Article 32 Hearing
Volume 12

August 11, 1970

Captain James Williams

MR. SEGAL:  At this time the accused calls Captain James Williams.

(Captain James N. Williams was called as a witness for the defense, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Captain, would you state your full name and rank?
A  My name is Captain James N. Williams, I'm Captain, MSC.
Q  And your unit?
A  I am in Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 6th Special Forces.
Q  And your military service?
A  My service number?
Q  No, are you in the United States Army?
A  I'm in the United States Army, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q  What is your particular assignment as a medical service officer, as you've indicated?
A  I am the Operations and Training Officer of the Group Surgeon's section of the 6th Special Forces.
Q  And how long have you held that particular position?
A  I have been OTO for approximately one year.
Q  Do you know the accused in this case, Captain Jeffrey R.  MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir, I do.
Q  When did you first come in contact with Captain MacDonald?
A  The first time I came in contact with Captain MacDonald was in December of 1969 when the 3rd deactivated.  He was then assigned to the 6th Special Forces Group.  I physically had control of Captain Jeffrey MacDonald in January of 1970, when he reported in and assigned by the Group Surgeon, Captain Meyland Easton, to myself in the position of Preventive Medicine Officer on the medical section of the group.
Q  And you remained in contact with Captain MacDonald from that time until this date?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  How often did you have contact with Captain MacDonald once he joined your unit?
A  I had daily contact with Captain MacDonald.
Q  And what was the nature of this contact with him?
A  In my position as operations officer, I would have the task of passing on details to all medical officers in that section, to assign duties, to supervise the officers in the absence of the Group Surgeon.  Also to take phone calls for these doctors, if it was necessary.
Q  Captain Williams, how long have you been a Medical Service Corps Officer?
A  I've been a Medical Service Corps Officer for four years.
Q  And have you served at other stations, other than Fort Bragg?
A  Yes, sir, I have.  In four years of active duty, I've served one year overseas and almost three years at Fort Bragg.
Q  How many group surgeons have you had contact with in the course of your service?
A  I have had contact with 8 group surgeons to this date.  Captain MacDonald was my sixth.
Q  And how many medical officers all together have you dealt with in a professional relationship?
A  In my four years of service, I have served with approximately 30 MCs, doctors.
Q  And how would you rate Captain MacDonald's capabilities as a physician from what you've observed of all these doctors?
A  In my years of experience, which are very limited, I know of only two MC Officers whom I would rate as absolutely superior.  One of these is Captain MacDonald.
Q  How would you rate Captain MacDonald as a military officer?
A  He was absolutely superior in all manners.
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald's emotional stability?
A  Captain MacDonald was the most stable individual I have ever met.  Serving with him, for supervision and in his position as my supervisor when he became group surgeon.
Q  Did you know Captain MacDonald's wife, Colette MacDonald and their children?
A  In the process of accepting an officer into my outfit, into our unit, I filled out personal data cards on them.  I knew of Colette and his two girls, but I had never met Colette or the two children.
Q  Now did you have occasion to see Captain MacDonald on or about February 17th, 1970?
A  Yes, sir.  The first time I saw Captain MacDonald on the 17th of February, on a Tuesday, was approximately 1600 hours, at Womack Army Hospital.  I was allowed to get on up and go into the recovery room, a private recovery room, where I spent approximately 15 minutes.
Q  May I ask how did you come to be allowed to be in with Captain MacDonald at Womack Army Hospital?
A  At 0430 that morning, on the 17th, I was called by Lieutenant Charles Pendlyshok, who was my MSC medical supply officer.  His position was staff duty officer of the 6th, that morning.  He called me at my home and told me that something dreadful had happened to Captain Mac and his family.  I came in to group headquarters.  I spent approximately two minutes talking with Lieutenant Pendlyshok and immediately went over to Womack Hospital.
Q  You've described seeing him for approximately 15 minutes on the 17th, did you see him again on the 18th?
A  I came back over -- I stayed at the hospital approximately 36 hours straight.  I saw him on the 18th, in the morning at about 0930, when I was again allowed to see him.  I asked him if he needed anything.  
Q  Did you see him again on the 18th or the 19th?
A  During the period, I must have been in his room 3 or 4 more times.
Q  Going back to the first time you saw him, did you have occasion to observe any injuries on or about his head?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Would you describe them for the investigating officer?  Describe where these were, as you recall them?
A  On the evening of the 17th when I first saw him, I walked into the room.  The first impression I had was that he had injuries on his forehead that appeared to me to be horns.
Q  When you say "horns" are you using that as any kind of characterization or did they actually look like horns?
A  It appeared to me that it was horns.  In actuality, when I looked closely, there were contusions.
Q  Now would you indicate these two locations -- now, if I may, you indicated one on the left side of his forehead and one on the right side of the forehead?
A  That's correct.
Q  Did you observe any other injuries on Captain MacDonald's head besides those two on his forehead that you have now pointed out?
A  Yes, I did.  I was standing at the foot of his bed.  Someone came to the door.  He turned his head to the left, in this position.  At that time, I noticed that he had hair matted down on the back of his head in approximately this location.  It appeared to me that it was a knot.
Q  Just hold it a second.  You're indicating, if I see correctly, a position on the right side of the head, above and slightly toward the interior of the right ear?
A  That is correct.
Q  All right, sir, you may go on.  What else did you observe about the head injuries at that time?
A  When I looked at him, he was coming out of sedation.  He was still heavily sedated.  His speech was slurred, but we didn't say anything when we looked at each other at first.  Then I told him, "Jeff, I'm sorry."  Again, we paused.  We couldn't say anything to each other, and at that time, during that pause, as I had been trained to do, I started from the head and the eyes, went down towards his chest --
Q  What did you observe about the injury on his chest?
A  I noticed, sir that the chest tube on his lower right lung in position.  As my eyes read to the left lower portion of his body, I noticed that there were various superficial lacerations, to my opinion.
Q  Did anything else happen at that time that you noted?
A  At that time, the prosaic thought came into my mind, "My God, he's dying," because he was shocky, he was completely pale, his eye did not appear to be normal, he was having difficulty breathing; also, I was so concerned that I didn't even say goodbye.  I walked out, or rather hurried out.  I grabbed hold of the first medic that I came to and I said, "Get someone in there, I think he's dying."
Q  I ask you when you say his eyes didn't appear normal, what, if anything, did you observe about his eyes at that point?
A  His eyes appeared not to focus on me; they appeared rather glazed, he just didn't look me in the eye.
Q  Now after you reported what you observed to the medical personnel that you saw there in the hospital, did you subsequently see Captain MacDonald and did you note anything about his condition or position of anything on his body?
A  In the next one or two days, when I came back in, I noticed that they had moved the chest tube from the lower right portion to the upper right portion.  I asked Mac about this, because with my limited medical knowledge, I was assuming that they had taken the tube completely out.  I'd been told this.  I was concerned about the fact that this position had been moved.  I asked Captain Mac why had they changed the tube and he told me at the time that he'd had a setback and his lung had started to collapse again.  That's the only change I noticed, other than the fact he became more coherent as the days went on.
Q  To your knowledge, did Captain MacDonald have any enemies among the men that he served with as Group Physician or medical officer in your unit?
A  To my knowledge he had no enemies who stated they were enemies.  Yet there was one instance which occurred in the middle of January, which changed the feeling of all members that came to see him in his function as Preventative Medicine Officer, is the drug abuse counselor.
Q  Would you describe that instance to the investigating officer?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this unless it can be shown that it is in some way connected to this particular case.

MR. SEGAL:  I'd like to make an offer of proof.  Perhaps you'd like Captain Williams to be excused, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Williams, would you step outside for a second?
A  Yes, sir.

(Captain Williams withdrew from the hearing room.)

MR. SEGAL:  May it please the investigating officer, one of the aspects, it appears to me, in the prosecution's case, is that there was no motive for anyone else to have inflicted the injuries to Captain MacDonald and to kill his wife and two children.  We intend to show by the testimony of Captain Williams, an episode involving a change of attitude by another personnel of the unit which Captain MacDonald was the preventative medicine officer, which involved persons who had abused various drugs and narcotics.  That the testimony would indicate the circumstances of that and the fact that there came to be the belief that Captain MacDonald was, in fact, reporting to Military Police and other authorities enlisted personnel who were negated in the abuse of drugs.  I think that this is very much to the heart of the matter, since the government feels that there's no motive for other people to have revengeful or other motives against Captain MacDonald and his family.

CPT SOMERS:  In the first place, the government has no such testimony.  In the second place, the simple fact that somebody may have had a change of attitude toward him concerning drug counseling is, as I said, irrelevant, unless it can be shown that some of these people specifically might have been involved in this incident on the evening in question.

MR. SEGAL:  May I just add for the edification of the investigating officer, the government seeks to introduce statements of April 6th, 1970, and if the government had examined the statements carefully, it would find that -- since I expect that they will eventually, probably come in -- that the investigating officer -- investigating agencies, rather, spent considerable periods of time inquiring of Captain MacDonald as to the motives of other persons against him and his family.  They devoted considerable questions to what they considered to be the absence of motive and we intend to show, I think, through the testimony of Captain Williams, and possibly other witnesses, that there was a very substantial circumstance -- we're not necessarily able to identify these, but there were persons who were jeopardized, in danger of severe punishment because of their use of drugs, and what they had told Captain MacDonald, which he in turn was -- as it happened in some of the incidents, was compelled to reveal to other persons.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, your objection is overruled and this witness will be able to testify to this particular matter.

(Captain Williams was recalled and testified further as follows.)

CPT BEALE:  Captain Williams, you are again reminded that you are under oath.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Captain Williams, just prior to your leaving the room, you had started to describe an incident in the middle of January 1970, which you indicated you believed had some effect involving the attitude of personnel in your unit toward Captain MacDonald.
A  Yes, sir.  At the first of January, we started having more and more cases of young men requesting counseling by a doctor.  These were drug abusers that we were trying to kick the habit or get more information.  The command on the post initiated a drug program, to try to give information to these young people.  In my capacity, I would receive calls and schedule almost all these young men to see Captain MacDonald.  He was the only doctor in my group that did counseling to these young men.  To keep continuity, in the middle of January, we were asked by the group surgeon to present a 15 minute talk to the entire 6th Group on the medical aspects of drug abuse.  I assisted Captain Easton in preparing charts and the initial run-through or the practice talk on this.  We all met in the auditorium, in group formation.
     Mr. Pat Reese gave his lecture, Captain Easton gave his talk and then the Chaplain, James Ware, gave his talk.  During the Chaplin's lecture, basically on the morality of drug abuse, or the immorality, he mentioned the fact that he was the only person who had privileged conversation.  In other words, he defined it down to the men that even talking to a doctor is not privileged in this conversation.
Q  Would you please explain what he meant by privileged?
A  He explained by what he meant by privileged, the fact that if it came to a court-martial, a doctor would be called to testify and he would be required, according to Army regulations, he would not be able to shelter an individual.  At the completion of this lecture, many, many people, young men came to me and asked if this was true and I said yes.  Immediately, a noticeable drop in the next week of those people who were scheduled for Captain MacDonald.  And those people that would talk to me as far as anyone counseling them were evasive.  Before they would tell me in general terms why they wanted to see Captain MacDonald, they would ask for him by name.  This next week, in the last part of January, we had almost no drug abuse counseling.  When Captain MacDonald became surgeon, he still counseled those people that were referred by the doctors; in essence, in January, I was scheduling drug abuse patients to be counseled, after the lecture, only those referred by the doctors at the clinic, who were suspected drug abuse, would see Captain MacDonald.
Q  Did you learn from talking to various enlisted personnel that you referred to, that they were suspicious to -- of Captain MacDonald reporting enlisted men to the authorities for drug abuse?
A  The information I received from my medics during the various training, was that Captain MacDonald had the reputation of being a "fink."
Q  When you say he was a "fink", would you tell us that in formal language, at least for the record, so that all may be aware of what you mean by that colloquial term?
A  My medics indicated to me that they believed men were being turned in to CID for being on drugs.
Q  To your knowledge, did Captain MacDonald, in fact, report any men to the CID or the military police authorities for alleged drug abuse that they admitted to him in his counseling sessions?
A  I have no information whatsoever that he ever turned in even one man.
Q  Did you see any CID investigators or military police investigators talking with Captain MacDonald in December, January, up to February 1970?
A  There were no CID, PM investigators or any such personnel around our office talking to Captain MacDonald.
Q  Did any investigators from the CID or the military police call trying to arrange for appointments, that you were aware of, to talk to Captain MacDonald, in this regard?
A  I know of no instances.

MR. SEGAL:  Cross-examine.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Captain Williams, you are not a doctor.  Is that correct?
A  That is correct.
Q  And you're not then fully qualified to judge Captain MacDonald as a doctor, are you?
A  I am qualified to judge him on personnel qualifications and the officer efficiency reports, other than those that involved medical knowledge, technical knowledge.
Q  That's not what I'm asking you.  On his personnel qualifications --

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to, sir.  What's he saying, sir, the best of his observations of Captain MacDonald and a number of other similar rank officers; he's given an estimation in performing his duties as a surgeon, as a physician or officer.  And I think he's had adequate opportunity to observe.  Obviously, he's not the same as Dr. Herter, who can rate him totally from a professional basis, but this witness, on the basis of the qualifications he's given us, namely; his opportunities to observe and compare.  As far as I can make the answer -- question, it's proper.

CPT SOMERS:  This witness has specifically rated Captain MacDonald and gave an opinion on Captain MacDonald's being a supervisor -- medically.

CPT BEALE:  As a layman, Captain Somers.

CPT SOMERS:  That's what I'm inquiring into.  The basis of his opinion and his qualifications to judge.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained.

Continued questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  You've described Captain MacDonald as very stable, is that correct?
A  That's right.
Q  What do you mean by stable?  What does that word mean to you in that context?
A  Captain MacDonald is a highly motivated young man.  He is well oriented --
Q  That's what stable means to you?
A  That's correct.
Q  Now when you saw Captain MacDonald and decided that you thought he was dying, and that he was shocky, didn't you testify that he was just coming out of sedation at that time?
A  At the time I did not know how long he had been out of surgery.  Based upon my non-professional association with war wounds, I thought he was dying.
Q  Captain, that's not what I asked you.

MR. SEGAL:  I object, sir.  The question, if it's unclear, should be rephrased.  The witness answered the question what the witness saw --

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  At the time you saw Captain MacDonald, when you formed the opinion that he was dying and that he was shocky, did you not state that he was just out or coming out of sedation?
A  I don't believe I understand your question, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase it.  Ask the question again, Captain Somers.

Q  When you first saw Captain MacDonald on the 17th, was he under sedation?
A  I have no idea.  I knew he had come out of surgery.
Q  Captain Williams, when you were describing this incident, the first time you saw Captain MacDonald on the 17th, in the direct examination done by Mr. Segal, a few minutes ago, did you not state that Captain MacDonald was just coming out of sedation when you saw him?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  I see.  Now, what are the symptoms which would lead you to believe that?
A  I was told prior to going up that he'd just come out of surgery and in my layman's opinion, surgery denotes anesthesia; therefore, I assumed he was sedated.
Q  Have you, in your limited contacts with the medical profession, seen people under sedation before?
A  Yes, I have.
Q  And are aware of any symptoms which they display?
A  I'm not medically qualified to give the full spectrum of all sedation.
Q  Would you know any of the symptoms?

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.  I think the form of question is improper.

CPT SOMERS:  It's proper, if he's seen sedation.

MR. SEGAL:  Relative to Captain MacDonald, not if he's seen symptoms in others he might have observed.

CPT SOMERS:  This is a medical service officer.  He does receive some medical training and he's worked around medical personnel.  If he knows what some of the symptoms are, then I think he's qualified to say so.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled, Mr. Segal.  Answer the question, if you can.

A  I --

COL ROCK:  Please re-state the question.

Continued questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Would you tell us, if you can, please, what symptoms does a sedated person have that you've seen?  What symptoms would you look for in a sedated person?
A  In a sedated person, that I have seen, many people, I have seen decreased respirations, lower pulse rate -- I don't remember whether pupils are dilated or pinpoint.  I don't know.
Q  Is it possible, then, that some of the symptoms you've described Captain MacDonald displaying might have been the result of sedation?
A  That's correct, with the exception of the eyes.  The people that I've seen die, exhibited to me the same look in the eyes, that glassy, glazed look, was my impression.
Q  How many people have you seen die?
A  Approximately a hundred a month, sir.
Q  For how many months?
A  Twelve months, sir.
Q  Where was this chest tube moved to, specifically?  Would you point out to us again?
A  The initial chest tube was in the lower right.  It was moved higher right, approximately this location.  It would be the upper lobe of the right lung.  Pointing to the area to the right of the lower pectoral muscle on your right chest is as well as I can do.
Q  Did you ever see that chest tube in the right chest just below the clavicle area?
A  I don't remember.  I just remember it was moved from the area in the lower, to the upper area.
Q  You described the injuries to Captain MacDonald's head as you saw them on the 17th.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  Were any of these injuries bleeding?
A  Yes.  As I recollect, the contusion on the left forehead looked as if it had been bleeding.
Q  You've described those contused areas of the forehead as appearing to be horns.  Describe that a little bit more specifically for us?
A  When I looked at him, there appeared to be lumps on his head and they seemed to be the formation of small horns.  I don't know why it struck me this -- I grew up on a farm and raising cattle, I noticed the same little lumps, so thereafter, it struck me that they looked like small immature horns.
Q  Now how far in inches or centimeters were these lumps raised?  Do you know?
A  They were knobs -- they were just -- obviously raised, appeared to be small, little horns, contusions, lumps.
Q  How close did you get to Captain MacDonald on that day?
A  Do you mean in the room, sir?
Q  Yes.  Physically how close?
A  I came to his bedside prior to leaving, on the left side.
Q  Where was it when you first noticed these horns, or contusions?
A  When I first came in the room, I was on the -- by the left side.  I came up almost to his side and then I walked to the foot of the bed.
Q  And at what point did you first notice these lumps?
A  When I first walked into the door and came up to his bedside.  He was not aware I was in the room.  That's why I went to the foot of the bed, so he could see me.
Q  Was there blood on the injury on the right side of the head?
A  Not as I remember.
Q  Could you describe the hair of that injury, did you describe it as matted?
A  That was the one contusion I thought I saw on the back portion of the head.  That was not the front.
Q  You thought you saw it?  Did you see it or didn't you?
A  Yes, I did see it, but I could not tell because the hair was matted, whether it was an actual bump or whether it was just matted hair.  It appeared to be a lump with matted hair.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald participate in this drug seminar which was held before the 6th Special Forces Group?
A  No, he did not.  Captain Easton took it upon himself to give the lectures himself, so as to impart the position of a group surgeon, of authority, so that people would lend a little bit of credibility to this program.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald's name come up during this seminar?
A  No, it did not.
Q  Did anyone besides the Chaplain mention this lack of doctor-patient privilege during that seminar?
A  Not during that seminar.
Q  Did any of the people -- well, do you know who these people were that Captain MacDonald was counseling?
A  At one time I knew almost every patient.
Q  How many were there?
A  In one given day, approximately 4 patients a day.
Q  How many does that total?
A  I must qualify my answer.  By people ETS and normal turnover and returnees, I believe approximately 20 in our group and 2 PSYOPS were being counseled.
Q  To your knowledge, did any of these 20 people ever threaten Captain MacDonald?
A  I knew of only one individual who was very mad when he came out of Captain MacDonald's office.
Q  But I'm asking if any of them ever threatened him?  
A  I was never present during counseling.  I do not know.
Q  Did any of them ever in your presence or to you threaten him?
A  No, they did not.

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.  It's a court-martial offense.  I move to strike the question and the answer.

CPT SOMERS:  I think the issue is entirely relevant and admissible.  It certainly bears on this question of -- that's being raised as to whether any of these people might have had a motive or displayed a motive.

MR. SEGAL:  It is ridiculous in the extreme to ask the witness whether some enlisted man threatened to do bodily harm to another officer and to make that statement to another officer.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled, Mr. Segal.

CPT SOMERS:  I think the question was already answered.

CPT BEALE:  Right.

Q  What is your present personal relationship with Captain MacDonald?  Is he your friend?
A  He is my friend and he is still my doctor.
Q  Would you describe the degree of friendship?  Is he a close friend?
A  I consider him to be a close friend.
Q  Has Captain MacDonald ever made any display of emotions in your presence?
A  He --

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to, the form of the question.  They include laughing, crying, smiling, other things, which I don't think is what the government intends here.

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase it, Captain Somers.

Q  Did he ever make any display of anger or temper in your presence?
A  I've never seen him angry.
Q  Would you say that he hangs on to his emotions pretty well?
A  Yes, he does.

COL ROCK:  Counselor, can you please speed up this questioning process?

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I do have some questions on redirect, sir.  

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  How would you characterize Captain MacDonald's reaction under emotional pressure or stress?
A  Captain MacDonald had the ability to compose himself to the point where he rarely ever shared anger or one-sided emotions, to his benefit.  In other words, he never went to extremes.  He would not share extreme emotions on either end with anyone.
Q  Did you have occasion to be with Captain MacDonald on a situation on June 11, 1970?
A  I was his escort officer that day.
Q  And did something happen that day which you believe was an indication of his responses, his reaction to stress or pressure?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to this.  He's elicited the answer he wants, as to the stability of the accused.

MR. SEGAL:  I think a real -- I'd be glad to have the witness excused and make an offer of proof, if you think it's necessary.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is overruled.  You may proceed.

Q  Captain Williams, would you be good enough to describe to the investigating officer, the episode that you had occur which you referred to on June 11, 1970.
A  That day I was his escort officer.  I reported a little earlier than usual because I was requested by Captain MacDonald to be present at his BOQ earlier.  When I arrived at approximately 7-7:30, I was informed by the MP, who was stationed in front of his door that today was going to be an unusual day and I asked him what was going to happen.  He said, "They're going to take hair samples today and I heard that they're going to bring an MP apprehension team."  I was asking the MP hypothetical questions as to how to protect myself and fully protect Captain MacDonald, according to my orders.  The MP would not tell me anything, so I called Captain Douthat, who was at General Tolson's office, who asked me to inform the MPs or anyone who came to see Captain Mac, please hold off until the lawyers got there, because they were asking for a continuance.  I agreed.  He said he would be there in approximately ten minutes.  That was 8:30.  At 8:50, Mr. Shaw and Mr. Ivory, CID investigators, came into the BOQ and came toward me.  Since I knew them before, I was friendly and was making conversation with them.
Q  Excuse me.  Were there any other persons who came there with those two investigators at the time?
A  Those were the only two people that came inside the BOQ.  They came up and they said -- excuse me.  I was inside the room.  They knocked at the door, I answered the door.  They said, "Is Captain MacDonald in?"  And I said, "Yes, he is."  They said, "Let's go."  I asked them where and they said, "you know, we're going to take him to Womack, we're going to get hair samples.  We're going to take him."  I read them my directives from Colonel Kane that stated that there was no exception, that those people on the access roster, who would have access to Captain MacDonald and I informed them that the lawyers called and said to please wait, they will be there at 0900, and the fact that -- was that I could not change my stand, according to my orders, unless they were changed by Colonel Kane.
Q  Were either of those gentlemen on the access list at that time?
A  No, they were not.
Q  What happened ultimately in that episode?
A  They went and made a call and as they came back, they said, "We realize that we're taking Captain MacDonald under your protest, but we're going to take him."  At that time I backed into the door.  I reaffirmed my orders, reading it to them again.  As they came close to me, Mr. Shaw said, "Don't you realize you're in serious trouble?" They came toward me, Mr. Shaw got right in my face.  At that time the lawyers walked in and I said, "There they are."  They turned around and Captain Douthat informed them as to what happened and they left.
Q  Now during this entire period of time you were having these confrontations with Mr. Ivory and Mr. Shaw and this discussion with the MPs, how did Captain MacDonald respond to all these things that were being advised to you and being said in his presence as to the attempts to cut his hair on that particular day?
A  He was very calm.  We discussed it.  Of course, he was concerned about it because he indicated to me that he thought this was a breach of his rights, but he was composed, he was calm, but a little put out.
Q  Did he show anger?
A  Not exactly anger.  He was just put out by being -- the inconvenience.
Q  Did he offer any way, did he indicate any way, attempt to resist the CID agents or do any physical action against them?
A  No.  We had discussed this prior, at least a week before then, he was not going to resist.
Q  Now the government raised some questions on cross-examination about your observations of persons who appeared to be about to die of a serious injury.  Did you serve in a combat assignment?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  What was your combat assignment?
A  I was a medical platoon leader, in addition to a field medic assistant in a field medical company of an air mobile division, with medevac.
Q  I observe that on your chest you have the Purple Heart.  Does that indicate that you yourself have personal experience with injuries?
A  My company was a hundred percent destroyed.
Q  Did you yourself have serious injuries, Captain Williams?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you receive services of medical personnel and treatment?
A  Yes, I did, sir.
Q  Based upon your own observations and knowledge of what happened to yourself and the observations you've made of various persons who were treated that you were with, did you form some opinion as to Captain MacDonald's condition as to sedation, as you saw him on the day of the 17th?
A  The primary thought in my mind was he was dying, after which I realized that he's come out of surgery.
Q  Did you form some opinion as to whether he, in any way, seemed to you to be a person who had received sedatives and was coming wake or what was the opinion that you formed?
A  That he had just come out of surgery.
Q  Did you form an opinion as to whether he had received sedatives?
A  I assumed he had.
Q  Now you also said that Captain MacDonald had been characterized by some of the men as being a "fink."  Do you believe that was an accurate characterization of the kind of man and officer Captain MacDonald was?
A  Absolutely not.

MR. SEGAL:  That's all I have.  Any re-cross?

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Now this incident when Mr. Shaw and Mr. Ivory came to the BOQ room, how long did that incident last?
A  From 0850 to 0900, ten minutes, sir.
Q  And at this time, we're talking about a conversation between you and the two CID agents.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  You were pretty well bound up in that confrontation weren't you?
A  That's correct.
Q  How did you have occasion to be observing Captain MacDonald, in that case?
A  I observed him immediately after the CID agents left.
Q  Oh, immediately afterwards?
A  That's correct.
Q  But not during?
A  Not during.

CPT SOMERS:  I now then request that all testimony regarding that incident be stricken as irrelevant.

MR. SEGAL:  May I suggest that the government hardly developed where Captain MacDonald was physically located and where Captain Williams was physically located.  He has not indicated where he was not in the purview, in the area where Captain Williams was, necessarily.  I wouldn't expect him to observe every moment, to be aware of what the man was doing and reacting.  One is quite obviously aware that I could be talking to Colonel Rock, as I am now, sir, and still be aware of what Captain Douthat on my right and beneath me is doing, without necessarily saying I am looking at him.  I think until the government establishes those whereabouts and those locations, the motion is premature and out of order.  I think the witness has stated that he did not observe Captain MacDonald during the period of his confrontations.  I don't think it could be put any better than that.

COL ROCK:  Captain Williams, can you more fully explain your answer of "no"?  I think I recall during part of your testimony, you were in and out of the room?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  During that time --

COL ROCK:  During that period, do you mean that absolutely "no," you did not observe him at all or any of his reactions?  Can you elucidate at all on your answer?

WITNESS:  Prior to going out, I observed where he was at.  When I went outside, I then shut the door.  At one time, when they went to make the phone call, I checked again to make sure he was there and he was there.  At that time, this in my opinion of his emotional state then -- what he looked like then.  I shut the door.  I knew where he was at.

COL ROCK:  You just then glanced at him as you looked into the room?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I'd like to say, sir, with the -- regard to the question, while I don't pretend to be an expert, I don't think it requires expertise to indicate that signs of stress or emotional strain do not necessarily disappear instantaneously, particular in view of the -- I think -- somewhat traumatic circumstances, and I think Captain Williams did testify on direct examination, of course, that he went immediately back into the room with Captain MacDonald, was engaged in conversation.  I think it's further implied that that is also a part of the observations that he made.

COL ROCK:  Captain Williams, do you feel if somebody comes to get a piece of your hair, this would be a stressful situation?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  You do.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Somers, your motion to strike all the previous testimony relative to this is denied.  You may continue questioning, if you desire.

COL ROCK:  I have a couple of questions, if you have no further questions.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions at this time, sir.

COL ROCK:  Do you have anything, Mr. Segal?

MR. SEGAL:  No, sir.

Questions by COL ROCK:
Q  Captain Williams, did you report to Captain MacDonald that you had heard second-hand that he was considered a "fink"?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  What was his reaction to your statement?
A  It was just a joke, sir, it was in passing.  Wasn't even considered.
Q  Did you personally ever hear anyone say that you -- that they considered him a fink?
A  No, sir.  Only in generalities.
Q  What do you mean, only in generalities?  Did you ever hear in general say something similar to that to you?
A  Yes, sir.  It was brought out during a discussion our medical MOS training, that it was hard -- well, I got this -- not exactly --
Q  Did anyone ever tell you that they thought that he was a fink or anything like that?
A  No, sir, not Captain MacDonald.
Q  In other words, it was hearsay.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you say that Captain MacDonald bottles up his emotions?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what do you mean when you say he bottles up his emotions?
A  I think he keeps sorrow and extreme happiness to himself.  He, in my relationship with him, working relationship, he demanded perfection.  In all the sections, he took full responsibility for the bad and the good and he would not show excessive emotions either way.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  If I may, sir.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  In regard to the question put to you, Captain, did Captain MacDonald appear to you to be a person who is hiding his true emotions or hiding his true feelings?
A  No, his true feeling he showed, except any excesses.  Any anger, any extreme happiness.  That was the only time he guarded it.
Q  Did he appear to be a person who was holding back any of his emotions that were under pressure or he was not one to reveal to others how he felt about certain facts and situations in which he was involved?

CPT SOMERS:  I object to the form of that question.

COL ROCK:  Could you rephrase that question to make it a simpler, please.

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, I'd be glad to.

Q  Have you ever had occasion, Captain Williams, to know people who you believe were not giving of their emotions, but gave signs of having strong emotional feelings beneath the surface?
A  Yes, I have.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald appear to you to be that sort of person, who was holding back his emotions, but would not show the signs of them under pressure?
A  Exactly.
Q  So was he the kind of person who was hiding his emotions from you?
A  He did not try to hide emotions, because hiding itself infers that there was a deliberate attempt to give you some sort of indication that he had it.  He never showed it in the first place.
Q  You are referring to what?
A  Extreme anger and extreme happiness.

MR. SEGAL:  That's all.  Thank you very much.

CPT SOMERS:  No questions.

COL ROCK:  Captain Williams, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I do.

COL ROCK:  You are excused, subject to recall.

(Captain Williams withdrew from the hearing room.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will be recessed until 1330 this afternoon.

(The hearing recessed at 1110 hours, 11 August 1970.)
Webmaster note: 
The original stenographer's misspelling of Tolsen was corrected to Tolson in this transcript.