Article 32 Hearing
Volume 16

September 8, 1970

Vernon Park

CPT SOMERS:  The government calls Mr. Vernon Park.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Who?

CPT SOMERS:  Vernon Park.

(Mr. Vernon Park was called as witness, was sworn and testified as follows.)

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Would you state your full name, please?
A  Vernon C. Park.
Q  What is your address, sir?
A  Pelham, North Carolina.
Q  What is your occupation?
A  I work for Dan River, Incorporated.
Q  And what was your occupation on the 17th of February 1970?
A  I was the Operations Sergeant for the Provost Marshal Investigative Section, Fort Bragg.
Q  And did you, on that occasion on the 17th, have occasion to interview several people in Corregidor Courts area?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And that was with respect to the MacDonald case?
A  Yes, sir, it was.
Q  Did you have an occasion to interview a Lieutenant and Mrs. Casper?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you tell us what happened, what was the result of that interview?
A  Yes, sir.  We introduced ourselves, showed our credentials, and talked to both the Lieutenant and his wife.  We asked them the same questions that we asked everyone.

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.

CPT BEALE:  That's right.  Mr. Park, just give the questions that you asked.

A  We asked them what time they went to bed; what time they got up; did they get up at any time during the night; did they hear anything during the night to wake them; and had they heard anything during the day; seen any strangers, any strange vehicles.
Q  And what was their response to those questions?
A  They told us they had both gone to bed about ten or ten-thirty.

MR. SEGAL:  Excuse me.  Might I object to say that I think we are entitled to have the answers of each individual?  There is no such thing as a group answer to this kind of situation, and we are entitled to have this witness distinguish what these persons said at that time.

Q  Would you identify what each, Lieutenant and Mrs. Casper, said to you?
A  Yes, sir.  We talked mainly to the Lieutenant.  He said he had gone to bed about ten-thirty.  He heard nothing.  He did not get up until he woke up at his regular waking hour, six or six-thirty the next morning.  He said that during the course of the evening, he had heard some running footsteps.  I asked him could he specifically give me the time.  He said something between seven and nine-thirty that evening, and that it belonged to some children in the neighborhood.  At that time we asked Mrs. Casper did she go to bed at the same time.  She said yes, she did.  She did not hear anything, nor did she get up at any time during the night.
Q  Did you identify yourself to the Caspers?
A  Yes, sir, I identified myself.  There was some local produced credentials which we carried at the time, and when we left I again stated my name and Sergeant Judson's name.  I told them if they could think of anything else to please let us know.  I gave them both of our phone numbers and told them if they could not remember the phone number they could contact either the military police desk sergeant or the criminal investigation division.
Q  Now what makes this incident stand out in your mind?  Is there anything that makes it stand out specifically?
A  Yes, sir, specifically, because two doors down Sergeant Judson introduced himself --
Q  Excuse me.  Who is Sergeant Judson?
A  He was my partner at the time of this -- and at the time he was asking the question part of the time and I was doing the writing, and then we swapped off.  At this particular time I was asking questioning and writing down the responses on the work sheet.  So when we went to the next house I stood back.  He knocked on the door and when he produced his credentials, the guy grabbed his arm through the screen door and tried to pull him in through the door.  And that's why we remember -- that's why I remember it because it stuck in our minds.  He acted a little scared.
Q  About how many people --

COL ROCK:  Excuse me.  You mean Lieutenant Casper did this?

WITNESS:  No, sir.  This was his neighbor, two doors down.

COL ROCK:  I'm sorry.  Go ahead.

Q  About how many people did you interview that day?
A  I would say during the course of that evening, we interviewed thirty-five or forty.
Q  And what area were you interviewing people in?  
A  Right, we had the area around the 334 North Daugherty down to Lucas.  When we started we went up the side of the road from Lucas, working back towards Mallonee Village, and we got everything on the even side of North Daugherty.  We had another team working on the odd side of the street.
Q  Were you aware of the description of the alleged assailants in the MacDonald case?
A  Yes, sir, I was aware of the same.  We asked people if they had specifically seen anyone who matched the description.  They said no, they had not seen anyone at all who matched any of the descriptions.

CPT SOMERS:  Your witness.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  I understand, Mr. Park, that next door to the Caspers a man grabbed your partner's arm in the screen door.  Is that correct?
A  No, sir, it was two doors down from the Caspers.
Q  Two doors?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And he pulled it through the screen door?
A  Yes, sir, he did.  
Q  And that was a rather extraordinary incident, I assume.
A  Yes, sir, that's why it stuck in our memory.
Q  That incident stuck in your memory?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You didn't have any more like that that particular day?
A  Not in that particular instance, but we had several similar.
Q  On that day?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  How many more did you have?
A  We had no one -- when I say similar -- we had no one who actually grabbed us in that way, but we were met with several weapons coming to the door.  People were generally in a state of panic.
Q  And that caused the conversation with Lieutenant and Mrs. Casper to stick in your mind with some great clarity because of the man two doors away who pulled your partner's arm?
A  Sir, let me explain.  At that time I was a policeman.  It was my job to remember things.  I am also a journalism major and I knew what he said because it was my job.  It stuck in my memory because I just happened to remember it.
Q  Well, now you said also, apparently stuck in your memory the questions you asked the people.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And I believe that when counsel for the government questioned you, you said that you asked the same questions of all people?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now my recollection is as follows: that you told us that you introduced yourself.  Am I correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  That you asked the people what time they went to bed.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What time they got up?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And whether they heard anything during the night?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And -- I'm sorry -- did they get up during the night and did they hear anything during the night?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Then later on you told us after you gave those as being the questions you put to people, said something about the description you gave people.  Is that right?
A  Sir --
Q  Now wait a minute.  Did you also add about five minutes later that you also told everyone that you wanted to know whether they saw anyone matching the description you had?
A  Right, sir, we asked them most of the time.  People knew why we were there.
Q  Wait -- wait.  You asked most of the time what?
A  We asked the people did they know of anyone who met the description.  Had they seen anyone walking around that would fit the description of the assailants that we had at that time.
Q  But you did not ask everyone that question, did you?
A  Sir --
Q  Now wait.  That's acceptable, yes or no, then you may explain.  Did you ask everyone that question?
A  No, sir, the reason being -- would you like to know the reason?
Q  Yes, you may explain now.
A  If people said no, I heard nothing; no, I did not get up; it was no use for us to ask.  If people might have gotten up for some reason then we would ask them if they had seen anyone.
Q  Now did you or did you not tell Mr. and Mrs. Casper the description of the people and ask whether they saw anyone who matched the description?
A  We told them because of the proximity of their house to the location of the scene.
Q  And who else did you tell in that particular block?
A  Everyone in that particular court.
Q  Everyone in that particular court.  I don't know how many buildings you are talking about.  How many homes, or how many homes or residences did you have occasion to give additional information to?
A  Sir, in that particular court, if I remember correctly, there are three main buildings.  In each building there are four apartments, and not all the buildings were occupied at that time, not everyone was home.  So in the twelve apartments, everyone who was home, we asked them.
Q  And how many were home?
A  I would think approximately eight of the twelve.
Q  Did anyone ever suggest to you that it might be relevant to this case to find out whether people had on other days, shortly before February 17th, seen individuals of that description that you had been given by Captain MacDonald?
A  Well, sir, as I said earlier, we asked had they seen any strangers, any strange vehicles in the area.  We did not confirm the time.  That left everyone open to say yes, I saw one two days ago, if they had.  We also told them to let us know if they remembered it.
Q  And did you also tell everyone to search their memories, whether they had seen anyone in recent days who fit the description?
A  Yes, sir, as we left we asked them if they did to please call us.
Q  And that was in that particular court?
A  That was everywhere.
Q  And you said to people if they recall anything to please call you.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And was that because it occurred to you or to those who were instructing you as to what to do, that people might recollect subsequently what they heard or seen on February 17th?
A  Sir, not really.  The reason I said that is it left everyone open for the fact that is if they remembered something they could call us.  At that particular time most people could have something right in front of them and they could not remember it because of their particular state of mind.
Q  Because they were frightened?
A  Well, some were, but most were not.
Q  Most were not?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  But you still thought it important to tell other persons your name and where you could be called if anything subsequently came to them.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir, I did that every time I --
Q  And that was for the purpose of should anyone recall at a later time some fact, that you wanted to have that information given to your headquarters?

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  He's answered this question.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  Now what time did you commence making these interviews on February 17th?
A  Sir, I'm not sure of the exact time because I took off early and went home to eat, and it was after the normal Army working day, after four-thirty because we wanted to be sure as many people were home as possible.  So I would think we started about five o'clock.
Q  And when did you return to your headquarters?
A  We stopped about seven or seven-fifteen because it was getting dark.
Q  And may I ask what the fact it was getting dark had to do with this ceasing of the investigation?
A  Well, for one thing, sir, it was pretty cold standing in the front yards, and for another thing I personally did not want to be out in that area after dark.
Q  Did you have any specific instructions from your supervisors or superiors as to how long you were supposed to be working that particular evening?
A  No, sir.  At that time I was the one who was giving the directions.
Q  And who had given you your original instructions?
A  I would guess that they had come from the CID investigators; however, I was told to get my people together and get them out to talk to people, and that's what I did.
Q  Now who told you that?
A  My supervisor, Mr. Weiss, probably did.  He would have been the one.  I don't know exactly who told me.
Q  Now when you finished, to whom did you report back to that evening at that time?
A  I took all my interviews work sheets back.  I typed up the reading file describing everything we had done, and I took the reading file describing everything we had done, and I took the reading file and the interviews work sheets to the CID office and laid them on the administrative desk.
Q  Now you say that to the best of your recollection this -- the actual field work, the leg work of going to each house took place between five or five-thirty p.m.?
A  That was only mine.  Now I was out those hours because I had all my people out all during the day.  I figured they needed a break.
Q  I understand that.  Now you were with a Sergeant Judson at that time.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you and he went back together, I assume?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now in that period of time you interviewed how many people?
A  I would say between thirty-five and forty.
Q  So how long did you spend on an average with each interview?
A  Now not very long, five to ten minutes at the most.
Q  Which, a portion of that time in the interview you spent giving them information about where to contact you later on.  Is that right?
A  Sir --
Q  Did you give that information?
A  As we left, about thirty seconds.
Q  Now you told them who you were. Is that right?  Your name.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And your organization or some way of locating you?
A  No, sir.  I only gave them at that particular time, since I had already introduced myself, was my name and the telephone number, and if they could not get me there to call the military police desk.
Q  And of course, if we were to say that you conducted as many as forty interviews in two hours -- strike that.  Do you have -- did you make up the written memorandum of the interview with the Caspers?
A  Sir, I did the writing on the work sheet.
Q  And do you have that with you, sir?
A  No, sir, I don't.

MR. SEGAL:  At this time I call upon the government, sir, to make available to us the interview which this witness has made reference to, and which he says he prepared and which he's testifying about.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, I have only one copy of this and it has been marked on the back information which is irrelevant to it.  I will be happy to provide this to the defense to use at this time; however, I doubt that you would want this introduced.

COL ROCK:  All right, we can substitute it later on.  I'd like to see it too after --

MR. SEGAL:  Please show it to the investigating officer.

COL ROCK:  No, go ahead and show it to him.

(The document was handed to counsel for the accused.)

(The document was then examined by the investigating officer and returned to counsel for the accused.)

Q  Mr. Park, have you seen the interview work sheet that was written up in regard to Lieutenant E. G. Casper?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When was the last time you saw that?
A  I saw it this morning.
Q  This morning?  Now would you say that I am correct in my mathematics when I tell you that if you did twenty interviews an hour, figuring you made two hours of work, and you did forty interviews at the maximum, that that would be three minutes per interview?  Do you agree with that mathematics?
A  That's close.
Q  And that you actually didn't consume three minutes on each interview because you had to go and travel from house to house.  Is that correct also?
A  Partially, yes, sir.
Q  Well, you did have to travel from apartment to apartment, from house to house?
A  Yes, sir, which is door to door.
Q  Door to door, except everybody wasn't home and every consecutive door, were they?
A  No, sir.
Q  And in all instances when you knocked and rang the bell, the doors did not open instantaneously, did they?
A  No, sir.
Q  There was the normal delay and sometimes longer and sometimes shorter.  Is that right?  A number of seconds were consumed on each house with the act of knocking on the door and waiting for that person to respond?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now does it appear any place on this interview work sheet that you prepared any reference to the fact that you interviewed Mrs. Casper?
A  Sir, when we filled out the interview work sheet --
Q  Excuse me, you may explain, but would you be good enough to tell me --
A  Let me -- I know why it does not have any reference to her.
Q  But you haven't told us, Mr. Park, whether or not if any reference to Mrs. Casper is on there.  Does it?
A  No, sir, it does not.
Q  All right.
A  The reason -- would you like to know why?
Q  If you'll let me ask the question I'll give you the chance.  Now, Mr. Park, is there some reason why Mrs. Casper's name does not appear?
A  Yes, sir, because when the husband was at home we used the husband's initials.  If the husband was TDY and not there we put the wife's full name.  That's so we could tell the difference.
Q  Isn't it a matter of fact that when you had a wife that was interviewed, you put down the military person's name, and where it said rank or title, you used -- you put the word wife or Mrs.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now in this case, it didn't make any reference to the fact there was even a Mrs. Casper who was there.  It just says Lieutenant.
A  Right, sir.  And if he had not been there then his wife's name would have been in there, and his initials and rank would have been in parenthesis.
Q  You would have had an indication of an interview with the wife rather than her husband.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now does anything appear in this interview work sheet about the children next door being responsible for the noises heard?
A  Yes, sir, if you'll read down at the bottom in the remarks section, the first word I believe is "not up," which means they did not get up during the night.  The second is "heard running steps" and the time says 7 to 9:30 and in parenthesis it says 1900 to 2130 hours.
Q  Now I ask you my question.  Is there anything at all in this interview work sheet to indicate that the noises heard, in the opinion of Lieutenant Casper, emanated from children that lived next door nearby?
A  No, sir, only that he told me and I put it in the reading file.
Q  But you didn't put it in the work sheet?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now what else did you put in the reading file that you did not put in the work sheet?
A  Everything that I did.  The work sheet was only a sketch for me to do my reading file.
Q  You mean you took information from people when you interviewed them at the door -- is that right -- and put it in the work sheet?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Then you went back to your office and wrote other things down on the reading file which does not appear on this work sheet?
A  Yes, sir, because that was only by reference.
Q  That's right.  In other words you were using this reference for the purpose of giving you facts which you would summarize in your reading file.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  But what you did was the opposite.  You expanded the reading file with summarized --
A  Sir --
Q  Now wait a minute.  Listen to my question, and then you can answer it.  What you did in Lieutenant Casper's episode was expand what he told you instead or reduce or summarize what he told you.  Is that right?
A  Right, sir.
Q  Are you sure that you didn't confuse Lieutenant Casper with somebody else?
A  No, sir, because the children happened to be running up and down the walk right when I was talking to him, sir.
Q  And that was so unusual you remember that, right?
A  For that particular temperature, yes, sir, it was, and he happened to say those are the children.
Q  And for that particular area, it wasn't unusual to see children up and down the walk, was it?
A  No, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I object.  I think he's answered the question in contest.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

MR. SEGAL:  If the investigating officer pleases, at this time we then ask for the full report of the interview with Lieutenant and Mrs. Casper that's been referred to by this witness which will be that portion of the reading file which purports to be the summary of the interview with Lieutenant and Mrs. Casper.

CPT SOMERS:  The government objects to that.

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, we cannot adequately cross-examine the witness in regard to an interview he took, if the full interview that is his full recollection made at the time is not available to us.
     The work sheet does not comport with all that he said here, but is explained by saying he put more down on this other sheet and we are entitled to explore that issue with this particular witness.  If not, we will never have any way of knowing what was recorded or reported to have been said by Mr. and Mrs. Casper, at least from the investigation standpoint.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, he has the witness here, he can ask the witness anything he pleases.  He also has the sheet which the witness said he made reference to.  I object to the production of the reading file.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Park, this morning before you came in to testify did you go back and read the reading file to refresh your memory?

WITNESS:  No, sir, because I would guess it has been destroyed.

CPT BEALE:  Is it the normal SOP that these reading files are destroyed?

WITNESS:  Well, sir, at the time I was usually the only one who kept an account of everything I did, and when I turned the stuff in, all we were interested in was interview work sheets.  Now I may have a copy of it somewhere at home, but it is not anything that we keep.

CPT BEALE:  Well, what were your instructions to your other investigators?  Were they to expand the form in the reading file statement, or were they to put everything down on their work sheets?

WITNESS:  Most of them read or wrote a reading file.  Usually the senior man in the team would write a reading file, which I would read and if anything needed to be brought forward I would take it to the CID.  But the only thing I usually turned in, or the only thing I turned in, was the interview work sheet which was what they wanted.

CPT BEALE:  They wanted the work sheets?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Then why did you not put down the information about the children on the work sheet, if you turned that into your superiors?

WITNESS:  Well, sir, when I put down as said on there "running footsteps from 7 to 9:30" I saw no reason to have to add it on because 7 to 9:30 at night was early in the evening.  We were interested in what had happened after midnight, so 7 to 9:30 really had no relevance.  When they said it was children running, then it was children running.

COL ROCK:  Why would you put the fact that children were running on the reading file report though if it wasn't of any significance?

WITNESS:  Well, sir, the defense has a little bit wrong idea about a reading file.  When I wrote a reading file it was almost like a diary.  I wrote every single thing I did only for my benefit, and that's why I added it in.  The reading file got no further than me most of the time.

COL ROCK:  Your recollection though of the events is accurate at this late date?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  I've -- if I may say so, when I was first contacted about this, I almost described the particular house they were talking about simply because the Lieutenant grabbing Judson's arm.  That's why I remembered it so vividly.  But also I believe -- well, I know -- that it was the only house who said they heard anything at all during the night, except one person said they heard a baby crying, and the next door neighbor said "Yes, my baby was crying about ten o'clock, until she was asleep at ten-thirty or eleven."

COL ROCK:  So the fact that someone heard something that evening was unusual, and even though it was not relevant you remember it?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, your request for this reading file is denied at this time, unless it is further shown that there is an additional relevance.

Q  Let me ask you this, Mr. Park.  How many other interviews did you expand on beside the one with Lieutenant Casper?
A  None, sir.
Q  None.
A  That's correct.
Q  That's the only one that you expanded on?
A  He was the only one who said he heard anything except the one with the baby crying and I did not put that in there.
Q  Why didn't you put that in since you knew that there were children in the killing at the MacDonald episode?
A  Well, the reason being the lady next door had said my baby was crying, and the particular area where this man was so far removed from the crime scene that he couldn't have heard if the baby had been crying.
Q  Mr. Park, you said you prepared this reading file in a diary fashion.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And that was for your own benefit, you said?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I don't quite understand what you mean that it was for your own benefit?
A  Sir, at the time I was Operations Sergeant.  I read everything that went through to the higher office.  Everything out of that office went through me.  As I said, I was a journalist before I came in the Army, and I just had a habit of writing down everything, so I wrote down everything for my own personal benefit, so I could go over it and see if there was something else I needed to look into later.
Q  That wasn't for the benefit of the investigation of the MacDonald case, was it?
A  No, sir, it was not, because I pointed out that particular incident to the chief investigator, and he said the time and I told him the time and he said we are only interested after midnight.
Q  No, no, what I am asking you is, if you knew that the interview work sheets were the documents that the people directly in charge of the investigation were using, why didn't you put down this information that it was children, and there was children next door, so they wouldn't go on a wild goose chase using your interview?
A  Sir, I explained it to them when I got back and they did not go on a wild goose chase, because I told them there were children who were running while I was there.  Had it not been, you may rest assured I would have put down that it was somebody they did not know.
Q  I beg your pardon?  You would have done --
A  If they had not identified the children as being the ones running up and down the street, then I would have so told the chief investigator because people do not always know the times when you are talking.
Q  And that's right.  People sometimes estimate much later when something actually occurred?
A  However --
Q  Wait a minute.  Isn't that true?
A  That's true sometimes, and sometimes much earlier.  But he was pretty sure of that because he knew he went to bed at ten-thirty.
Q  Now this is Lieutenant Casper you are talking about?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What did Mrs. Casper tell you she heard that night?
A  Mrs. Casper -- at the time I just asked her if she had anything to add and she said no, she didn't hear anything.
Q  And that's your recollection of what she said?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now I gather from what you are saying that almost all the information that was contained at the Casper's residence came from Lieutenant Casper?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And the only thing else that happened as far as Mrs. Casper is she was asked whether or not she had anything further to add.  Is that right?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And her answer was negative?
A  Her answer was no.
Q  That is negative, I assume?
A  Yes, sir, but she said specifically "no."
Q  You are quoting her?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now if I were to tell you that Mrs. Casper gave testimony in this proceeding where she told about substantial detailed information about noises heard, and not in the early evening, but late between 3 or 3:30 in the morning, would you say she would be in a better position to recall what she heard on February 17th than you are to repeat what you think she said?

CPT SOMERS:  Objection.  I think it calls for a supposition, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Just a second.

CPT SOMERS:  I think that's an incomprehensible question to begin with.

MR. SEGAL:  Mr. Park understands.  He's a journalist and he --

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase your question.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.

Q  Do you think the recollection of a person who -- the recollection of Mr. and Mrs. Casper as to what they heard or saw on the morning of February 17th is more likely to be better recalled by them than you are to recall their testimony through your notes?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to that question again.  I think it calls for a conclusion which he cannot make.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is sustained.

COL ROCK:  Please make your questions as simple and straightforward as possible.

Q  Mr. Park, let me ask you this.  Have you been compensated in any fashion for your appearance here in these proceedings by the government?
A  No, sir.
Q  Are your expenses being covered for your time and travel here?
A  They haven't been.
Q  Have you made arrangements with the government to pay your expenses for your time being here?
A  Not that I know of.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further, sir.  I would ask to have the government substitute another copy of the interview with Lieutenant Casper and have it marked as an accused exhibit in this proceeding.  I return the copy made available to us by Captain Somers with that request.

CPT SOMERS:  I intend to introduce a copy as a government exhibit, when I have one that is --

COL ROCK:  Request and answer so noted.  Is there any redirect by the government?

CPT SOMERS:  None, sir.

Question by COL ROCK:
Q  Mr. Park, when you went to the Casper's house did you enter the house?
A  No, sir.
Q  You did not?  Who came to the door?
A  Sir, I'm not sure.  I think she came first, but Mr. and Mrs. Casper stood in the screen door with the door slightly open.
Q  I see.
A  I did not go into the house.
Q  Now you directed your questions basically to whom?
A  Basically we directed them to Lieutenant Casper.
Q  Lieutenant Casper.  During your questioning of Lieutenant Casper, did Mrs. Casper attempt to interject or introduce any statements of her own?
A  Sometimes, sir, if we asked a specific question, he would say -- may I give an example?
Q  Please.
A  I asked him, "what time did you go to bed?"  He looked at her and said, "about ten-thirty?" and she shook her head and said, "yes, about ten-thirty."  But she did not offer anything and we did not ask her anything until we got ready to leave.
Q  And what was your question to Mrs. Casper once more?
A  We asked her if she had anything to add to what he had said, and we also asked her directly did she have occasion to get up during the night or wake up.
Q  Okay, now the first question you asked -- did she have anything to add -- what was her reply as you remember it?
A  As I remember, she said, "no."  Just one word, no.
Q  And what was your question to her?
A  Well, I asked her -- I'm not sure if it was next or the same -- I asked her, "did you wake up during the night" and then, "did you get up?"
Q  You asked her did she wake up.
A  Right, sir.
Q  What did she say?
A  She said, "no."
Q  What was your next question?
A  "Did you get up?"
Q  What did she say?
A  She said, "no" again, and, sir, I realize that was an redundant question, but we asked it of everybody.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions at the time.  Does either counsel?

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  No, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you wish this witness permanently excused?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Park, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You are excused, thank you.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

CPT SOMERS:  At this time, the government, sir, would request a tenminute recess.

COL ROCK:  The hearing will be recessed temporarily.

(The hearing recesses at 1028 hours, 8 September 1970.)