on legs. It was on four legs, and it was at an angle, because it followed the same angle -- I think up -- of the -- of the chair, I believe.
Q  Okay, was it square?
A  Yes.
Q  Rectangular?
A  I think it was square.

MR. STROUD:  Okay, I have no further questions.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I have just a couple, Dr. MacDonald.

Q  When you saw this disaster that had befallen your family and yourself, was it your first thought to call Colonel Kane or to --
A  (Shakes head negatively)
Q  -- or to place a call to the operator?
A  To call Colonel Kane?
Q  Yeah?
A  No, sir.
Q  You did know his phone number, didn't you?
A  Colonel Kane?
Q  Yes.
A  No.
Q  He is your -- he was your commanding officer?
A  Yes, but I wouldn't know his phone number.
Q  During the course of the time from when you found yourself lying next to Colette, did you at any time go fetch your glasses and put them on?
A  Not that I recall.
Q  So, you were walking around without your glasses on?
A  Right.
Q  And everything you saw that evening from the time you first observed these people, you saw with your normal vision, not corrected by any glasses?
A  Right.
Q  One of the grand jurors has given me a note and has two questions.
    When you went to sleep on the couch, why didn't you turn out the kitchen light?
A  I was just -- it was routine procedure -- you know -- it doesn't bother me at all.
    And -- you know -- in case, like Kristy got up and padded around or something.
Q  And when you gave Kristy her bottle, the question is, why didn't you put her in her own bed at that time?
A  I did.
Q  Yeah, you gave her the bottle in her bed?
A  Right.
Q  And as I recall having given her the bottle in her bed, you either left her there and she went by herself --
A  (Interposing) Oh, I see.
Q  -- to the master bedroom --
A  Right.
Q  -- and crawled in with Colette?
A  Right.
Q  Or I think you have testified you may have taken her there?
A  That's right.
Q  Because she wanted some company?
A  That's right. That would be in reference to what we would have been discussing when she woke up that Mr. Stroud was asking me before.
    If we had that conversation and she said, I don't want to sleep alone, I may have picked her up and put her in bed, but my best recollection at this point, and what I really think happened, I left her in her own bed with her bottle and she went in there by herself.
Q  Now, Mr. Stroud mentioned Connolly, and you said you knew him, but you didn't recall him visiting you in the hospital, and you said he didn't testify at the Article 32. Now, how do you know that?
A  Oh, he was -- you know -- I was in the CID office several times trying to find out what was going on, give them information and I met him on -- I believe on some of those visits, and there was one bizarre episode where they claimed that there was a stolen .38 and fifty rounds of ammunition somewhere in my BOQ. And so every room in the BOQ was searched, but my room was searched by Shaw and Ivory.
    And I think Mr. Connolly was at the door, and they introduced me to him then, or something like that.
Q  Well, the only pending thing that I have is my request for the notes, and the cushions; the cushions if you can identify them among your possessions.
A  Okay.
Q  And I take it --
A  Sir, I honestly don't mind sending you that cushion. I really think it's -- I don't even know if it's really the same cushion. I doubt very much if it will be the same cushion. I think --
Q  Well, if it's possible that it is the same cushion, will you make that available to us with the notes?
A  Surely.
Q  And I think that that disposes of all our questions, and I wish if you would like to make some brief statement to the grand jury, is there anything we forgot to ask you, that you feel we should know, some specific item of information, you feel would be helpful, would you?
A  Yes, sir; first, are these the originals that I gave you?
Q  Yes, sir, I'm returning to you the articles that you gave me yesterday that you requested be returned to you.
    I must say for the record now, I'm giving back MacDonald Exhibits 1, 2, 3, of August 15, '74.
A  Thank you.
Q  And MacDonald exhibit 5, 6 and 7 -- no, 4, 5, 6 and 7 of August 15, 1974. I have a -- I'm sorry. I didn't cover all the numbers. Let's do it right. They're not in sequence.
    4, 5, 6, 7 and 8, of August 15, 1974. Is this one of the exhibits you wanted us to return?
A  No, you can have that.
Q  And this is one of ours?
A  Right. This was one you could keep also if you like.
Q  All right, so I'm returning one through seven.
A  Correct.
Q  Of August 15, 1974.
A  All right, thank you.

DR. MacDONALD:  What I really have is not a statement. I just have some notes that I've been jotting down from all the questioning.
    If I could just go over some points that seem to me are left unclear, if that's okay.
    I just wanted to repeat our attitude toward locks -- you know -- we've had a lot of specific questions about locks. We never worried about it or even thought about it. If we thought about it, we went and locked the door. But it wasn't a big deal.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  All right.

DR. MacDONALD:  I'd like to reiterate something that's very interesting to myself at this point.
    Despite the fact that allegedly, and the CID agents are going to come here and testify that they were investigating other people, I never saw a photo or a line-up of anyone, despite their claims to me and their statements under oath that they had people in custody.
    Now, it's really bizarre to me that they would do an investigation and investigate thirty-five hundred people, and detain people, and never show me one single photograph of anyone.
    That's a very unusual way to solve a crime, it seems.
    I'd like to say that I don't -- I don't want to undergo a psychiatric examination. Let me say that very bluntly.
    I will do it if the grand jury feels it's needed, but I really hope that they'll put some thought to it, and that they'll see the other evidence and that they'll decide if it's needed.
    If it's needed then I'll do it. But I don't -- I don't want to discuss this again for another week with another team.
    I'm sure it's going to occur to the grand jury, if what I'm saying is true, how did this incredible sort of prosecution ever get going? And I'd just like one sentence to sort of my theory, if I'm allowed that.
    It just seems to me that from what Mr. Grebner has said under oath, and from what Mr. Shaw and Ivory say, especially in these three depositions, that we've given you, that what they did was, make very, very critical errors on the morning of the 17th, never check them, have the interview with me, six weeks later, and from that point on they were set up sort of for a prosecution.
    It sounds absurd. Sounds absolutely ridiculous. But Mr. Grebner has testified under oath that he walked in the house, that he made a decision, that the living room was staged, and we asked him why, and he said because of the flower pot.
    All he had to do was ask an MP. All he had to do was line up the MPs and say, has anyone seen anyone touch anything?
    He never did it.
    The first time the MPs were questioned was six months later.
    Now, that's unbelievable police work.
    So -- you know -- to come to a rational theory as to why what I am saying may be true or may not be true, how could the CID -- why would the CID do this to Captain MacDonald, essentially?
    It wasn't any malevolent sort of thing with a nasty colonel in the background to ride down Captain MacDonald.
    It was initially stupid, mistakes made. But then, they acted on those mistakes. They never checked them, and they -- then they acted on these mistakes.
    One of them was the flower pot. I mean if they think I staged a scene and dumped out a flower pot, and then stood the flower pot up, that's unbelievable reasoning.
    And second of all, apparently one of their big things is that this table is top-heavy, and when you kick it over, it lands with the legs up in the air.
    And they testified that they conducted this great experiment wherein every time they walked by it for weeks, they all kicked it, or they pushed it, or they hit it in some way. And apparently every time, in excess of thirty, it would turn legs up in the air.
    So Colonel Rock walked into the room, and he testified under oath, and he kicked it over once and it hit the rocking chair and it stayed on its side the way it is in the photographs.
    It seems to me that that is a rather unbelievable sequence of -- what I'm trying to say, sir, is that that crime scene that morning, was destroyed.
    The -- they take a wheel stretcher with me on it, struggling, and wheel it down here, and out here. They then take photographs -- or allegedly take photographs, because they showed me two different photographs, some with the red cloth in it and some with the red cloth out of it, and state to me that I staged the crime scene because I couldn't have had that struggle because the red cloth was there and it had no blood on it, or something like that.
    Well, I wonder how they got the wheel stretcher down the hallway, without someone moving that or putting it back there.
    They also never bothered to ask the doctor if they had moved anyone, because -- because to -- apparently to them very important fibers wound up under the body of my wife. Fibers that they say belonged to my pajama top. Well, apparently we're never going to know if they could've belonged to my pajama bottoms, either.
    But the fact is that they never asked the doctor, and the doctor stated that he picked her up and looked at her back, and that the cloth could have fallen off her onto the floor at that point.
    In addition, I moved her.
    Apparently, they failed to take that into consideration.
    When -- when on July 9, my lawyers and Colonel Rock and all the guards and all the CID went to the house, Colonel Rock would not allow the table tip -- you know -- to be repeated in -- you know -- in the view of this maze of people.
    He apparently went back with the CID at another time and did it by himself.
    But my lawyer leaned over and just looked at the chair, and saw nicks in the chair and he pointed it out.
    Apparently it never occurred to the CID that maybe the chair was in the way, or even that there may have been a person on the other side of the table, or a leg, or something like that.
    I suggest that if -- you know -- discrepancies or stories or whatever that you think is important is important, you ought to listen to the best available evidence, and that to me would be a tape of that stupid CID interview. And see what my state of mind was on April 6.
    See how these CID agents questioned me. See what their state of mind was, incidentally. If you read it, it sounds to me like there's -- well, I have a lot of -- you know -- emotional remembrances of that day.
    And it seems to me the grand jury should listen to the best evidence. Let them listen to me talk to them April 6.
    It was the first time I'd ever talked about it. Sergeant Duffy, an MP, came to the Article 32 hearing and testified he walked in the room and the drawers were open and clothing was hanging out as though they had been ransacked. Apparently the photographs don't show that. I've never seen the photographs of the bedrooms, but the point is, the CID sort of neglects to mention all these things. When they say that there were no perpetrators in the house; or as they like to say, alien beings.
    That's the most absurd reasoning -- look, I'm here, obviously defending myself, so what weight does my word carry?
    But to say that they found no evidence, of other people in that house, when they had the back door open and the front door open, both doors open, having people walking in and out at random, with no guard at Kimmy's room and no guard at Kris's room, and no guard at the master bedroom, preserving the crime scene, all you have to do is read Lieutenant Paulk's testimony.
    He had no idea how many men he had under control. He didn't know their names. He didn't give them any orders, except, don't touch anything.
    That's all he said. He didn't station guards at the door. There were unknown numbers of people including someone in dungarees walking through that house who sat on the couch.
    To reconstruct that initial hour, apparently after they arrived is going to be impossible. But I suggest to you, sir, that that doesn't make me guilty of homicide.
    Then, I think we already mentioned a note that I wrote yesterday, that apparently somebody by the name of Marse [sic; Morris], testified that Specialist Mica dragged me five or six feet towards the doorway.
    Apparently, according to Mr. Shaw, brilliant testimony, there are some critical discrepancies and blood stains or something in that area.
    And it just seems unusual to me that the CID would make a lot out of some blood stains which Mr. Shaw has told us were five to seven in number with the largest being as big as a quarter in that house, when my remembrances of that house was that the whole house was covered with blood.
    And it seems to me when they picked me up and put me on a stretcher and take me down the hall, and then bring another stretcher in the hall for the kids and whatnot, before these critical spots are identified and taken care of by a chemist, who had handled one prior case, which consisted of two blood drops on a door in an armed robbery, you know, to then incriminate me on that basis is absolutely absurd.
    I find it really insane, actually, at this point in my life.
    You asked me about the statement of fifty photographs; fifty fingerprints that I said in that information sheet were destroyed.
    Well, I went back and looked. And I really can't make it out. The best I can make out that Sergeant stated under oath, and you really can't make out what he says, but the best that he said was that he had to re-photograph because of a loss of film.
    Forty-four fingerprints and seven or ten palm prints. He said seven at one point and then later he said ten.
    So, that's over fifty. So for the first time in my life, I understated.
    But, the point is that that's how much film was destroyed and I can't find out from reading the record how many of those that he had to re-photograph were destroyed by the tape.
    But apparently we have a significant number of fingerprints including fingerprints on the door leading into the house to the utility room that were destroyed.
    Now, I don't know if that's obstruction of justice, but it sure seems like a lot of incompetence in the Army. They're guilty of something for that.
    And I know, because I was in the Army.
    Mr. Grebner, when he handed me back my wallet, he later testified in almost exactly the same words. Stated that the man in the house in the blue jeans was a medic.
    We asked him how he knew he was a medic. He said, well, he had to be a medic.
    We asked him has he ever seen a medic in blue jeans. He said, no, but that night the medic was in blue jeans.
    And he assumed that when the medic walked out through the crime scene, that that was the medic in blue jeans.
    Seems to me he should have said, hey, you, what're you doing in here? "How come you're out of uniform", if in fact it was a medic.
    The photographs -- the same photographs that are alleged -- you know -- that are allegedly or probably being used to incriminate me again here, I'm not -- I'm just railing against the system, sir -- are the same photographs that I've seen several copies of, with different things in them.
    We see photographs with my wallet in it. Then my wallet was stolen. We see photographs with things on the end of the couch; other photographs with things not on the end of the couch.
    I don't think the CID has any idea where that red robe was.
    I suggest, also, really just in response to this, because I think this is -- you know -- this is reasonably good, but I really think a visit to the house would be better.
    That's a small house -- you know -- I saw four people there, but I later saw ten or twelve running around bumping into things, and I'd like to see what evidence that the CID has that those ten or twelve people had -- you know -- were there.
    Sergeant Tevere testified he picked up the phone and made a phone call with his fingers on the phone.
    No evidence. No fingerprints. You know, I don't understand that.
    Well, I'm on the stand. I'm not going to --
    I suggest to you that I'm a little confused about the line of questioning about the girl in the BOQ. This is half a year later, after I've been through an unbelievable thing.
    And for someone to visit me in the BOQ, even if it occurred before my release from custody, which I don't think it did, is totally meaningless.
    I mean my life is -- was shattered like -- you know -- you can't conceive of what was going on in my mind or anything. And it doesn't make any sense.
    Lieutenant Paulk also testified he would have been the one to set up the roadblocks, or at least issued the orders. And he never issued an order for roadblocks.
    So despite Colonel Kriwanek's statement to the press the next day that the base was shut down, there never were roadblocks up.
    At least we, who have made an attempt, have never been able to find one single person to say there was a roadblock.
    We've found a lot of people to say there weren't roadblocks. We have heard comments like, well, there were roving roadblocks.
    What is a roving roadblock?
    But the CID and the -- and the -- Colonel Kriwanek, the head of the provost marshal, apparently implicated me because a group of assailants that were in my house that night were never found.
    I suggest that they weren't found because of that initial couple of hours, where unbelievably bad decisions were made.
    And I also suggest that later on when they got information about at least what sounds like good potential leads -- I'm not saying that the leads pan out or anything -- we -- you know -- tried to run down some of them -- you know -- back then, especially my military counsel, Jim Douthat, was running down a lot of leads, spending days and days doing this.
    I suggest, sir, that they didn't even question most of those people who talked to them.
    Mr. Grebner stated to us that one agent -- now, you've got to think about this for a second -- one agent interviewed five hundred people in two days.
    That is the most outlandish statement that could ever be made. Five hundred people in two days. He must have put them in an auditorium.
    And then he then testified by the way that he had to go see most of those people. Five hundred interviews in two days, and he excluded them. They had alibis.
    Apparently also part of the incriminating things about -- to make it look bad for me was that there was no grass or mud in the house.
    And I'd just like to tell the grand jury that the MPs -- it's really ludicrous, because the MPs that testified -- all we did was say to them, well, did you see any grass or mud later?
    And there were fifteen or twenty other people in the house, and they said, no. Except, for someone like Shaw, or a couple of other people said there were a couple of pieces of grass.
    And there were a couple of spots on the living room rug where people were coming in the front door at this time.
    But to say that -- well, I hope I'm getting my point across -- to say that I committed homicide and murdered my wife and kids on that is the most atrocious, insane reasoning. And for me to be here today again is crazy.
    This is insanity. The Army reinvestigation was done a year and a half ago. I haven't heard -- I've heard better questioning, I've heard legitimate questioning here, but I haven't heard anything that shouldn't have been asked, if not in the first investigation, in the second investigation.
    What did the second investigation consist of?
    The Army spending a year and a half, two million dollars and ten thousand pages -- three thousand pages or whatever it comes to, making sure that we can't prove that the CID made mistakes.
    That's what they did.
    The witnesses that they talked to that have since talked to me, said that they asked the exactly same questions as the first time around. Exactly.
    Did Jay MacDonald use drugs? Well, yeah, we've heard that. Did Jeff MacDonald use drugs? No, not to my knowledge. Thank you.
    They asked exactly the same questions. We started cooperating with them. When Kearns and Colonel Pruett said, will you help us?, we're really the good guys in the CID.
    We said, well, okay, but let's do it in a reasonable fashion. Let's have a court reporter so everyone has a record of what you guys are saying.
    You know, we put legitimate controls on them, and we realized when we reviewed the transcript that they weren't going anywhere. They were just doing the same damn thing again.
    You know, if you add it all up, it sounds terrific. They've had two Army investigations, under their words, the biggest investigation the Army has ever had. And they can't find the group of four assailants. So, therefore, I'm guilty.
    All I'd like to say, sir, is, you know, you haven't asked me. You know, I didn't murder my wife and my kids.
    And to the best of my knowledge, despite what the perverse Mr. Ivory thinks, Colette didn't either.
    And if you want me back in three months, call me back.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  All right, Dr. MacDonald, I appreciate your appearing before the grand jury, and answering all of our questions. And we will --

DR. MacDONALD:  Let -- let me just say one last sentence, -- I don't mean to keep you here all weekend -- let me just give you -- the last thing I say -- an example of the kind of things that these men allegedly investigated and obviously didn't investigate.
    The first -- you know all about, Helena Stoeckley. You can let the grand jury see the testimony about Helena Stoeckley. You can let them read Mr. Posey's testimony. See if that is at least a legitimate area for investigation.
    I'm not saying Posey knows something, and Helena Stoeckley is guilty. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that that indicates the type and the scope and the way that investigation went on.
    And it's going to be very difficult for twenty-three normal people to say, well, Jesus, how can we believe this guy when the Army and all those investigators and the FBI spent all this money and time, and they didn't find anything.
    For instance, Mrs. Daw -- a classic example -- Mrs. Daw, and I don't know the truth or falsity of this. I honestly know nothing about it except what I heard in the testimony room.
    Apparently, Mrs. Daw is a warrant officer's wife who lived on post at some time near this time, and this is really a paraphrase -- she had a daughter, Kimberly; she had a son, but apparently he was a young, blonde son, named Kris.
    Her husband is my height and weight and has blonde hair. He was a helicopter pilot or something like that, and he was in Viet Nam, or Thailand or Laos or something.
    And she testified that she was held prisoner for several days by a group of what she said were hippies, including a black male, a girl with wigs including a blonde wig and several Caucasian males.
    And as a matter of fact, she called the CID to her apartment to kick these people out.
    Well, after the assault on myself and my family, she stated, which I have no way of ascertaining anymore the veracity of, she stated she called the CID and told them this.
    They never came to interview her. They didn't think that was significant. She lived a couple of blocks away. She was held prisoner by a group of people who were on drugs, who told her they were going to come back and get her kids.
    The CID on the phone decided that was not an appropriate avenue to investigate this case, and this again is something -- just one of a lot of stories that are so bizarre of the handling of this case that it is beyond belief.
    So, I don't mean to harangue the grand jury. I honestly don't.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Well, we'll inquire into the matters, Dr. MacDonald, and I'm glad you mentioned them specifically.
    Now, I have one final question. Do you have any criticism concerning the way this matter has been handled before this grand jury? If so we would prefer to hear about it now rather than hear about it at a later date or read about it in the press.

DR. MacDONALD:  No, sir, I have no criticism.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Thank you very much. May Dr. MacDonald be excused, Mr. Foreman?

FOREMAN:  Mr. Woerheide, should I mention to Dr. MacDonald that the subpoena that brought him here this week --


FOREMAN:  -- will remain in --

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Yeah, in force.

FOREMAN:  -- force for the remainder of this hearing on this case.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Until we can make a final conclusion with respect to this matter, I request that you extend the subpoena so that we may recall him at a later date without issuing a further subpoena for him.

DR. MacDONALD:  Yes, sir, I understand that.

FOREMAN:  I would like for the grand jury to thank you very much for coming three thousand miles and appearing before us. And we appreciate your cooperation.
    Thank you very much.

DR. MacDONALD:  Thank you.


Webmaster note: 
The original stenographer's misspellings of Kaylan, Propst, MacGann, Fischer, Summers, Violette, Hestand, Connelly, Graebner, Park, Douthett, Kerns, Pruitt and Stokely were corrected to Kalin, Probst, McGann, Fisher, Somers, Violetti, Hiestand, Connolly, Grebner, Paulk, Douthat, Kearns, Pruett and Stoeckley, respectively, in this transcript.