Article 32 Hearing
August 13, 1970
Scans of original transcript
(The hearing reconvened at 0900 hours, 13 August 1970.)
COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that all parties present at the recess are apparently in the hearing room. Proceed, counsel.
MR. SEGAL: Colonel Rock, there were two matters pertaining to yesterday's proceedings I would like to make some request on, one matter pertaining to today's proceedings. One I would like to ask at this time as to whether the government has available to it all copies -- copies of all statements that Jan Snyder made to any investigators who might -- if we may see that, to see if we have any need for them today.
COL ROCK: Can you respond to this, Captain Somers?
CPT SOMERS: I think I said before, sir, that there are no written statements. There is a mimeograph form which I will be able to provide sometime this morning.
COL ROCK: Fine, and please let us have that expeditiously when it does become available.
MR. SEGAL: Secondly, sir, in regard to the testimony of Doctor Sadoff yesterday, and the forthcoming examination that is being planned for Captain MacDonald at Walter Reed Hospital, it has occurred to us that it would be useful and desirable and very frequently the practice, to have Doctor Sadoff's testimony available, to include his conclusions, findings and observations, for the psychiatrists in Washington. For that reason, I would ask that perhaps you might direct the out-of-order transcription of just Doctor Sadoff's testimony so that could be available and sent forward to the authorities in Washington. My own experience in this matter has always been that psychiatrists like to have the observations of other doctors, because it gives them another vantage point to make comparisons, and I think that's certainly the -- I think that they would want to know there'd been an independent examination, so they might review their own findings in regard to what doctor saw him at a different time and place and a different situation.
COL ROCK: I will so order, with the caveat that these papers would be available to the individuals after the government has made its own investigation. In other words, that the government's investigation would not be the result of the consultation with Doctor Sadoff. This will be so ordered.
MR. SEGAL: Sir, at this time we are ready to proceed and call the next witness. In regard to this witness, he is a civilian person who has agreed to testify, even though we have no power to compel him to be here. He has repeatedly expressed to us great concern that he not have his name bandied about, released in any way, or spread out to the public. We have assured him on our part, in behalf of those civilian counsel and the accused and the military counsel, that we will absolutely honor that request. His wife is quite anxious that he not come here because her fear is that it might produce some repercussions, and there are even indications of the fact that repercussions have taken place, because it was known or suspected he might be coming here. I would ask also, sir, that you direct, although I am sure it will be a policy anyway, that all parties here honor the witness's request not to in any way cause his name to be released to any person except in the sense the investigators have to be directed to do anything, that they be likewise told not to needlessly in any way expose this person to the knowledge of civilians or other persons who do not absolutely have a need to know his name or anything about him.
COL ROCK: Sir, this is a closed hearing and to my knowledge the only information that has been released to anyone has been through your own efforts.
MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, I am just at this point suggesting that if the government would kindly recognize the problem and would advise its investigators to be cautious in regard to any making the identity of this person known, except as is absolutely necessary in their own investigative processes. It would be, I think, muchly appreciated and be reassuring to the witness if we could do that, sir.
COL ROCK: I am sure the government will adhere to that request. Proceed, please.
MR. SEGAL: Would you call Mr. Posey, please.
(William Edward Posey was called as a witness, was sworn, and testified as follows.)
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Posey, would you be good enough to state your full name and address for the record?
A William Edward Posey, 505 Myrtle Street.
Q Fayetteville, North Carolina?
A Fayetteville, North Carolina.
Q And your last name is spelled how?
Q Mr. Posey, where did you live in February of 1970?
A 1106 Clark Street, Apartment A in Haymount.
Q Now is Haymount an area in Fayetteville, or is that separate?
A It's an area in Fayetteville.
COL ROCK: 1106 Clark?
WITNESS: Clark Street, Apartment A.
Q What was your employment in February of 1970?
A I work for Bass Air conditioning.
Q How do you spell that?
Q And where is that located?
A Well, at that time their office was on the Boulevard; right now it is over by the Perulator Plant, but they still have the office on the Boulevard too.
Q Now do you know where you were during the early morning hours of 17 February 1970?
A I was home.
Q Were you sleeping?
A What time do you mean?
Q You tell us. Had you gone to bed that night at all?
Q About what time did you go to bed?
A I went to bed about eleven o'clock.
Q Now you are talking about 11 p.m. on the night of 16 February?
Q Did you have any occasion to become awakened or to awake on February 17th?
A Well, about -- sometime between a quarter to four and four-thirty, I didn't look at the time, exactly what time it was, but I started to go to the restroom. I heard a car next door whip in, you know, real fast. There was this --
MR. SEGAL: You'll have to try and talk just a little slower for purpose of both clarity, understanding what you are saying, and to enable the recorder to pick it up. You tend to talk a little rapidly. You say you went to the restroom?
A I was fixing to get up to go to the restroom, and all of a sudden I heard a car whip in. There was a lot of laughing and carrying on, so I walked around to my front door to see what was going on.
Q And may I ask you, where did you hear the sound of the car from -- was it from the street?
A From my bedroom I heard it, you know, pull into the driveway real fast.
Q That driveway was located between what properties?
A Right between my house and the girls that lived in the apartment right across the fence.
Q Are you referring to some girls that live in the adjoining building?
A No, no, it's -- you can look out -- their house is separate from mine. It was directly across from our front door.
Q And you say some girls. Do you know the occupants of the apartment?
A Well, I know them by, you know, just saying hello, and talking to them occasionally, but I mean I wasn't associated, real good friends, or anything.
Q Now what happened when you heard this sound of the car pulling into the driveway and the voices? By the way, can you describe what the voices were saying or how they sounded?
A No, they were just, you know, laughing, you know. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. I don't believe they were saying too much, really. Just laughing, cutting up, giggling a lot. This type of thing.
Q Giggling a lot?
Q Could you indicate this to approximately how many voices there appeared to be?
A Well, there was more than two, and there was more than two people in the car. It was -- it was a crowd.
Q Now as a result of hearing that particular noise or those sounds, what did you do?
A Well, I walked around to my front door to see what was going on, and I noticed that the lights were on in the apartment -- in their apartment and I looked over there and two of the girls were in there painting, and then I saw -- I looked up and I saw the car that was pulled in. It was a Mustang, and the one girl got out, and the girl I know --
Q Excuse me. You said two girls were in the apartment painting?
A Painting, yes.
Q Are you indicating that there were more than two occupants in that apartment?
A There were three.
Q And was the third occupant also female?
A They were all three females.
Q All right, now where was this third female?
A She was getting out of the car and walking into the house, and then the car pulled out and took off.
Q Now, what, if anything, did you observe about her at that time? Her appearance, dress.
A Well, the only thing that I noticed about her, at least, I noticed it was her, and she had something in her hand, but I -- I did not take note of what it was, but she walked kind of fast into her house. She didn't walk real fast, but faster than she usually walks.
Q Now what did that young lady look like at that time?
A She just looked like, you know, she didn't look any certain way. I didn't -- I just noticed it was her, because she didn't have a hat or anything like that on at that time. She had her -- she has brunette hair, and I guess it was down to her shoulders.
Q Now what, if anything, caused this episode to remain in your memory that caused you to pay any note to it?
A Well, I had to get up, you know, pretty early to go to work and Gene, the man I work with, we were headed to Southern Pines, going through Fort Bragg, and he told me that there had been a murder out there that night, you know, several people had been killed, and so, when he told me this, you know, and he said it was by a band of hippies, you know, and I knew -- it went through my mind then, you know, that she was out. It was unusual for her to be out that, roaming around that time of the night, and it just stayed in the back of my mind. I just let it go there.
Q All right now, would you describe for the investigating officer, the clothes or other paraphernalia that your neighbor wore, her normal habit, her normal wear?
A Well, like before --
CPT SOMERS: I object to that, as calling for a conclusion. We have no basis for his being able to draw.
MR. SEGAL: Well, if he wants to establish how long he's observed the person, I'll be glad to do that, although the government knows itself, but I'll be able to do so.
CPT BEALE: Establish it.
Q Let me back up, if I may, Mr. Posey. How long had you seen this gal around or known her, the one you are describing on this morning, that you saw getting out of the Mustang?
A I'd seen her, you know, every day, when I would come home from work, and a lot at night, and probably, I think, they had lived there for two or three months prior to that, and I think I'd seen her once or twice in Haymount, you know, before they ever moved there.
Q And how frequently did you see her on a given day? One occasion or more than one occasion?
A I'd say maybe twice a day.
Q Now can you tell us something about what the Haymount section of -- is or what kind of a community it is?
A It's where most of the hippies hang out.
Q And on the various occasions that you had seen this young lady before the morning of the 17th of February, would you describe, you know, what her normal wearing apparel was?
A Well, she had this purple outfit, you know, with the vest-type thing that she wore all the time. It was kind of silky, and she had a big old white floppy hat that she wore, and she had a pair of white boots that she wore a lot, and she use to -- I mean the hat was part of her because you very seldom, you know, when she went out she always had the hat with her. I mean very seldom did you see her without the hat, and on once or twice she had worn a blonde wig, you know, she had a blonde wig too, and she had worn it once or twice, but she didn't wear it too often, not real regular.
CPT SOMERS: I object to the testimony about the blonde wig, since that's obviously not wearing apparel.
MR. SEGAL: I agree it is not normal wearing apparel. That's exactly why it is relevant testimony. We will establish certain subsequent events relating to that -- the clothing and the hair.
CPT BEALE: The objection is overruled, Captain Somers.
Q Now, you said something about the fact that you had seen this floppy hat which she wore on more than one occasion?
A Yes, sir.
Q How often would you say that she wore or had that hat with her?
A Just about every time that she went out the door she had it.
Q And could you describe anything about that hat, other than the fact that you called it a floppy hat?
A Well, it was big, you know, it was kind of wide, you know, floppy, the type that flopped around -- around the ears, and the thing went around the front.
Q You mean the brim, you are referring to?
A Yeah, but you know, it hung down around the front.
Q Do you know what color it was?
A It was white.
Q Was she in the habit of also wearing the boots that you described?
A She didn't wear the boots that often. She usually went barefooted most of the time.
Q Did you ever see her in any other shoes, other than the boots?
A I seen her -- well, I've seen her, you know in sandals and stuff like this.
Q Now do you know whether any particular type of weather conditions or the time of year when she would wear the boots?
A Well, usually she'd wear the boots a lot of times when it was wet, or when she was going, you know, like to a party or something like this. When she worn a dress she would wear her boots.
Q Now, what was the weather conditions on that morning? Do you recall?
A It was fairly, you know, it was fairly cold.
Q And was there anything else that you observed about the weather at that time?
A Not that morning.
Q Now did you have any occasion to mention the episode at the time it happened to any other person, your observance of the girl coming into the driveway at that time of morning?
A Well, you know, they've done a lot of crazy things over there, but that was about as craziest thing I'd seen them, painting away at that time in the morning, so, I, you know, I got my wife up and I -- I brought her over to the front door to show her what was going on, and the only thing she -- she saw was when the car was backing up, I woke her up, she saw the car backing out, and I show her them over there painting the apartment at that time in the morning.
Q Had you ever seen that particular car there on any other occasion?
A Well, it -- I'd seen the Mustang there a lot of times, it was a blue one, but I can't remember if that was the color of that car that morning, but I know it was a Mustang because I remember the shape of the car and everything, but I didn't take note of what color it was.
Q Did you observe the persons who were in the Mustang that morning?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know whether there was one or more persons in it when it drove off?
A There was at least two in it when it drove off because they, you know, laughing and stuff.
Q Did they appear to you, from what you saw and what you heard, from the voices, that they were males or females?
A By their voices, by the way they were giggling, they were males.
Q Do you know what connection, if any, that young woman you've described with a floppy hat, has ever had with Fort Bragg, North Carolina?
A Her father was a Colonel in the Army, and --
Q Is he still a member of the Army?
A No, he's retired.
Q And did you ever meet her father?
A I met him on one occasion. Shortly after she left and he come looking for her. He was looking for her.
Q How old a young woman is she?
A I think she's somewhere in the neighborhood of around 18, she looks older than her actual age.
Q Now on the subsequent days, after February 17th, when Mrs. MacDonald -- when the MacDonald killing was out, did you observe or see anything about this young lady in regard, first of all, to her clothing?
A Well, I noticed that she quit wearing her hat. I didn't see her hat after that; she never wore her hat anymore after that at all.
Q And prior to February 17th, did you ever recall having seen her without that particular hat that she wore?
A Oh, I'd seen her, you know, a lot of times, without it, but most of the times she had it on.
Q And did you ever have occasion to discuss the fact that you didn't see her with it after February 17th?
CPT SOMERS: I object.
CPT BEALE: What is your basis?
CPT SOMERS: Hearsay.
MR. SEGAL: It is not offered for the truth or falsity of what she said but the observation and what was said that he acted on thereafter.
CPT BEALE: Overruled.
Q Now did you have any conversations with this young woman?
A Well, about a week or two after, a friend of hers who was a friend of mine, Paul Bowman, he was getting out of the Army, and I owed him some money for a telephone bill, and so he was, you know, over there with them, and so he was by the fence and I saw him. My wife and I were in the house and I went out to talk to him and my wife was standing on the porch. I started talking to him, and then we got on the subject about -- she said that the police had questioned her several times about it, and so he said that she needed an alibi, and then she walked up, you know, in the meantime, with the three of us standing there, and they were both on the other side of the fence, and so I said, "Well, I could be your alibi, because I saw your girlfriends painting in their apartment, and I saw you when you got out of the car that morning."
Q Did she, herself, ever say anything about an alibi on the morning of February 17th?
A Well, you know, you know, she -- she said that she had been questioned several times, that she was stoned out that night and that she didn't remember what she had done.
Q Let's break that down, first of all. Did she, in fact, indicate that she had been questioned by police and other law enforcement authorities about her whereabouts on the morning of 17 February?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did she indicate as to her ability to establish where she was on that morning?
A She said that she didn't know where she was that morning.
Q Did she ever use the word alibi, or the word alibi come up in her presence?
A Paul, you know, brought up the word alibi. He said that she needed an alibi.
Q And what, if anything, did you say or do in response to his statement, that he thought she needed an alibi?
A Well, I made the remark, I said, "Well, I can be her alibi because I saw her that morning. I saw her two girlfriends painting the apartment, then I saw her when she come up and joined them, you know." And then when I said that, she kind of backed off and they had to go, they left, they left -- they just dropped the subject then.
Q What was your relationship with this young lady after the morning, after the day that you told her that you had seen her on the morning of 17 February?
A Well, I mean, she kind of shied away from me then, and then she left shortly after that.
Q How long after that particular conversation did she leave?
A It was within a few days.
Q You say she left. She moved away from there?
A She left completely.
Q Did you ever have any discussions with her about the hat and the wig that you'd seen her with?
A Yeah, I, on occasion, you know --
Q Which occasion are you referring to?
A The one about the alibi, you know, and she said, she made a remark -- what made it look bad was that she didn't -- she threw her hat and her boots away, and I asked her, I said, "What did you do with them?" She said she threw them away she didn't remember what she'd done with them. But her wig, she said she still had it, that blonde wig.
Q Did you question her further about the location of the -- or the method by which she disposed of her hat and her boots?
A I asked her, you know, what she did with them, and she just kept saying she didn't remember what she'd done with them.
Q Had you ever seen her with her boots and her hat after that morning, February 17th?
Q Did she describe anything about the condition of her boots at the time she disposed of them?
A Well, I had talked to her, you know, about two nights ago. She had just got back in town, and I went up to Haymount to try and find her, to try and find out what her name was, and I was talking to her, and she mentioned that when she got rid of the her boots, I said, "Why did you get rid of your boots?" You know, she said, "Well, the heel was broken, I broke the heel" and she said they were awful muddy at the time.
Q Now what was it that got you so interested or caused you to pay attention to the fact that the people next door were painting their apartment at 4:00 AM in the morning on the 17th? What was there that struck you about that episode -- you woke up and saw these girls painting the apartment?
A You know, I mean, they didn't usually keep hours like that, way down in the morning. I mean they, it wasn't part of her to be out running around that time of the morning.
Q Did she discuss with you -- did the young lady discuss with you her condition, her physical or mental condition, on the morning of the 17th of February when you talked to her?
A Well, she said -- she had said that she was stoned, and I asked her what she was using that night, if she was on acid or what, and she said mescaline. I said didn't she remember what she did, and she said that she had been stoned a hundred times on acid and all of it, you know, but she said that that was the only night that she couldn't remember anything that had happened during the course of the night after she got stoned, and she said that since that time that she hadn't tried any of it, and had been off of it.
Q When you say she had not tried any of it, do you mean she was referring to the fact that she had tried --
A Dropped acid, shot mescaline or anything else.
Q But when you say stoned, perhaps it would be helpful to me if you gave a kind of description of what you understood that term to mean.
A Well, when you are stoned, you know, you -- you are out of the world. You are on your own.
Q And that effect of being stoned, how is it achieved? How does one become stoned?
A Either drop acid or shoot speed or something.
Q What do you mean, drop acid?
A Take acid.
Q And acid is what? LSD?
Q Now what about mescaline? Do you know what mescaline is?
A I'm not familiar with it. I heard about it when I was at college and I know a few people that used it, but I didn't know what it was.
Q Did she indicate at what time she had taken the mescaline on or about 17 February?
Q Did she indicate at all that she had known where she had been prior to the time she came home in the Mustang that morning?
A She said that the only thing that she could remember, she told me was that she, you know, they were riding around. That's all she could remember, riding around, and she couldn't remember anything else.
Q Did she remember or ever mention to you who the other persons that she was with when she was driving around in this Mustang?
Q Now did she do anything else in regard to what she wore after February 17th that you observed?
A Well, after then, you know, like she wore this purple outfit quite a bit. Her clothes, I guess, were limited, because she didn't have that many, but after that she started wearing black all the time. Like now, when you see her, she has nothing but black on, which is part of her dress.
Q Are you sure of the day on which Mrs. MacDonald and the MacDonald children were buried?
A Well, you know, I wasn't -- know the exact date, but then I sat in my house, and the paper said they were having the funeral services out here at Fort Bragg, but during the day I noticed that the girl, that girl, she wore black and had a black --
CPT SOMERS: Excuse me. I object to that. It's not responsive.
CPT BEALE: Overruled, answer the question.
A She wore a black dress that day with black shoes and she wore a thing over her face, a veil, a black veil over her face, and had one of those things you use on a grave, a big artificial flower thing, wreath, they had a wreath outside her door, and she sat there and -- it was unusual for her too, because most of the time she, she was the type that was always going, wanting to go somewhere, go, go. But that day she wouldn't go with anybody. She stayed in the apartment by herself all day. She just sat in there all day long.
Q And that is the day in which you became aware that a funeral service was being held at Fort Bragg?
Q Had you ever seen her in that kind of get-up at all before?
A That was quite contrary to the way she usually dressed. She never dressed like that before.
Q And after the day of the MacDonald funeral, did she wear black clothing thereafter?
A Well, after that day she left, you know, about a day or so later, and I've only seen her twice since then. On both occasions that I have seen her, she had black on.
Q Did you have occasion to talk to her on that day or inquire about this mourning apparel that she was wearing?
A No, I didn't talk to her that day, but, you know, her boyfriend had come up in his car and he wanted her to go somewhere, and she got real mad. She wouldn't talk to anyone. He got real mad at her and she stormed out of the driveway and he took off, and she wouldn't have nothing to do with anybody that day. She kept to herself all day.
Q Now this young lady told you about having been stoned a hundred times on acid, and having taken LSD, had you ever observed her conduct on prior occasions before February 17th, her manner of behavior, in which any way appeared to be other than an average normal person would behave?
A On several occasions my wife and I had noticed her by herself and with friends, you know, in her apartment, they had taken a trip or something and she'd be acting like a bird or like a dog. She acted out all these different types of animals and such.
Q How would she perform? What would she do when she acted out these animals?
A Well, one thing that my wife --
CPT SOMERS: I object to this. This is irrelevant in the extreme. How she acted as an animal is totally unrelated to this case.
CPT BEALE: The objection is sustained, Captain Somers.
Q Now did you ever observe the type of illumination that was used in the apartment in which this young lady and her friends lived?
A I don't understand what you mean.
Q All right. What kind of lighting was in the apartment when it was dark outside and there was no daylight to --
A Well, you know, they moved in. None of them worked. They just -- they didn't have -- I didn't see any of them have regular jobs, their electricity was cut off, and they burned -- they had candlelight for maybe two or three days, and then their friends in the back apartment, they ran this extension cord from their apartment to theirs to give them light.
Q Did you ever observe candles in that apartment yourself, actually see them?
A Well, I'd seen candle, candlelight, like one night when she was acting like a bird, you know, she was -- the candle was there and she was making imitations onto the wall, I mean, that's about the only time that I noticed it, besides one night they had a séance, but that's about the only time.
Q Did you have occasion to become aware of whether there were other drugs present in that apartment other than the LSD which she said she used?
A Well, you, like I went over there once or twice to talk to Paul, you know, and they'd been smoking grass or something like this.
Q Did they have visitors frequently in the apartment in the evening hours?
A Well, like Mr. Archbell, he's the man that -- he's an old man that lives there, and they usually made a lot of noise and so, like one night him and I just sat there together and we counted the people that went in, and in the course of a night, in about four hours, there was thirty-some-odd different people go to their apartment and then leave.
Q How long would these people stay in the apartment?
A No more than five minutes.
Q And what age were these people? Elderly people?
CPT SOMERS: I object to this. It's irrelevant.
MR. SEGAL: Oh, I don't think, it's clearly circumstantial evidence. It's a classic testimony by agents who conducted narcotics investigations indicating the pattern of activity, and it seems to me that a person having established use of drugs, if there is any indication of further drug activity, it seems to be germane to this inquiry.
CPT SOMERS: He's already testified that she said that she used drugs. I don't see what he can possibly be driving at at this point.
MR. SEGAL: Sale of drugs on the premises.
CPT SOMERS: There no charge here of drugs.
CPT BEALE: The objection is overruled, Captain Somers.
CPT BEALE: Would you repeat the question?
Q Would you indicate the age range of these people that came?
A They ranged anywhere from fifteen on up to about twenty something, twenty-five, twenty-six.
Q And was this the kind of condition that existed there only on the night that you and Mr. Archbell observed on that night, or on other occasions also?
A It happened all the time.
Q You mentioned you observed a séance taking place in the apartment where this young lady lived. Would you describe something of what you saw at that time, particularly as to her conduct?
A Well, they didn't have it in her apartment. They had it in Paul Bowman's apartment. But see, he moved out. I went back there to see him, and I knocked on the door, and the curtain -- they had long curtains on the inside of the door, and they were kind of cracked and they had a red light that would rotate around, and they were all sitting in a circle there holding hands and watching Paul's wife, because she was talking. See, they all thought they were witches.
Q How did you get that impression, they thought they were witches?
A Well, like my brother-in-law and his wife, they weren't married then, and my wife's sister stayed with us, and her and Jimmy were having some trouble, you know, just boyfriend and girlfriend trouble, but one day Helen and Paul's wife told her that they could make up some love potion for her, and so they used Jimmy's car, that's my brother-in-law, to go out to the woods to get some stuff to make some love potion with.
Q You used the name, Helen, is that the --
A That's the name I knew the girl by.
Q That's the girl with the floppy hat that lived next door?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, what else did you observe about the séance?
A You know, I just stood there and watched them a few minutes and they were trying to contact somebody's uncle. Paul's uncle or somebody, something, because that's what -- I can't think of his wife's name -- but she was going to talk to, you know, so I just turned around and left because they wouldn't answer the door.
Q Did you ever have occasion to be in the presence of this young lady when there were police or other law enforcement officers nearby?
A No, I just -- I saw her busted one day, but that's all.
Q Did you ever hear her comment about police and what terms did she use to refer to law enforcement people?
A She calls them pigs.
Q Have you heard her say that recently?
A Well, like night before last, a policeman passed by in a car and she said, "Check the pig wagon out." And she pointed to the cop.
Q Mr. Posey, I want to show you an exhibit that's been previously marked in this case, A-31, and ask you whether this resembles any person that you know.
A It resembles her in the way of the hat and the eyes, and this, you know, that's the type of long straight blonde wig, but her nose is big, like that, but it doesn't look like her chin.
Q You disagree with the way the chin appears in this photo, rather this drawing, as you remember the girl?
A Yeah, no, I mean --
Q You disagree?
A I do disagree with the chin, yes.
Q May I have this drawing, sir, marked as Accused Exhibit 36, I believe.
MR. SEGAL: I would state at this time that the exhibit that we've just had marked as A-36, was prepared in the same manner and fashion as the Exhibit A-31, by a former police artist pursuant to interviews and working with Captain MacDonald, and this drawing was prepared in the same fashion, except this is a photograph of the original. We are using a photograph at this time.
COL ROCK: On what date were these prepared, approximately?
MR. SEGAL: August 8th and August 9th of 1970.
COL ROCK: That will be entered as Accused Exhibit 36, drawing of man with mustache.
(A-36 was examined by counsel for the government.)
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q Mr. Posey, I want to show you a copy of a drawing marked A-36 in this case, and ask you whether the face that appears in that drawing resembles any person you know?
A It resembles the guy, you know, that used to drive the blue Mustang over there all the time. It doesn't look -- the only thing, the mustache and the way his hair is. He always wore fly-away collars, the kind that don't button down, they were always flopping around.
Q Like the collar is depicted here?
A He was a, you know, a well-built man. He wasn't fat or anything. He was well built. He's maybe six foot tall.
Q You say he's the man who always drove the Mustang?
Q Is that the type of car that resembles the car you saw on the morning of 17 February, out of which the young lady got out?
A It was the same type of car. It was one of those Mach 1's.
MR. SEGAL: Cross-examine.
Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q How far away from the apartment that you were living in was the apartment of these girls?
A Between, about fifteen and twenty feet.
Q And what were the two girls doing, did you say, in the house on the morning of the 17th?
A They were painting.
COL ROCK: Excuse me. What were they painting? Were they painting walls or were they painting pictures?
WITNESS: They were painting walls, but they weren't what you call wall painting -- they were painting designs and stuff like that.
COL ROCK: On the walls?
WITNESS: One of the girls was doing something on the floor, painting something on the floor.
Q You say lights were on in that apartment?
A At that time, yes.
Q How many lights did they have?
A Well, you see, it's just one room apartment with a little bitty bathroom off to the side, a shower and just a small section for a kitchen.
Q Do you know how many lights they have?
A Well, I don't know. They had one in the kitchen, I am sure, and there's one in the living room, and there's one in the bathroom, but I don't know if there is one in the shower or not.
Q And these were all connected up to an extension cord from somebody else's apartment?
A No, the extension cord, you know, they had used that before then, before that time.
Q You mean at some point they paid their electricity bill?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now why was it that this seemed unusual to you?
A Well, I mean, I observed them doing a lot of things, but you know, I never see them at four o'clock in the, morning over there painting their apartment, painting designs and stuff like this, laughing and cutting up the way they were.
Q But you had seen them in a séance and you had seen them with thirty or more people in and out of that apartment, and you've seen them using drugs, but compared to these things, painting at four o'clock in the morning seemed unusual to you?
A I didn't say that I had seen them take drugs. I seen them, what looked like they were under the influence of drugs.
Q Did you not say you had seen them smoking marijuana?
A Yeah, I've seen them smoking grass. I seen a bunch of them smoke grass.
Q By grass do you mean marijuana?
Q And what was this girl wearing that got out of that Mustang?
A You know, I didn't notice what she was wearing. I didn't take note of what she had on.
Q But she wasn't wearing a hat?
A No, she wasn't wearing a hat.
Q And what color is her hair?
A It is brunette.
Q How long had she been living there prior to this incident?
A Two or three months.
Q And how long had you been living in your apartment there prior to that incident?
A About a year, two years, over a year.
Q You had seen this girl about twice a day during this two or three month period?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where and under what circumstances did you usually see her?
A Well, now I've seen her coming in and out of her apartment a lot, but like my wife and I, we'd go up to the Village Shoppe, you know, get a pizza or something, and she's be up there a lot of times, she'd be at the Village Shoppe.
Q Now you've described this as an area where a lot of hippies hang out. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q What's a hippie to you?
A Someone that is against the establishment. I mean they -- freedom of dress and long hair, beads.
Q And you considered these girls hippies?
A Well, the way they dressed and acted, yes, I believe they were hippies.
Q Do you expect to see unusual conduct in hippies?
A You expect unusual conduct but they -- they do things that are, you know, go beyond what they normally do.
Q You saw this girl come in on the morning of the 17th. Did you see her when she went out?
Q Then you don't know what she was wearing when she went out?
A No, sir.
Q Now you say this girl told you she had thrown her hat and boots away. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did she throw her hat and boots away?
A Well, about a week or two after that when I was -- when Paul and I and her were talking, you know, she said that she had thrown them away, and it was prior to that, maybe in between that time and the murder, and up to that date, but she didn't say specially at what time she had thrown them away.
Q In other words, she had thrown them away between the 17th and the time you spoke to her?
A Right. But she said that she was questioned, either a day or two days later she was questioned and she said that, you know, she didn't have her boots and her hat at that time either.
Q You cannot describe the people that were in that Mustang. Is that correct?
A No, sir.
Q But you believe there were more than two in the car, two or more in the car when it left on the morning of the 17th?
A Yes, sir, there was at least two in there because there was more than two voices coming from the car, at least two voices coming from the car.
Q Now describe the discussion again concerning an alibi. Who first mentioned that word?
A Paul Bowman, a friend of hers.
Q And what did he say?
A He said that, you know, she had been questioned three or four times and that she didn't know where she had been that night, that she was stoned and needed an alibi, you know, and then I made the remark that I had seen her girlfriends painting and I saw her get out of the car, get out of the car that morning, and I told him that I could be her alibi, so far as --
Q And what did she say?
A She didn't say anything. She just kind of, you know, backed off and both of them dropped the conversation.
Q When was the discussion about the boots and the hat?
A That was earlier, earlier than the conversation, you know, when she said -- when she had come up and told me that she had been questioned, you know, several times.
Q Now you say she shied away. I believe that's one of the terms you used at the time you mentioned that?
Q Well, describe shied away.
A Well, I mean like we were having, doing a lot of discussion, and all of a sudden she just, they both just withdrew from me. They had to go -- they had to leave.
Q They both withdrew?
A Well, she did first and then Paul dropped the conversation and he got on another topic and they both left.
Q Was Paul in that Mustang or in that area the night that she came in?
A I didn't see him.
Q You say that she told you that she was driving around that night, and that's all she remembered. Is that correct?
A That's all she said she could remember.
Q Now as I understand it, you've seen her twice since the 17th to talk to her, is that correct?
A No, I said I've seen her -- she stayed around there after that for awhile, but then she left and I've only seen her twice since she left.
Q I see. And she was wearing black on both of those occasions?
A On both occasions.
Q What kind of black clothing are we talking about?
A Well, like she use to wear all purple silky outfits with a vest and a white blouse, and these silky looking baggy pants, but now she wears the same type of clothing, but it's solid black, it's all black. I mean like the other night when I saw her she had the same style of pants and vest, but the purple part was black.
Q Did this girl ever say to you that she had been in the MacDonald apartment?
A No, sir.
Q When was it that these candles that you've described were used to light the apartment?
A It was about the first part, the first month they lived there.
Q In the first month, which was what? November, December?
A I don't remember exactly that month.
Q Now you said that these people all thought that they were witches. First off, who is they?
A Paul's -- Paul's wife and Helen, the girl, and Sheila, another girl who used to live in an upstairs apartment. But I never heard her roommates say that they were.
Q Then you have heard these other girls say that they were witches?
Q All of them?
A Right, all three of them.
Q Now when you were asked why you thought they were witches, you described an incident in which they were offering to make a love potion, but you didn't say then that you heard them call themselves witches. When did they call themselves witches?
A Well, you know, prior to, like I had never heard them say they were witches, but see, like Sheila, she had all those books on witchcraft, you know, we used to go to their apartment a lot, Sheila's apartment.
Q Did Sheila call herself a witch?
A On that day that they were going to make the love potion, they told my wife and I that they were witches.
Q Now, "they" are who?
A The three of them said that they were witches, and they said that they could make a love potion that would bring Jimmy and Debbie back together.
Q Would you give us, please, the full names of all those people?
A Well, Sheila -- I just know her by that name. I know Helen and Paul's wife -- her last name is Bowman, but I can't think of her first name right now.
Q And your brother-in-law?
A Jimmy Cramado. C-r-a-m-a-d-o.
Q And his girlfriend?
A His wife now.
Q Well, before that?
A Before she got married or what?
Q No, just her first name.
Q Have you had an occasion to talk to many of these people you've described as hippies?
A Well, I've talked to several of them, a lot of them. My brother, one of my younger brothers, he -- he is a senior in high school this year, he lived with me. He associated with them a lot, you know --
Q And what do they normally call policemen?
A Well, they normally refer them as pigs.
Q Most hippies use that term, do they not?
A Either a fuzz or pig, the majority of them. They call anyone in the establishment a pig.
Q Describe for us, please, the individual whom you've identified as being the driver of the Mustang that usually frequented that apartment?
A You mean his eyes and stuff?
A He's about the -- about six feet tall, about the same height as you. He was a little bit bigger in the shoulders, you know. He wasn't a muscle man, but he was a well-built man.
Q He was about six feet tall?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now I show you A-31 again. You say that the hat looks familiar?
Q And you say the hair was long and stringy as you see it there in that exhibit?
A The blonde wig was long and stringy.
Q The blonde wig was long and stringy?
Q You say the eyes looked similar to the girl's eyes. Is that correct?
A The eyes looks like hers.
Q Now what characteristics of the eyes looked similar?
A Well, they're, you know, big and they're kind of round, round like hers.
Q These eyes look big to you in the picture?
Q You say the chin doesn't look right. Is that right?
A She has a chin -- she has a chin like, you know, it comes up. She has a chin like that, but it was more noticeable than the drawing.
Q And what about the nose?
A Her nose is kind of big.
Q Did you say that the cheeks were correct or that they were not correct?
A The cheeks don't look too good.
Q Is that a drawing of her, then, do you think?
MR. SEGAL: That's objected to. It was asked whether it resembled -- to purport it to be a copy of that person is an unfair question and is improper.
CPT BEALE: I agree. The witness has merely testified that this drawing either does or does not resemble a person. It can't purport to be the person, so the objection is sustained.
Q Now I show you Exhibit A-36. Why do you say that looks similar to the man who drives a Mustang?
A The way his hair is and the mustache and everything. He has kind of, you know, big eyebrows.
Q Those are the only similarities?
A Right. He -- you know, the guy that drove the Mustang, he was a -- a more conservative dresser than the others. He didn't dress sloppy all the time. He always wore decent clothes and he always -- always wore fly-away collars, never button-down collars.
Q You are not sure that's the same Mustang that came there the 17th, are you?
A No, sir.
Q Was the address of this apartment that Helen and her friends lived in, 1108 Clark Street, Apartment 3?
A It was either, you know, I never paid any attention, it was either 11 -- well, my was 1106. It was 1108.
Q Who is the landlord? Is that Mr. Turner?
A Mr. Turner, yes.
Q And you said this girl indicated to you that she had been interviewed by police on more than one occasion?
A Yes. She is the one that they had the write-up in the Fayetteville newspaper about. They had a -- they had a thing there about her, and the one day that they had questioned her several times and she said that she admitted in the paper using drugs, stuff like this.
Q I see. To what law enforcement agency did you report this information concerning her coming in on the morning of the 17th?
Q You have never reported this to a law enforcement agency?
A No, sir.
Q When did you bring this to someone's attention other than your wife or your friends?
A Well, you know -- what do you mean?
Q When was the first time you told somebody other than your wife or maybe your friends about this?
A I told Mr. Segal, well, I, you know, Monday I work -- I work for a linen service, and Monday I was working at Heart of Fayetteville at which he was staying at and I heard, you know, that I delivered to, she said the MacDonald lawyers were staying there, and she named the room. So later on that night, you see, since then it's always -- I've stayed up quite a few nights thinking about it -- so I called and talked to them, and then I went to see them the next morning. He's the only one.
Q How come you haven't told somebody before now?
A Because I didn't want to get involved in it.
Q You didn't want to get involved. What do you mean by that?
A Well, when -- I figured, you know, if they did it, and they did it to his family, that if they had any connection to it and they knew that I was the one, I saw her that morning, and she had anything to do with it, they would get me, get my family, and I, my wife, you know, she's the type that anything upsets her and so, we had several discussions over it, but we always decided not to say anything about it, just keep it to ourselves.
Q How many jobs have you had since you worked for Bass?
MR. SEGAL: That's objected to.
CPT BEALE: The objection is overruled. Answer the question.
A I worked at Bass and then I quit Bass and my trade is painting signs and contracting, stuff like this, and I painted during the summer which is a good season, and then I just took up the linen job about last Saturday I started working for them, this past Saturday.
Q Have you ever used drugs yourself?
Q There's been a reward offered for information in this case. Did you ever hear about the reward?
A Well, you know, Mr. Eisman mentioned it, I think, about the third time I talked to him, but after we -- I had told him everything that I knew and I had heard it on the radio several months, you know, a few months back, but other than that one occasion when Mr. Eisman spoke to me of it, well you know, they said that, on the radio they say there was a reward but they didn't say how much, you know, I heard it one day and that was it.
CPT SOMERS: Sir, at this time, if we could, we'd like to take about a five-minute recess. We may have some evidence we can use with this witness. I'd like to check on that.
COL ROCK: The hearing will recess temporarily.
(The hearing recessed at 1000 hours, 13 August 1970.)
(The hearing reopened at 1029, 13 August 1970.)
COL ROCK: This hearing will come to order. Let the record reflect that those parties who were present are currently in the hearing room.
Mr. Posey, I again remind you that you are under oath.
Does counsel for the government have further questions at this time of the witness?
CPT SOMERS: I have no further of this witness, sir.
MR. SEGAL: I have some matters on redirect, if I may, sir.
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q On the various persons you saw visiting this girl in her apartment, were they all members of the Caucasian race, that is, white persons?
A No, sir.
Q How many were non-whites?
A There was only one colored guy that come over there pretty regular. In fact he was the only colored guy that I ever seen over there. The reason I remember him so well is that I'm from Alabama, you know, and my wife was in the kitchen one day cooking, and here he come be-hopping up, dressed like a hippie, mocs and boots and everything, it was really wild to see a colored guy, you know, in their group with them, right along with them.
Q The Mustang that you say the man with the mustache drove, was it any particular model of the Mustang automobile?
A It was the new Mach 1 they had out.
Q That's spelled M-a-c-h and the Roman number one?
A Right, it was a Mach 1.
Q What distinguishes that Mustang from the ordinary model of the Mustang?
A Well, it, you know, comes down kind of streamed -- streamlined -- and has this spoiler in the back of it.
Q You say it comes down. Are you referring to the rear of the car where the trunk is -- in a streamline fashion?
Q Can you describe what a spoiler is?
A It's a -- you know, kind of a square deal on the back on a Mustang. On a Mach it is kind of rounded off and comes down.
Q Would it be applicable to say something like a wing standing up on it head?
A No, it's not a wing type.
Q Is there anything else about the Mach 1 that is different from the ordinary Mach 1 -- other ordinary models of the Mustang?
A Well, they usually have a scoop, a black scoop on the front of them, and it has Mach 1 on it, and if it is a 351 it has 351 on it.
Q You say a scoop on part of it. What portion of the car are you talking about?
A On the hood.
Q On the hood? And what are the words on it?
A It has the words, "Mach 1."
Q I see. Now the car that you saw the girl come up in on the morning of February 17th, you described that also to us this morning as a Mustang. Am I correct?
Q Did you observe whether, in fact it was any special model Mustang?
A It was a Mach 1 also, because it had a scoop on it.
Q Was this girl who lived next door, the girl that you described as the girl who owned the floppy hat and the boots, to your knowledge, was she ever arrested for any crime?
A She had been, you know, busted for dope several times.
Q For dope. What do you mean? Do you know what she was charged with, what crime she was charged with?
A Well, she was involved in one of the big acid rings they had here in Fayetteville and I think that was a little bit over a year ago.
Q Do you know whether she was charged with either use or possession or sale of drugs?
Q Do you know whether she had any close friends who were members of the armed forces of the United States stationed here at Fort Bragg?
A The majority of her friends were military in the Army.
Q And were there any particular persons whom she was close to or who, about whom she was concerned and the way the military was treating them?
CPT SOMERS: I object to this. It's irrelevant and it is beyond the scope of any direct or cross-examination.
MR. SEGAL: It seems to me very close to the question of motive in regard to attitude toward the Army personnel in regard to drug arrest.
CPT BEALE: The objection is overruled. You may answer the question.
A The only members of their family that, you know, got busted, there was three guys that got busted on Street, who use to come over there all the time, and all three of them was military, but two of them was getting discharged, and one of them got discharged and on the same day he got discharged, he got busted for LSD.
Q That person, who had LSD, to your knowledge, was he a soldier at Fort Bragg?
Q And do you know about what month that arrest took place?
A It was in, it was, you know, wasn't a long period of time before that case in February.
Q You mean it was not a long period of time before February 17th, 1970?
Q Would you indicate whether it was more than a month, or less than a month, or what?
A It was within a month that he got busted.
Q What was her attitude to the fact that her friend has been arrested the day he was discharged?
A All of them were upset about it, you know. She was -- he associated with all of them, but he didn't necessarily associate with her, you know, her specially. They were all good friends.
Q Did she ever express what her attitude was toward the United States Army and Fort Bragg particular?
A They all did that.
Q And what was their attitude?
A It stunk.
Q That was her view of the Army?
A (Witness nodded head in the affirmative.)
Q You used the description a moment ago something about the family. What does that mean? What relevance did it have to this young lady?
A Well, like before, you know they made a bunch of noise. They used to stay up until one or two o'clock in the morning, making noise all night long, so I went and told Mr. Turner, the landlord. I said -- I told him, you know, there are more than them girls staying there. He said, well, there's only supposed to be two. So he come over there with me, you know, that night, and he went in there and he started kicking them out of their apartment, and he kicked something like ten or fifteen guys out and girls, and they had their bags, and they were all, you know, staying there. It wasn't just the three of them.
Q Did they have a name for themselves, these people that hung around with this girl? Were they good friends?
A I mean they were, you know, just considered themselves one big group, one big family.
Q Did they ever use the term "family" for themselves in describing their friends, that they were part of the family?
A You know, I never referred to them, you know, as being the family, but they said a lot of times, part of the group.
Q Did you observe any differences or changes in the attitude or behavior of this young woman before -- from the time before February 17th, and the time after February 17th 1970?
A Well, like before, she, she was always, you know, real gay and real happy, and like I'd come home from work and she'd say "Hi" you know, real loud and ask me how my day went and this type of thing, but like night before last when I saw her she looked all rundown and she, she keeps to herself more. She's not with the group, like night before last all the group was down here at Rowan Park and she was up there by herself.
Q Did you observe that change in behavior after February 17th?
A Well, I mean, you know, after that there wasn't no all night parties or anything going on next door there. Everything was real quiet.
Q Did she continue to go or associate with this same young man who had been her by friend before February 17th, as she did after --
A Not like she did before, you know, they were always together before but after that -- in fact, I didn't even see him until, you know, just here recently. He didn't come over no more after that. The day that MacDonald was buried, he was over there.
Q Did you ever hear her talk about killing other human beings?
A Well, you know, like the night before last, I asked her, and we got to talking about the MacDonald thing and everything and I asked her, she told me she was stoned out, she didn't remember what she done, and I said, "Well, did you do it? Were you a part of it?" and she says she doesn't know, she just drew a blank, but she said that she didn't think she could kill anyone because she wasn't that type of person that, you know, was hostile, and I said, "Well, you could have just been holding the light," you know, and she kinda, you know, just nodded her head and let it go at that. But she made a remark, I asked, how was her and her boyfriend doing, and she said they weren't getting along too well, and I asked her why, and she said, "Well, we can't get married until we go out and kill some more people." She made that remark.
Q Now I want to back up for just a second in regard to what you just told us. Are you telling the investigating officer that two nights ago you asked this young lady whether or not she was involved in the killing in the MacDonald home?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now will you, better go over this, slowing down -- put the question, state the questions you posed to her, and tell us what she said, as much as her words as possible?
A Well, you know, she had been talking about it and I said, I asked her, had they questioned her any more about it, and she said no that she had been gone, she'd just got back in town, you know, and she told me that she was dying from hepatitis, kidney disease or something, and she said she was supposed to die within a year, and so I asked her had they questioned her any more and she said no, and then I said, you know, I asked her if she was involved in it and she said she was stoned out on mescaline that night, and I said, "Well, were you there? Did you do it? And she said, "I don't, you know, remember what I did that night." She said, "I've been stoned on acid a dozen times," she said, "But that night's the only night I can't remember exactly what I done" and so I says, "Do you believe that you could have been involved in it?" And she said, "Well, I don't believe that I could kill anyone because I don't have hostile tendencies." And I said, "You could have just been holding the candle," and she kinda nodded her head.
Q When you say "nodded her head," do you mean affirmative or negative?
A Well, you know, just, you know, she didn't say yes, she didn't nod no or yes, either way, she just motioned her head.
COL ROCK: I'm sorry, which way did she motion her head?
WITNESS: It was an up and down motion.
COL ROCK: To you, would that normally mean that the individual agreed with you or disagreed with you?
WITNESS: I couldn't -- I couldn't, it didn't -- I , mean, like she didn't want to answer it to me, in my opinion, because she didn't nod her head yes or no either way.
Q Before you decided to contact me and even before you decided to agree to appear here yesterday, did you discuss your testimony -- did you discuss out request to have you come here to testify with your wife?
A It had been bothering me, you know, a lot of what I'd seen that day, and what I had observed after that, but I mentioned to my wife, you know, that I wanted to go and tell the people what I know, and she was afraid. Like now, like yesterday when I was here, she didn't even know I was here, and today, this morning, I told her, and she's been real upset, like the other night in Haymount, she saw me up there, and that upset her, and like last night, the screen door on the house, you know, kept hitting, flopping back and forth and that upset her. She's been real jittery. She don't want to get involved.
Q Why did you and your wife move from Haymount area?
A Well, because of the hippies, you know, always tripping out and after that you couldn't -- you couldn't tell what they will do, you know.
Q What was told to you by Mr. Eisman or myself, or anyone else about a reward?
A Well, I think it was Tuesday night or Wednesday night that I was, after he had talked to me, Mr. Eisman mentioned that if anybody gives any information leading to the conviction or arrest for the murder, they get a reward of $5,000.
Q Did anyone tell you or suggest to you, or in any way indicate to you that you would receive any compensation or anything of any value for coming here to testify in these proceedings?
A No, you said that, you know, I asked you to keep my name out of the papers and stuff, and you said that, you made a remark, "Well, you don't even know me, but you'll have to trust me about keeping your name out of the papers," but you said it was risky, but, you know, there was no reward, you know, anything like that.
MR. SEGAL: May I have marked for identification, sir, an automobile brochure of Ford Motor Company, A-37. Sir, may the record reflect that I have taken a page of a booklet, put out by the Ford Motor Company; a page illustrates six models of the Ford Mustang. This booklet is issued January 1970 and I am going to show it to the witness for the purpose of having him look at six profile outlines of Mustang models.
Q I ask you to look at this, Mr. Posey, and indicate whether you recognize the body style known as the Mustang Mach 1 here?
A This one.
Q You've indicated the car on the bottom of the two lines, or the profile that is in the middle. Is that right?
Q Would you circle it with a red pen, please?
Q And does that resemble the car that the man with the mustache who is know to us in the picture marked as A-36 drove?
Q And does that resemble the car that came up to the house of this young lady on the morning of February 17th, 1970?
A Yes, sir.
COL ROCK: That will be entered as Accused Exhibit A-37, illustration of Mustang Mach 1.
Q Mr. Posey, this young lady had occasion to tell you, did she not, that she was under some investigation by the police immediately after the early morning of February 17th 1970?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did she indicate to you as to what crime the police were talking to her about?
A About the MacDonald incident.
Q And did she indicate that she had read about that, the investigation of herself and other hippies in the newspaper articles too?
A I don't know what you mean.
Q Did she make reference to a newspaper article at that time referring to the hippies in the Haymount area?
Q Did she mention to you at any time that, that she not only didn't have an alibi, but that it appeared somewhere that she didn't have an alibi?
CPT SOMERS: I object to that. That is totally leading and completely improper.
MR. SEGAL: I'll withdraw the question.
Q In regard to the discussion that you had with this young lady and the alibi, did she ever mention that her failure to have an alibi had been told to other people?
CPT SOMERS: I object to that too.
CPT BEALE: Rephrase it again, Mr. Segal.
Q What, if anything, did she say about the knowledge of other people about her not having an alibi?
A I don't understand what you mean.
Q All right, let me put it this way. Did she ever discuss the fact that she didn't have an alibi with you? Please say yes, or no. Did she ever discuss with anybody else the alibi?
A Did she discuss --
Q She did discuss with you that she didn't have an alibi?
Q Did you ever hear from anyone else that she didn't have an alibi?
A Other than Paul Bowman, no.
Q Did you ever read anything about the fact that she didn't have an alibi?
A Well, there was an article, the write-up in the Fayetteville Observer, I think it appeared about three or four days after that, was about her, you know, and it didn't say anything about, you know, about her whereabouts, you know, it just said they had questioned her several times.
MR. SEGAL: May I have a photostatic copy of a news article marked as A-38 for identification, sir?
COL ROCK: Do you wish to show this to --
MR. SEGAL: Yes, sir, I do.
(The article was examined by counsel for the government.)
CPT SOMERS: I object to this. I don't know what its purpose is, but this is a newspaper article concerning some information gained from some unknown source about, theoretically about the MacDonald case, and its use here is completely out of line. We, we can't measure it, test it or anything else.
MR. SEGAL: It's not offered for the truth or its contents. It's offered for the fact that this is the article that the witness read in connection with his discussion with the young lady who had lived next door to him. Its contents are obviously not the evidence in this case. It's merely to indicate that this is the material he was reading.
COL ROCK: Well, then what purpose would that serve, even if it were admitted, counselor? I don't follow.
MR. SEGAL: Sir, this indicated that, in fact, and in fact we can verify it when we bring the investigating officers in, that the persons who were interviewed were being told they were being interviewed for some other offenses, some other investigations about drugs, and not the MacDonald case; as contrarily distinguished throughout, this witness has testified that the girl said that she was being interviewed about the MacDonald case. It seems to me it clearly indicates the fact that this young woman had information about the MacDonald case. Although it is purported all those who were interviewed were for other crimes, we will tie it together if necessary by bringing in all the investigators, but preliminarily, it has to be indicated that the article was the wellspring of the conversation he was having with the young woman.
CPT SOMERS: Well, for the purpose the defense speaks of, this thing cannot be used to prove anything about that investigation, and in any use in connection with this witness, I still contend that it's irrelevant, incompetent and inadmissible in any kind of a form.
CPT BEALE: Mr. Segal, the relevancy of it does not appear readily available to the investigating officer, and therefore at this time it will not be received.
MR. SEGAL: All right, thank you. You may cross-examine. I beg your pardon. There is one other matter I must ask him about.
Q Has any threat been made against you in regard to your revealing the information about what you saw on the morning of February 17th, and anything else about the activities and whereabouts of the young woman you've described, the girl and the hat?
A Well, the night before last when I had a conversation outside the Village Shoppe, you know, I told her I wasn't living there any more, you know. She asked me why and I said my wife was upset because of what was going on, the hippies and everything, and she asked me, she said, "Where do you live now?" And she point-blank asked me my address. She wanted to know what my address was, so I told her. I didn't tell her my real address, I told her a phony one, then I started to leave. My wife, you know, went by in the car, so I walked up to my mother-in-law's to meet my wife, and as I started to walk away real fast she was talking to her boyfriend, and she said, "Where are you going?" I said, "I gotta go now. My wife just passed by." And she, "What was your address?" And she asked me two more times what my address was, and so you know, I told her again the same address I told her before, and she said, kind of jokingly, she said, "Well, tell your wife to lock the doors, because we'll be over to see you."
MR. SEGAL: Cross-examine.
Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q Did you say, sir, there was an incident which you reported, reported in the apartment across the way for the number of people there and the noise at the time they were staying up until one or two o'clock in the morning?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you say that they were doing this often?
A Well, you know, they were making noise pretty much in the night.
Q And were they doing this late?
A Well, it's, you know, around twelve o'clock, one o'clock. It never went past maybe one o'clock.
Q Never went past one o'clock?
A No, they usually stopped by then.
Q Now you say this group, so far as you know, never used the term "family"?
A No, sir.
Q And you say this girl looked run-down the last time you saw her, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did you also say she was suffering from hepatitis?
A Yes, sir.
Q What color was her boyfriend's car? Do you know that? What kind of car was it?
A It's a -- somewheres about a '65.
Q And what color?
Q As I understand it, you said this girl she didn't remember what she had done on the night of the 17th, but she felt she could not have been involved in the killing. Is that correct?
A She said she didn't remember what she had done, other than just ride around. She remembered riding around early in the morning, but, you know, when I asked her, was she involved in it, was she there, and she didn't say. She never once, she never did say that she wasn't involved in it.
Q Didn't you say that she had said she didn't feel she was capable of killing anybody?
A Yes, sir.
Q I see. Now didn't you also tell me on my cross-examination that Mr. Eisman mentioned this reward to you?
A Yes, sir.
Q I see. And I understand that you are frightened about this situation, and about giving information and becoming personally involved, or your wife is at any rate. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And if that's the case, why did you personally go out and look for this girl and expose yourself to further danger?
A Because they needed to know the name of the girl.
Q Who is "they"?
A Mr. Eisman and Mr. Segal.
Q And because they wanted to know the name of the girl, you personally went out and exposed yourself to the danger and talked to her. Is that correct?
A Well, see, I didn't -- I didn't think she would be there, because she had been gone so long, so I figured, I knew the people that she associated with, you know, and they knew me, and like I knew they used drugs and pushed drugs and I never ratted on them, so they didn't have no reason, you know, think that I was there trying to gather information.
Q Well, now is it from her that you would fear reparation, or fear revenge or is it from her friends?
A Well, it's -- would be from, to them, they are one. They watch out for each other, just like yesterday I saw in the paper where the one guy that --
CPT SOMERS: Now, that's not --
MR. SEGAL: I object to cutting off the witness's answer. He asked a question. The witness wants to explain his answer.
CPT SOMERS: The witness has answered the question. The rest of his answer is not responsive to the question.
MR. SEGAL: We can't tell until we hear it, sir. I object to his cutting the witness off.
CPT SOMERS: Captain Somers, if you will, let the witness finish answering your question.
Q You may continue.
A Yesterday I noticed this guy had been set up for twelve years for tying up this other guy. See, these particular people, the names were in the paper, and one of the guys stayed next door, and the one guy that, you know, they took out to 71st and tied up, you know, held the shotgun to his head, he messed around with them, and one of them got busted for dope and they thought he was the informer, and so I figure if she knew that I saw her that morning, if she was involved they would track me down and get me.
Q Who is this "they?"
A Well, her and her friends.
Q Well, the people that you read about in the newspaper, are they part of this group? Are they her friends?
A They have been over there. They have associated with her, her and her friends.
Q Then you know these people in the newspaper?
A I knew, you know, if I saw them I would know them, but I don't know them by name, but I'd seen them over there, and I know the guy that they had tied up and everything.
Q Despite this danger that you are talking about, you took it on yourself, once you saw this girl, to go and speak to her and interrogate her about the MacDonald case. Is that correct?
A See, I didn't -- I didn't -- I didn't just walk up to her and start talking to her about the MacDonald case.
Q I understand that, but you did, in fact, interrogate her about the MacDonald case, didn't you?
A Well, you know, yes.
CPT SOMERS: I have no further questions. Wait, yes, I do have one for the benefit of the hearing.
Q Would you define the term "busted"?
A It means arrested.
Q Then it doesn't mean, for instance, convicted by a court? It means --
A It means just picked up.
CPT SOMERS: I see. Nothing further.
MR. SEGAL: Sir, I just want some information about this newspaper -- the names from yesterday's paper to clarify the record. I will delay it if you have any questions.
COL ROCK: I have some questions. Go ahead.
MR. SEGAL: If you will, sir, you may ask your questions and give me a moment to have someone check the article.
COL ROCK: All right.
COL ROCK: Mr. Posey, do you know the last name of this girl? Helen's last name?
WITNESS: No, sir.
COL ROCK: Do you know whether Helen is her actual name or does she go by other names?
WITNESS: She goes by several names, different names.
COL ROCK: What are the other names?
WITNESS: Well, like, I've heard her called Mary, Mary a lot of times, but Helen was mostly what I heard her called by. I can't remember offhand what other names I've heard.
COL ROCK: Where did you see her night before last?
WITNESS: At the Village Shoppe in Haymount, right outside, you know, by the two ice cream trucks there.
COL ROCK: What was she wearing night before last?
WITNESS: Black slacks with a black vest with a white shirt, you know.
COL ROCK: Did she seem to be of cheerful disposition, or sad or --
WITNESS: Well, you know, earlier when I come into the Village Shoppe she was sitting over drinking her Coke by herself, you know, and she was kind of to herself then, and one guy came and spoke to her, so I just sat down at the other table, had a Coke, and then she got up and left, you know, so I got up and left and then I come back thirty or forty minutes later and went back in and had another Coke and she wasn't there, you know. So I started back out the door and she was coming around the trucks, you know, and was going in. There was a water puddle between us, she walked on one side and I walked on the other and I says, "Hey, how are you doing?" you know, and she stopped, you know, and I said, "Have you seen Paul lately?" See, Paul is a good friend of mine and he was a real good friend of hers, you know, and we started talking about Paul, and then we sat down by the truck, you know, talking about an hour, I guess.
COL ROCK: Now, that's Paul Bowman you are referring to?
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
COL ROCK: Do you know where Paul lives?
WITNESS: Oklahoma City is his, you know, his permanent address. I mean that's where his relatives are and everything.
COL ROCK: Is he in Fayetteville now?
WITNESS: No, sir.
COL ROCK: I see. You don't know the specific address in Oklahoma?
WITNESS: No, sir.
COL ROCK: Was Paul in the military service?
WITNESS: Yes, sir, he got discharged. He was in the 82nd Airborne.
COL ROCK: Do you know what unit in the 82nd?
WITNESS: No, sir, he was a radio operator.
COL ROCK: Do you know what date he was discharged?
WITNESS: No, sir.
COL ROCK: Do you know the approximate month?
WITNESS: It was in -- I think it was January the 14th.
COL ROCK: How long did he remain in Fayetteville after his discharge? Do you have any idea?
WITNESS: Well, he left, you know, Fayetteville and went to Oklahoma City. He stayed maybe a week or two and then he come back.
COL ROCK: And how long did he remain in the Fayetteville area after he returned, so far as you know?
WITNESS: Maybe a month or two. He used to live in the back apartment, you know, but he moved out and he was living on -- and I think when he got discharged he came back and stayed a month or two after that.
COL ROCK: When was the last time you saw him? Can you give an approximate date?
WITNESS: Well, I saw him about three or four days after we had a discussion about, by the fence, and I saw him come in in a pick up truck to pick up a TV or something, and that was the last time I saw him.
COL ROCK: So then would you say sometimes towards the end of February was the last time you saw him?
(Witness nodded in the affirmative.)
COL ROCK: When you talked with Helen night before last, and you were outside the Village Shoppe, was there anyone else present at the time you were talking with her?
WITNESS: Well, at first, you know, it was just her and I, and then her boyfriend passed by.
COL ROCK: Now, which boyfriend? Is this a new boyfriend?
WITNESS: No, this is the same one.
COL ROCK: Paul Bowman?
WITNESS: No, Paul Bowman wasn't her boyfriend. He was just a friend of ours.
COL ROCK: I see, just a friend, okay.
WITNESS: He was married.
COL ROCK: Who is her boyfriend?
WITNESS: The only name I know him by is Jim. He drives a yellow Plymouth.
COL ROCK: '65, I believe you said.
WITNESS: Either a '64 or '65, I am not sure.
COL ROCK: Okay, and what did Jim have to say during the course of the conversation, when you were talking to Helen?
WITNESS: Well, he passed by -- you see, this was about forty-five minutes -- we'd been there about forty-five minutes this time talking and he pulled up, you know, and he asked me, you know, if I wanted to tab out on acid that night, and I said no, I told him no, and then they started talking, he started talking to her about a girl that got busted Sunday in Spring Lake. They were bringing this shipment down and they got busted at Spring Lake, and he asked had she seen a certain party, and she said no, and he said, "Well, he owes me two hundred bucks," and he says, "If he don't have the money, I am going to cut his throat when I find him." And it was for, you know, buying drugs I take it. He didn't say.
COL ROCK: Was he in the car all this time?
WITNESS: Right. He pulled up right beside the truck.
COL ROCK: How often have you been awakened at four a.m. to observe the actions of the people in the apartment across the way from you?
WITNESS: I have never awoken that time before. Just one time.
COL ROCK: Did you ever see any males at the apartment wearing parts of military uniform?
WITNESS: Well, not, you know, I'd seen them, a lot of them in their uniforms, complete uniforms.
COL ROCK: Complete uniforms?
WITNESS: Yeah, but they were these confederate, you know, jackets, and in fact I've seen one dressed completely in a confederate uniform one day, but the colored guy, he used to wear a confederate jacket all the time.
COL ROCK: Referring back to Helen's apparel, what color boots did she wear?
WITNESS: She had a pair of white -- they were sort of like pat --
COL ROCK: Leatherette?
WITNESS: Patent, they were kind of shiny.
COL ROCK: And what color hat?
COL ROCK: Could you describe the approximate length of the hair by showing where it might fall relative your own body?
WITNESS: Her real hair? It came down to about right here.
COL ROCK: And how about the blonde wig, if you remember it?
WITNESS: It come down to about right here.
MR. SEGAL: May we indicate for the record where?
COL ROCK: The brunette, approximately halfway on the shoulders. The blonde wig extending eight inches below the Adam's apple.
Have you ever been in the service?
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
COL ROCK: Where were you discharged?
WITNESS: Fort Bragg.
COL ROCK: I have no further questions at this time. Does either counsel?
CPT SOMERS: I do not, sir.
Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q In regard to the newspaper article referred to yesterday, are you referring to an article about the trial of a James Ingland, I-n-g-l-a-n-d?
Q Is that the trial you were referring to?
A (Witness nodded in the affirmative.)
Q He was charged with kidnapping and attempted killing of a Richard Fortner?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you know those people?
A Yes, sir. See, Richard Fortner, you know, he used to come over there, you know, until -- he'd come about a week before the guy got busted, you know, and so they thought he was the one who informed on him. The reason I know it was him, because my father-in-law, he has a Triumph 650 CC motorcycle, and he sold it to Richard Fortner, and my mother-in-law and father-in-law, you know, they used to stay -- they'd see him over there, like one day he was over there mopping the floors, and they saw him.
Q What about James Ingland? Did you know him or see him at all?
A I -- if I saw him, I could tell him. But other than that just by the name I can't tell.
MR. SEGAL: That's all.
COL ROCK: Well, I have one further question. Did you ask Helen what her current address is?
WITNESS: You know, I asked her where she was staying, and she said that she was just bumming around.
CPT SOMERS: Nothing further, sir.
COL ROCK: Mr. Posey, you are requested not to discuss your testimony with any other person, other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused. Do you understand, sir?
(Witness nodded in the affirmative.)
COL ROCK: You are excused, and thank you for appearing today.
MR. SEGAL: May I just state in Mr. Posey's presence that I this morning requested before he entered the room, requested all parties and persons with regard to this investigation to use the utmost precaution to protect his identity and his address, so that he will not have any fears by himself or his wife.
COL ROCK: You can be assured that we will do all within our power to respect your desires. You are excused.
MR. SEGAL: Thank you very much, Mr. Posey.
(The witness departed the hearing room.)