Article 32 Hearing
Volume 10

July 24, 1970

CW1 Robert Shaw (CID)

(The hearing reopened at 0843 hours, 24 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  This hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are apparently in the hearing room with the exception of the witness.  Is the government ready to proceed?

CPT THOMPSON:  At this time the government recalls for cross examination Mr. Robert Shaw.

(Warrant Officer Shaw reported and was reminded of his oath.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mr. Shaw, who was in charge on February 17th, 1970, of the investigation of the murders at the MacDonald house?
A  Mr. Grebner.
Q  Mr. Grebner?  How about between about 0400 until the time which Mr. Grebner arrived, which was about, I think, about 0650?  Who was in charge at that time?
A  That would have been Mr. Ivory.
Q  You yourself, was not the person in charge say the initial period until Mr. Grebner arrived?
A  That's correct.
Q  And thereafter when Mr. Grebner came on the scene was he in charge merely because he was the senior member of your detachment, or was he actually the person assigned to be in charge of this investigation?
A  Mr. Grebner is the chief investigator, and as such, is in charge of all investigations.  And in this particular instance -- incident -- he took charge in that he directed certain persons to do certain things in line with the investigation.
Q  And how long did he continue to remain in charge of the investigation?
A  He never relinquished that.
Q  So that as far as you are concerned he has remained in charge of the investigation since the time of his arrival on the scene in the early morning hours of the 17th?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Now the weapons that were found outside the MacDonald household under the bush, did you cause them to be examined for fingerprints?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And were they, in fact, examined for fingerprints?
A  Yes, sir, they were.
Q  And were Captain MacDonald's fingerprints found on any of those weapons?
A  I told you they were not.
Q  Did you receive an official report back from the laboratory, particularly from the fingerprints experts in regard to the findings on the weapons found outside the house?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And have you read that report?
A  Yes, sir, I have.
Q  Did the report indicate that there were fingerprints on the particular weapons?
A  The report indicated that -- and the examiner told me, both -- that there appeared to be fingerprints which were unidentifiable.  In other words smudges.
Q  That they were what?
A  Smudges.
Q  What about the knife that was found inside of the master bedroom?  Did you cause that also to be examined for fingerprints?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Was Captain MacDonald's fingerprints found on that knife?
A  It was the same with the knife.
Q  Well, what is your answer to my --
A  There were smudges, unidentifiable smudges.
Q  The first question was, was Captain MacDonald's fingerprints found on the knife in the bedroom?
A  His fingerprints were not identified as being on the knife.
Q  You do not have any evidence that his fingerprints were on that knife in the bedroom, do you?
A  That is correct.
Q  Were any prints found on the knife in the bedroom?
A  There were fingerprint smudges found on the knife.
Q  But they could not be identified with any clarity.  Is that right?
A  That's right.

MR. SEGAL:  Now, may I see the knives, please?

Q  Now, I want to ask you to look at the knife marked as G-82, which has the name "Old Hickory" on it.  This knife was found where?
A  This knife was found outside the quarters under the bush, as I testified earlier.
Q  Now may I direct your attention to the top part of this knife and the area of the knife that is covered by the handle, and ask you whether you observe anything unusual about the condition of the wood on the handle here?
A  May I examine it closer?
Q  Yes, sir, please do.
A  Yes, I do.
Q  Would you describe, if you could, please, to the investigating officer what appears to be unusual about the top part of the wooden handle?
A  Part of the wood has been removed.
Q  And could you indicate to us abut how long the section or sections that have been removed are?  In fact, I offer you a tape measure which you can use to assist you in that regard.
A  One section is approximately a half an inch, closer to 9/16ths, and the other section is approximately an inch long, both from the right hand side of the handle as I look at it.
Q  Thank you so much.  Do you have any idea of when or how those pieces of wooden handle were removed?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  Would you tell the investigating officer, please?
A  Yes, to the best of my knowledge, those sections were removed at the laboratory for analysis.
Q  And for what was the analysis conducted?
A  For what reason?
Q  Yes.  What particular features was the laboratory supposed to examine when they made the analysis?
A  There was an attempt by the laboratory to -- well, the knife was disassembled at the laboratory -- an attempt to determine whether any identifiable blood stains on the knife or other body fluids.
Q  Including the knife material itself within the confines of the handle portion?
A  Yes.
Q  So that the knife, actually, when it was found by you and the other military policemen on the morning of the 17th, was in a slightly different condition than it appears to be today?
A  Yes, that is correct.
Q  Are there any photographs available of the knife in its original condition as found under the bush before the laboratory disassembled the handle?
A  Yes, sir, I believe there is.
Q  Do you have such photographs in your own file?
A  If the photograph exists it's in the CID files, yes.

MR. SEGAL:  May it please the investigating officer, at this time we would call upon the government to make available a photograph that Mr. Shaw has reason to believe that was taken of this particular knife in its original condition.  We would not ask for any delay at this time, but ask that it be supplied to us sometime by midday, if we can.

COL ROCK:  May I ask the purpose for this?

MR. SEGAL:  We think it may be relevant to the further cross examination either of this witness or any other government witness so that we may determine the exact appearance of the weapon, to determine whether there were any unusual features about it on that portion which has been removed, which may have been further clues or evidence that was either -- to aid the defense in some portion or provide us an opportunity to cross-examine.  For instance, if the knife had splinters in that section, might splinters have caught some fibers, might they have caught someone's hand?  We cannot even tell, not knowing the exact original condition of the knife as found by the government's investigator.

CPT THOMPSON:  Colonel, the witness has adequately, more than adequately testified about the condition of the knife at the time it was found, and adequately testified as to its status now and how it got in that state.  The picture is going to serve no better purpose or no further purpose to aid the defense in either cross-examination or ferreting out whether splinters, et cetera, may or may not have been on it.  The witness has adequately answered all the questions.  I might add that most of these questions were hearsay, but out of his own knowledge, he has adequately explained the state of the knife at the time it was found and its state now.

COL ROCK:  The motion is denied.  Proceed, please.

Q  Mr. Shaw, yesterday you testified as to having looked into both the south bedroom and the north bedroom almost immediately after you arrived at the crime scene.  Am I correct in that regard?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what was the lighting conditions as far as -- say in the south bedroom that enabled you to make any observations?
A  There was a ceiling light which was turned on.
Q  How about the north bedroom?  Was there any lights on at that time?
A  There was a ceiling light which was turned on.
Q  Now I direct your attention to the south bedroom in which the body of Kimberly MacDonald was found.  I believe you testified yesterday that you observed that there was blood on the bed, on the bed sheets underneath the body of that child, which you observed, I think, after the body was removed.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  And would you indicate to us about how large an area of blood there was on the bed sheet?
A  It was perhaps a foot and a half in diameter.
Q  And was it still moist or wet in any fashion?
A  To the extent that it was tacky to touch, it was starting to coagulate.
Q  You also testified that there was a blanket -- there was a blanket wrapped around under the body of Kimberly MacDonald.  Do you recall that?  And that the blanket was, in fact, at the time that you saw it, removed from her body actually under her legs, and under, I think, part of her thigh, and between her body and the sheet.  Is that correct?
A  No, I didn't testify to that.  I said that it was wrapped under her, and I don't believe I gave those specifics.
Q  Well, do you recall to what extent the blanket was wrapped underneath the body of Kristen MacDonald -- or Kimberly MacDonald?
A  Yes, sir, as I recall the blanket was, it has been under her, her hip, her left hip, and extended upward to her armpit.
Q  Would you tell the investigating officer how much blood you found on the blanket that was wrapped in around the body of Kimberly MacDonald at this time?
A  How much blood I found on it?
Q  Yes, sir, on the blanket.
A  I didn't examine that blanket for those blood stains.
Q  Did you observe any blood at all on that blanket that was wrapped around the body of Kimberly?
A  I didn't open that blanket up and look at it on the scene there for fear of losing something out of the blanket.  Now, it's since been to the laboratory and there has been blood identified on it according to the laboratory reports.
Q  Mr. Shaw, didn't you tell us yesterday, that you, yourself, pulled that blanket to the foot of the bed?
A  I did.
Q  And at that time you pulled the blanket down to the foot of the bed, did you or did you not observe blood on the blanket, or reddish stains which appeared to be blood?
A  As I pulled it down to the foot of the bed, I would not have been able to see the blanket, because the sheet was over it, the top sheet.  I took all of the bedding and pulled it down.
Q  All right, tell us what you observed on that top sheet in the way of reddish-brown stains?
A  I don't remember seeing any stains on that sheet.
Q  Do you recall at any time seeing any reddish-brown stains on the blanket itself on February 17th?

CPT THOMPSON:  I object to that question.  He's already answered that.  He did not recall seeing any stains on the blanket and he has explained why he did not.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  Now you testified that you went into the north bedroom in which the body of Kristen MacDonald was found, and that you were there present when Doctor Neal examined her.  Am I correct in that regard?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  I believe you also testified yesterday that you were present when Doctor Neal turned the body of Kristen MacDonald into a different position for the purpose of making his examination?
A  That's correct.
Q  Now I believe I also heard you testify yesterday that when he turned her body for the purpose of observing or examining her back, that you gasped.  Am I correct in that regard?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you tell the investigating officer what was the circumstances that caused you to gasp?
A  Probably because I was concerned with the protection of the crime scene.  Doctor Neal had been asked not to disturb the crime scene, to disturb the crime scene as little as possible.  This was my primary thought at the time.
Q  And that, as far as you recall, was the reason for your gasping when he turned the body.  Is that correct?
A  Not so much that he had turned the body, but that he had moved the blankets and that sort of thing while he was doing it.
Q  Now you were present in the master bedroom also at the time that the bath mat and the blue pajama top were found.  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  About what time did you participate in the examination of those two items?
A  This was just before the removal of the body from that room.  I would say -- I'd have to estimate it was 0755 hours, approximately that.
Q  Prior to that time, had you had occasion to examine the bath mat or the pajama top?
A  Yes, a visual examination.
Q  I assume that you just examined those items in place at an earlier time?
A  That's correct.
Q  Now at this later time I believe you described the procedure whereby Mr. Ivory lifted the mat up with a pair of tongs.  Is that right?
A  As I recall.
Q  Well, did it, in fact, happen that way?
A  Yes.
Q  Are you certain about that?
A  My memory tells me that that's the way it happened.
Q  Did you have occasion to discuss the subject of how the bath mat and pajamas were handled yesterday at a break in the afternoon with Captain Thompson?
A  No, I did not.
Q  You did not.  Have you discussed it with anybody at all since the commencement of these hearings as to how the pajama top and the bath mat were handled?

CPT THOMPSON:  I object to that question as to whether or not he has discussed it since the commencement of these hearings.  He is certainly allowed to discuss it prior to the commencement of these hearings, prior to his testimony in this hearing room.

MR. SEGAL:  Not with any witness who was here, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Thompson, your objection is sustained.

Q  Now, which item was touched or handled first by Mr. Ivory?
A  It would have been the pajama top.
Q  And why do you answer in that fashion?  Is there some reason why you characterized "it would have been" in that fashion?
A  Yes, sir, there is, because the pajama top was that piece of the evidence of the two which would have been more or most easily contaminated.
Q  Contaminated by what?
A  In any way, by being stepped on or having something dropped on it, or being disturbed in some fashion because it was most accessible to personnel working there at the scene.
Q  And did you also consider the fact that it was lighter, substantially lighter of the two garments, and therefore more easily moved?
A  Well, sir, it was the only garment.
Q  Well, as between the white bath mat and the blue pajama top, did you also consider the fact that it was substantially lighter than the bath mat and therefore more susceptible to being moved?
A  That didn't occur to me.
Q  Now, we've described, well, you've described exactly where -- will you describe exactly where you were and where Mr. Ivory was, and the steps and action in examining, first of all, the pajama top?
A  At that time?
Q  Yes, please.  I am assuming that's the first time that you saw anybody actually handling that particular item?
A  That's correct.
Q  I'm assuming also that's the first time you, yourself, saw anyone do anything more than make a visual observation of that item.
A  That's correct.
Q  Now would you please tell us what actually happened in some details?
A  Yes.  As I testified earlier, the medics were there to remove the body, so Ivory and I decided to collect that evidence that was on the body.  And he went into the bedroom first and I followed him.  He moved to approximately the left shoulder region of the cadaver, perhaps closer to her chest area, between her and the bed, and I would have been to the west of him towards the doorway, perhaps a foot away.  I had obtained a plastic bag.  I opened the bag and he bent down, picked up the trailing edge.
Q  Where was the trailing edge located?
A  It would have been towards me, perhaps by my right foot.
Q  Now let me show you accused Exhibit 6.

(A-6 was shown to the IO and to counsel for the government.)

Q  Might I ask you, Mr. Shaw, if you would perhaps hold the photograph when you describe the procedure Mr. Ivory and you used in picking up this cloth so they can follow it by looking at the particular photograph.
A  Who do I show it to?  The investigating officer?
Q  Yes, I think we can all see it if you show it to the investigating officer.
A  All right.  I would have been standing probably by her ankles, her left ankle.  Ivory would have been near her chest region, between her and the bed, he reached down and picked up the trailing edge of the pajama top.
Q  Now where is that?
A  This is the trailing edge.  Where specifically he grasped, I don't know, and as he picked it up he reached down with his right hand and picked up the other one.
Q  The other what?
A  Picked up the other end of the pajama top off the body.
Q  First of all, you say with his right hand.
A  Yes, I think so.
Q  The tongs were in which hand?
A  I assume he had two.
Q  Well, you are not certain?
A  I'm as certain as my memory tells me that's what he did.  He had two.
Q  Do you have a specific recollection of seeing Mr. Ivory using two tongs at that time?
A  No.
Q  Now at least with one hand --
A  I know Ivory always uses two.
Q  But you feel certain that with one hand he had a pair of tongs?
A  Yes.
Q  The other one you are not sure about at this time?
A  That's correct.
Q  Continue, if you will, using the photograph showing to the investigating officer how that was handled.
A  Well, he picked up the other end off the body, as I said.
Q  Could you be somewhat more specific as to what position or the nearest portion of the body he was grasping the blue cloth with his right hand?
A  Somewhere near the top of the body as it's laying there.
Q  You mean the left shoulder area?
A  I mean the most high area, say about the sternum.
Q  Excuse me?
A  About the sternum, probably.  So he lifted them up and I opened the sack underneath it and he dropped it in the sack.
Q  How much of the pajama top was across Mrs. MacDonald's chest area?
A  What do you mean, how much of it?
Q  Well, I gather you said that Mr. Ivory's hand grabbed the pajama top at the sternum which is about mid-chest.  Is that right?  It's quite clear however that the pajama top goes beyond mid-chest line and appears to go toward the -- over the right side of Mrs. MacDonald.  Is that right?
A  As I recall, yes, sir.
Q  So that when he grasped the pajama top at her sternum, there was still some other portion of the pajama top which was beyond his right hand?
A  Yes.
Q  Now how was that lifted?
A  It was lifted as a whole piece.
Q  Now will you show me, perhaps using your own hands, how he maneuvered this with his left hand and his right hand, to show us how he deposited it into the bag?
A  As I testified, he lifted the trailing edge first, and he would have brought his left hand about to his body, close to his body, and then he reached down and grasped the part that was on her chest, and as I remember he just brought them together, lifted them up, and I put the sack underneath and he dumped them into the sack.
Q  At this point, if you could be a little bit more specific it would be helpful to us.  Did he lift the two ends first up before bringing the ends together?

CPT THOMPSON:  I'll object to this questioning.  The witness has testified at great length both on direct and cross examination as to how the pajama top was lifted, the manner, and the fact that they did finally find their way into the sack.  Any more details would be merely accumulative.

MR. SEGAL:  I would be glad to make an offer of proof out of the hearing of the witness.

CPT BEALE:  Very well.  Mr. Shaw, you are excused temporarily.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

MR. SEGAL:  The government has, on a number of times with a number of witnesses, made a substantial issue; it seems to me, of the location of blue fibers in or about the master bedroom and where they were located.  I assume that it relates to some theory the government has in this case.  It seems to me quite critical to establish how it was actually handled, when it was removed from the body of Mrs. MacDonald, because the condition of the blue garment, as I observed it the other day, had even at that time, threads dangling from it.  It seems to me we ought to know if it was lifted high, what was the possibility at that time of the fibers coming from it or being dropped in locations other than on the body or near the body.  We cannot tell that from the government's examination.  The government's examination seems to be very superficial, that is they grabbed it and put it in the bag with tongs.  That doesn't tell us whether they dragged it over the body, they lifted it up from the body, where they moved it or how they moved it; and it seems to me, if the government is to be allowed to use this kind of evidence of the fibers, imperative that we understand the exact mechanics of the handling of this particular garment by the only people who admitted to having touched it.

CPT THOMPSON:  Assuming for a moment that the examination on direct by the government was superficial, this witness, on cross examination now, has gone into great detail as to how Mr. Ivory in his observation lifted the garment from the body of Mrs. MacDonald, and the relative position of both hands, where the bag was placed, and the fact that it was dropped in.  Again, any more detailed description of how this garment was, in fact, lifted or how it was placed into the bag is merely cumulative in nature.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Thompson, your objection is overruled.  Call the witness in, please.

(The witness returned to the hearing room.)

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mr. Shaw, would you pick up the description again of the process of recovering the blue pajama top from the point from which you said that Mr. Ivory having grabbed it with his two hands then removed it from the body?  I believe the question I asked specifically was, how did the lifting actually take place by Mr. Ivory, in what direction did he move it, if you recall, and what height the garment was held or any other specifics along that line?
A  As I remember --

COL ROCK:  Excuse me, counselor.  It would assist me, I think, and simplify, perhaps, if the witness could also act out what he saw.

MR. SEGAL:  I agree entirely, sir, and I would be indebted to you, Mr. Shaw, if you would actually place yourself in the position of Mr. Ivory, and go through the process of simulating the lifting of the garment.

A  I'll try.
Q  And please talk your way through your actions for the record.
A  As I recall, if the body was lying this way, with the head towards Captain MacDonald and the feet toward Captain Beale, Ivory would have been at about her chest region, as I testified.
Q  Do you want to use the photograph?
A  I'm just trying to reconstruct the scene in my mind, sir.  The bed would have been to Ivory's rear and I was over in this area (pointing to his left).  As I recall, he reached and got the trailing end this way.
Q  You are indicating with your left hand?
A  Yes, with his left hand and brought it back to his chest over the body.
Q  Just hold it at that point.  You indicated that Mr. Ivory was crouching.  Then he grasped the trailing edge of the pajama top, with the left hand, that the left hand was extended from the body at that point?
A  Yes, I think so.
Q  Then he went in the process of lifting the trailing edge, brought the left hand from the extended position about in front of him, and at the same time he was coming to an apparent standing position, bringing the trailing edge up with him.
A  No, no, I think Ivory would have still been in somewhat of a crouch.
Q  All right, but not the same crouch he originally started from?
A  I don't remember that.
Q  All right, go on from there, please, if you will.
A  All right, sir.  He's in a crouch and he has the trailing edge here close to his chest like this and he reached down and got the -- with his right hand -- and got the main part of the body of the pajama jacket, and then he straightened his knees and lifted his right hand with the grasped pajama top.  At this point I did place the plastic bag under the pajama and it was dropped in.  Then I closed it and wrapped the plastic bag.
Q  Just stay as you were.  Did you have to move closer than where you were when Mr. Ivory started the lifting process in order to put your plastic bag in a position that he did put the garment into?
A  I think I did.
Q  And did you come to a position where you straddled the body actually for the purpose of holding the bag so that Mr. Ivory could conveniently put it into the bag?
A  No.
Q  Did you move along side of Mr. Ivory?
A  I probably took a half a step closer to him.
Q  Now, If I may have Captain Douthat stand in the position that you are now standing, and if you would then show us please, and if you would place Captain Douthat's hands in an appropriate position to indicate how you believe Mr. Ivory was holding the garment which he had lifted from the body?  Would you do that?
A  I don't have the specific recollection as to where his hands were exactly, which was higher or lower.
Q  Just for the purpose of demonstration, if you will place his hands --
A  It would have been approximately over the chest and left chest area of the body of Mrs. MacDonald.
Q  Now will you take the position in which you were standing while you watched Mr. Ivory follow this procedure and then come up and assume the position that you did for the purpose of placing the plastic bag beneath the items?
A  I was standing between the trailing edge of the pajama jacket and the footboard of the bed when he started this process, and I was ready with the bag, and I took a half a step and just put the bag under the pajama jacket with both hands holding the bag open.
Q  Did you have to bend to get under the garment, between the garment and the body?
A  Oh, yes, I suspect I did.
Q  How big was the plastic bag which you were using -- its dimensions, please?
A  Approximately -- perhaps three feet long, two and a half to three feet long.
Q  How wide at the mouth?
A  Quite wide, a foot and a half, two feet.
Q  So is it fair to assume that that bag touched the body of Mrs. MacDonald?
A  Not necessarily, no.
Q  Well if you would take a tape measure, please, and extend that for the depth of the bag --
A  The bag was not fully extended.
Q  If the bag was fully extended, it's fair to that the bag would have touched the body?
A  Yes, but these bags don't always open all the way.  They are plastic.  We see them -- sometimes they cling together.
Q  Well, was it necessary for Mr. Ivory to stuff the garment into the bag to get it fully in?

CPT THOMPSON:  Objection.  That's completely irrelevant.  That -- there's no testimony yet that he stuffed it in.

CPT BEALE:  Overruled.

Q  Now, would you extend the ruler, if you would, please, to the length that you think the plastic bag was extended which you were using?
A  I don't have any memory about that.  I don't know.
Q  Well, did you open the bag first in preparation for Mr. Ivory?
A  The mouth of the bag, yes.
Q  How about the length of the bag?  Did you make any preparation so that the garment could go inside without being touched or moved too much in the process of being put in the bag?
A  I opened the mouth of the bag.
Q  All right, didn't you cause the bag to be extended?
A  Not necessarily.  Having worked with these bags a lot, I know that the slightest weight will open them up so that the object to be placed in will be allowed to fall into the bottom of the bag.
Q  And did that happen when the blue pajama top was placed in there?
A  I don't know.  I don't remember.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you, Captain Douthat, and thank you, Mr. Shaw.

Q  Now would you describe, please, the procedure of removing the white bath mat from Mrs. MacDonald's stomach area?
A  I don't know that I can, to the extent that I described this, because of the trailing edge and because of the decision to collect that first, which stands out in my memory.  I do know that this was a joint effort on our part and it would probably been somewhat the same.
Q  Well, did he use a tong on the bath mat?
A  I don't remember.
Q  Was it necessary to move any part of Mrs. MacDonald's body in removing either of the two items, either the blue pajama top or the white bath mat?
A  I have no memory of her body being moved, no.
Q  Any portion of her body?
A  I have no memory of this.
Q  Mr. Shaw, do you recall the position of Mrs. MacDonald's right hand at the time that the white bath mat was removed from her?
A  I recall that it was -- her upper arm was approximately parallel with her body, and her right forearm was extending down towards the juncture of the legs and her hand was lying on her body, as I recall.
Q  And what had to be done, if anything, with her hand, for the purpose of removing either of the two garments you are referring to, the bath mat or the blue pajama top?
A  As I recall, nothing.
Q  Now I ask you to look at the photograph marked A-5 for identification.

(A-5 was shown to the IO and to counsel for the government.)

MR. SEGAL:  May we withdraw that, sir, and mark a new photograph which I think may be more helpful?

COL ROCK:  Counselor this has already been introduced into evidence as G-47.  If you will look at them you will find that they are identical.

MR. SEGAL:  That is correct, sir.  We withdraw the offer of the photograph.

Q  And I will show you, Mr. Shaw, a photograph previously identified as G-47, and ask if you recognize the scene portrayed in that photograph?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  This is the upper portion of Mrs. MacDonald's body lying on the floor of the bedroom.  Is that correct?  Can you observe the position of her right hand in this area?
A  Yes, I can.
Q  And where is it in regard to the white bath mat?
A  A portion of the mat appears to be under her right hand.
Q  Now do you know how the bath mat was extracted from beneath her hand without moving her arm, or her wrist or her hand?
A  I have testified I don't have any specific memory about the removal of this white towel other than it was a joint effort.  However, I can tell you by experience with other dead bodies I've seen in this situation that I suppose it was just pulled out from underneath it without moving the hand.
Q  Do you have any recollection of how that was done in Mrs. MacDonald's case?
A  No.
Q  What about the blue pajama top?  Does a portion of the blue pajama top appear to be in contact with some portion of Mrs. MacDonald's right hand and right wrist?
A  By the angle of the photograph it appears to be in some contact, yes.
Q  Do you know when that garment was lifted by Mr. Ivory whether, in fact, it was in actual contact or underneath any portion of Mrs. MacDonald's hand?
A  I don't believe it was underneath her hand.
Q  Can you say with any certainty that it was not?
A  My recollection tells me it wasn't.
Q  Is that the same thing you are saying -- you can say with certainty it was not touching any portion of her right hand?
A  No, it isn't.
Q  Now how many people were present in the master bedroom when Mrs. MacDonald's body was examined by Doctor Neal?
A  I remember Doctor Neal and myself, Mr. Ivory, and perhaps one other person, but I'm not certain.
Q  Do you have any idea who the other person was?
A  Yes, if he was there it would have been Mr. Rossi, who was assisting us.
Q  Was any military policeman in the room at the time?
A  No.
Q  How about when Doctor Neal examined the body of Kimberly MacDonald in the south bedroom, who was there?
A  As I recall, there was Doctor Neal, and Mr. Ivory, Mr. Connolly perhaps, and myself.
Q  How about when Doctor Neal examined the body of Kristen MacDonald in the north bedroom?  How many people were present?  Who were the people that were present at that time?
A  The same persons.
Q  Well, will you name them again, please, with regard to the north bedroom?
A  Doctor Neal, myself, Mr. Ivory and Mr. Connolly.
Q  Now when the bodies were removed or about to be removed, you indicated that a Chaplain came into the MacDonald house?
A  That's correct.
Q  And I believe you described yesterday that he performed certain acts which you characterized as being a religious service of some sort?
A  That's right.
Q  Where did that take place?
A  In the hallway.
Q  At the time were the two children's bodies on the stretcher?
A  Yes, they were.
Q  Were they on the wheeled stretcher or on the stretcher that had no supports on it?
A  They were on the canvas field stretcher.
Q  Field stretcher.  Had the stretcher been put down in the hallway while the medics were removing the bodies?
A  Yes, sir, it had been set on the floor.
Q  And could you indicate to us what area of the stretcher, where the stretcher had been set on the floor with reference to the north and south bedroom?  And would it help you if you would use the --
A  No, I think I can accurately describe where they were.
Q  All right, tell us where they were.
A  The stretcher was closer to the south wall than it was to the north wall, just off the center in the hallway, and the eastern most end of the stretcher, the handles of it, just protruded past the door of the south bedroom.
Q  You saw the medics go in and bring out the body of which room first?
A  Of the two girls?
Q  Yes.
A  Kristen MacDonald.
Q  And they carried the body of Kristen MacDonald from the north bedroom and placed it on which end of the stretcher?
A  The stretcher --
Q  The most easterly portion or the westerly portion, the eastern being toward the master bedroom, the west being toward the living room.
A  Her head was toward the east end of the stretcher.
Q  Point then towards the master bedroom?
A  Correction, towards the west end.
Q  The body of Kimberly MacDonald was then removed by the medics from the south bedroom.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And was placed on which end of the stretcher, and head facing which direction?
A  Her head was facing with -- towards the west, and she was placed on the east end of the stretcher.
Q  Now was it at that point that the Chaplain performed the religious service?
A  Yes.
Q  Was he actually standing in the corridor of the MacDonald house when the medics removed the bodies of the children?
A  I don't know.
Q  When did you first become aware of him, Mr. Shaw?
A  When Kimberly was placed on the stretcher.
Q  And then what happened when Kimberly was placed on the stretcher or called your attention?
A  I heard someone say, "Here's the Chaplain."
Q  And did you observe the man whom you have described yesterday coming from the living room area?
A  When I first saw him, he was in the hallway.
Q  He was already standing in the hallway?
A  Yes.
Q  All right, now what did he do at that time?
A  He approached the stretcher, he bent down over it.  I think what he did was make the sign of the cross on the foreheads of the two girls.  I think that's what he did.
Q  And did he say anything?  Whether you understood him or not is not important.  Did you hear him say anything?
A  No I didn't hear him say anything.
Q  And then after the Chaplain had performed whatever service he did perform, what happened next?
A  He stood up and he turned around and he left.
Q  And then what's the next thing that happened?
A  The medics moved to the ends of the stretcher, lifted it up and carried it out of the quarters.
Q  And then what did you do when they lifted the stretcher?
A  I watched them.
Q  What else did you watch?  Did you watch them carry it away, or did you go about your business?
A  Well, I followed the stretcher down the hallway to the east entrance of the hallway, the living room entrance, and watched them carry it out of the house.

COL ROCK:  Counselor, can you indicate how much longer you will be with this witness?  I understood you were anxious to --

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, I would say no more than fifteen minutes, at the maximum.  Just a very few minutes left.

Q  Mr. Shaw, you described for us yesterday a feather found in the living room of the MacDonald house.  Is that right?
A  That's incorrect.
Q  Where was it found?
A  I didn't testify about a feather.
Q  Did you see any feather in the MacDonald house?
A  I saw many feathers in the MacDonald's --
Q  Decorative feathers?
A  Feathers?
Q  Well, where did you see any in the living room?
A  There was a feather -- I don't remember seeing a feather in the living room -- but I know that one appears in the photographs.  I don't remember seeing it.
Q  All right, now do you recall in fact that part of the -- as part of the decoration in the living room that there were some colorful feathers in a jar or vase of some sort?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Did you see in any portion of the house, decorative feathers?
A  I recalled seeing feathers in the south bedroom, and I recall seeing a feather on top of a chest of drawers in the master bedroom, which appeared to be decorative.
Q  Could you indicate to us roughly the size of the feathers that you saw in the master bedroom and the house -- and in the south bedroom?
A  Well, the feather I saw in the master bedroom I would say was three or four inches long.  I just know there were feathers in the south bedroom.  Now whether they were supposed to be decorative or whether they were part of a child's toy, I don't know.
Q  Did you observe feathers on a desk in the living room of the MacDonald house?
A  I don't remember.
Q  I want to show you a photograph marked G-64 for identification --

(G-64 was shown to the IO and to counsel for the government.)

And ask you whether you recognize the scene depicted in G-65?
A  Yes, it appears to be the north wall of the MacDonald living room.
Q  And you observe on a, what appears to be one of the speakers of the stereo set there, a plant in a vase of some sort?
A  Yes.
Q  And on top of that speaker and along side of the vase, is there a feather?
A  Yes, it looks like, it looks like a feather.
Q  Do you recall seeing that particular feather in the MacDonald house?
A  I didn't take note of it, no.  No, I don't remember seeing it.
Q  Have you ever seen it?  Have you ever personally observed it?
A  Yes.
Q  When was that?
A  Since then.
Q  Where was that?  Do you recall?
A  It was in the last few weeks.
Q  Did you have occasion to move that feather at the time that the investigating officer and counsel came to view the premises in the MacDonald house?
A  Did I?
Q  Yes.
A  No.
Q  Do you recall the feather blowing off of the hi-fi set, landing on the ground, and you picking it up and replacing it?
A  Yes, I think you are right.  Yes, I believe I did.
Q  Does that feather resemble the other feathers that you saw in the south bedroom and the master bedroom?
A  As I remember it, it does.
Q  It does?
A  Yes.
Q  Have you ever had that same feather examined as to what its source was or what it is?
A  No, sir.
Q  Did it seem to you as a unusual item to be in the living room of that particular house?
A  No, sir.

CPT THOMPSON:  I'll object to that. It calls for a conclusion.
Q  Why was the feather not submitted for any type of examination?

CPT BEALE:  Just a second.  Mr. Shaw, do you want to step outside for just a second.

(The witness departed the hearing room.)

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, what exactly are you driving at reference feathers?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, sir.  I'm astonished at the suggestion of the witness that this resembles other feathers.  I have been in the house with the investigating officer and in my judgment, for whatever that is worth, it doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to anything else in this house.  It was found in the living room, an item that is very easily moved, as it did happen to blow away, when we saw it.  Yet nobody has bothered to investigate that feather's location or in terms of what it is, in trying to determine how this unusual, what I think unusual substance to be in the living room, how it got there, when it was noticed, and what is its source.  It seems to me that the government's investigator, in making as thorough set of observations of the crime scene as they say they did, they were looking for as many clues as they did.  We are entitled to some explanation of why this particular object wasn't examined.  It does seem to me to be unusual.  Now, in view of Mr. Shaw's answers that he thinks it is the same as other feathers, that would put a different category, and I think at probably some point in the defense case, we will ask to again examine the premises or have the feathers brought here.  I do think that's a genuine question about how acute the observation was, and how complete was the followup on strange or unusual items in the house.

CPT THOMPSON:  Counsel, by his own words, has raised the irrelevancy.  The witness has testified to the fact that at the time he examined this scene he did not notice the feather. It was only in the last two weeks that he noticed it, and obviously once going through the scene he didn't have sticking in his mind the fact that this feather could have been used to commit any of the crimes that he saw within that house.  This line of questioning is entirely irrelevant.

MR. SEGAL:  The description given by Captain MacDonald, particularly the attire of the people, the young woman, would raise a question in any reasonable investigator's mind about anything -- other unusual objects found in the premises.  It seems to me that at least a prudent investigation requires verifying from the only survivor of this crime something about it, or independently comparing it.  My recollection, sir, is again I only offer it for my observation of -- what astonishes me about the answer is I recall seeing peacock feathers in the MacDonald house, but again that would be something for the investigating officer to determine.

CPT THOMPSON:  There's nothing in Captain MacDonald's statement about a young lady with headdress on the night in question.  The relevancy of feathers has not been raised by any of the testimony either through Captain MacDonald's statement or through any other testimony that's come before you in this hearing to date.

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, because of the witness' answer to your question concerning the feather, and he's stating that in his opinion there was a resemblance -- it resembles the other feathers found in the house, I think at this juncture that as far as your cross-examination of this witness goes, I think we -- this is about as far as you can go now.  On your case in chief you may choose to show the investigating officer facts to the other than as this witness believes.

MR. SEGAL:  Very well.

CPT BEALE:  Do you want to bring the witness back in?

(Warrant Officer Shaw returned to the hearing room.)

Q  Mr. Shaw, you testified yesterday that on finding the piece of wood that you described as a club outside the MacDonald house, that you observed blood or reddish-brown stains, fibers and debris on that particular wood.  Am I correct?  Correct in my recollection?
A  Essentially, yes.
Q  What were the fibers that were on that particular club determined to be?
A  My recollection of the laboratory report, these fibers were identified as having come from the throw rug in the master bedroom.
Q  May I suggest to you that if -- that this has not been heard in this case, and I call to your attention the statement of the laboratory people that Exhibit E-206, reported in a report of Change 1 of the laboratory report, submitted for communication on 5 June '70, in paragraph 7, as dealing --

CPT THOMPSON:  We'll object.  It is highly improper to read from a document that is not in evidence.  There are some laboratory reports that are in evidence, if counsel would like to refer to those.

CPT BEALE:  That is in evidence, Captain Thompson.  I don't know where you were at the time it came in.  The laboratory report speaks for itself.  Now, this particular witness, if he can describe what he saw on the stick, fine, but the lab report speaks for itself.

MR. SEGAL:  Well, I would be interested in determining whether the witness was aware of the significance of his findings, and what was the result of his findings.  I will follow the suggestions of the legal advisor.

Q  I ask you, Mr. Shaw, will you describe for us the fibers that you saw on the item that you described as a club?
A  They were fine, fine in diameter and that's about all I remember about them.
Q  How about the debris on it?  What was the debris?
A  That was the debris I had reference to.
Q  When you said blood, fibers and debris, the debris mean fibers?
A  Yes, the debris mean any -- what appeared foreign material to me.
Q  All right, what other foreign material was there besides the reddish-brown stains and the fibers you've described?
A  Just that.
Q  Nothing else?
A  That's what I saw at that time.
Q  Well, did you ever see anything else on that club aside from the reddish-brown stains and the fibers you've described?
A  No, sir.
Q  Now you had occasion yesterday to refer to some magazines that were observed and subsequently submitted for examination from the living room of the MacDonald house.  Is that correct, sir?
A  Yes.
Q  When was the Esquire magazine you had occasion to refer to collected as evidence by you?
A  It was not collected as evidence by me.
Q  Well, who was it collected by?
A  By Mr. Ivory.
Q  Do you know when it was collected?
A  I believe he took it into evidence on the 20th of February.
Q  Between the 17th and the 20th of February, where was that magazine?
A  As far as I know, it was lying on the floor.
Q  To your knowledge was it ever examined by anyone between 17 and 20 February?
A  I'm not certain at what time they started to move items, what date.  I think Ivory accepted it as evidence on the 20th of February.  That's the date that I examined it to some extent.  That's all I can tell you about it.
Q  And is it fair say to say that the blood sample that was taken from the edge of the magazine therefore had not been observed by anyone prior to the 20th of February, that you know of?
A  I don't know.
Q  Well, you, yourself, had never observed the blood on the edge of the magazine prior to 20 February, had you?
A  That's correct.
Q  Mr. Shaw, you are aware that there are approximately forty-six fingerprints, palm prints, found in the MacDonald house which have not to date been identified?
A  That's correct.
Q  Did you ever suggest or cause to have these fingerprints sent to the National Criminal Investigation Bureau, the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
A  To suggest or cause?
Q  To have them sent there for examination and check against the files of the FBI?
A  No, sir, I didn't.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing else.

COL ROCK:  I think in view of the length of the cross examination this morning, this might be an appropriate time for a recess.  Approximately how long do you figure your redirect will take?

CPT THOMPSON:  I estimate at least a half an hour.

COL ROCK:  We will take a five-minute break.

(The hearing recessed at 0952 hours, 24 July 1970.)

(The hearing reopened at 1002 hours, 24 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.  Let the record reflect that those parties who were present at the recess are currently in the hearing room.  Would you proceed, counsel?

CPT THOMPSON:  Thank you, sir.

MR. SEGAL:  I have just one question, if I might, before you start, with regard to the last --

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mr. Shaw, in view of the fact that you had 46 unidentified fingerprints, why did you tell Captain MacDonald on April 6th that there was no evidence of unidentified persons having been in his house on the morning of 17 February?
A  Because to that time, to that date there was no evidence of any stranger being in his house that that we had.
Q  You do not say or consider the 46 unidentified fingerprints to be evidence at that point of any unidentified persons?
A  At that time I didn't know there was 46 unidentified finger and palm prints in the house.
Q  And when did you learn that there were 46 unidentified prints?
A  Sometime after that, after having discussed it with the laboratory technician and receiving the report.
Q  You had received a report identifying a substantial number of the prints in the house that belonged to either Captain or Mrs. MacDonald or some of the investigators?
A  There was an interim report.
Q  An interim report.  So that at the time you had an interim report, you nevertheless still reported to Captain MacDonald there was no evidence of a stranger having been in his house on February 17th?
A  That's essentially what I said, yes.

MR. SEGAL:  Thank you very much.

Questions by CPT THOMPSON:
Q  Mr. Shaw, during the course of your investigation, you told the investigating officer you had occasion to collect three pieces of wood.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir, that's right.
Q  And with respect to the piece of wood collected out of the south bedroom, why was that selected?
A  Because to my eye it seemed to match the club that I had found outside the quarters.
Q  And where were these pieces of wood sent?  What happened?
A  They were sent to the US Army CID laboratory at Fort Gordon, Georgia, where they were examined and subsequently returned.
Q  Is the criminal investigation detachment here at Fort Bragg interested in the wallet that you didn't have an occasion to see on the morning of the 17th?
A  Yes, sir, they were.
Q  Was that wallet ever found?
A  I believe it has been, yes.
Q  And where was it found?
A  I was told it was found on the access road from Honeycutt to Womack Army Hospital, or in that general area.
Q  And has the criminal Investigation detachment has an occasion to question certain people concerning this wallet?
A  Well, yes, sir.
Q  And who does the criminal investigation detachment at Fort Bragg suspect of removing that wallet, the fact that it was removed --

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  Again, would you describe to the investigating officer where that wallet was found?

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.  It's been answered.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.
Q  Where would the medical personnel removing persons from 544 Castle Drive -- where did they go?  Do you know?

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected.  Hearsay.

CPT THOMPSON:  It is hearsay and the questions on cross examination delved into hearsay also; in order to attempt to determine what, in fact, happened to this wallet, I am trying to redirect through hearsay again to satisfy the investigating officer that all steps were taken in order to determine the location and whereabouts of that particular wallet that may have been found.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Shaw, to your knowledge, who is the best individual to be able to clarify this matter that is currently located here at Fort Bragg?

WITNESS:   Mr. Grebner, sir.

CPT THOMPSON:  We will reserve that question for Mr. Grebner.

Q  You indicated that -- is it an SOP, standard procedure, for the criminal investigation detachment to inventory a house which is a crime scene?
A  No, sir, it is not.
Q  You indicated on cross-examination that you did have an occasion to determine valuables located within the -- that house.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  And when was that?
A  Well, on two different occasions, the first being upon the initial investigation at the scene, it is standard procedure to -- particularly in a crime of this type -- to attempt to establish that outsiders have come into the house.  One of the ways of doing that, one of the techniques involved, is to determine if there are any valuables present at the home, what condition they are in, if any accessories or integral parts of these valuables are missing.  So during the initial phase of the investigation, I had occasion to ascertain that there were valuables in the house.  On another occasion, on the 19th of June, I went to the house with Captain Somers and had occasion to determine whether or not valuables listed by Captain MacDonald were in the house.  To the best of my knowledge, those things that he wanted such as, one item I recall was a tall pink statue of a cat, which was a coin bank of some type, which was full of coins, he wanted that, and it was released to Captain Somers for release to Captain MacDonald.  There had been others in the house earlier which were earlier released to Captain MacDonald.  He wanted -- described a  ring that he wanted released in the house, and I don't recall the exact description of that ring, but I do know I discussed it at the time with other investigators and was told -- well, that ring has already been released to Captain MacDonald.
     Nonetheless, we made a search of the house for the ring and did not find it.
Q  Do you know how many rings were released to Captain MacDonald and turned back over to him?
A  I know I never specifically released any rings to Captain MacDonald and I don't know for sure.
Q  Between the 17th of February and today, with respect to the valuables that you ascertained were in the home, what is their present location?
A  Those that have not been released to Captain MacDonald are still in the house.
Q  What steps have been taken between 17 February and today to insure the location of those valuables?

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.  It's irrelevant.

CPT BEALE:  Objection overruled.

A  Between the 17th of February and the 21st of February there was a constant guard on the house, 24-hour military guard, in addition to those hours that we were in the house working the crime scene.  On the 21st I had hasps and staples put on the entrances to the quarters and put my locks on the entrance ways to the quarters and on the 23rd of February I had the windows welded shut, the windows of the quarters.
Q  Now you stated --
A  In addition, I placed brown paper seals, what we might call them, over the inside surfaces of the windows and curtains so that I could readily detect if there was any disturbance of them.
Q  And why were these brown seals placed over the windows?
A  For two reasons: one, to detect any attempted entrance; two, to dissuade any curiosity seekers or cameramen.
Q  You indicated earlier you placed locks.  How many locks were placed?

MR. SEGAL:  This whole line of questioning is objected to.  There's no question being raised by anybody as to what happened any time after say the 20th of February as to the contents of the house.  At that time the barn door was shut and the horse was gone.  The only question here is what happened on the morning of the 17th; what happened up to the 20th, as a matter of fact, with regard to the magazine.  All the securities measures at a later time does not address itself to any question relative before the inquiry and only delays the proceeding of these matters.

CPT THOMPSON:  They were raised on cross-examination, Colonel Rock, the preservation of the crime scene.  They have talked on cross-examination about a wallet and about certain rings that were obviously taken after the crime scene was intact.  It is only an attempt by the government now on redirect to convince the investigating officer that all reasonable measures above and beyond what is reasonably necessary really were taken to secure that house.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is overruled.

A  Would you repeat the question, sir?
Q  With respect to the locks you stated that you placed at 544 Castle Drive, please indicate for the investigating officer how many and where?
A  Yes, sir.  I have four locks which I obtained from the Post Engineer Supply.  They were key padlocks and I placed one of these on each door.  In addition, I placed one lock on the access way underneath the house because I had removed portions of the floor which had been replaced with other wood, but I wanted -- I knew that the structure was weak at this point, so I wanted to lock this access door.  In addition I have -- caused to have fixed railway seals, numbered railway seals on each one of these locks on the house so that one must break the seal before they can enter the quarters.
Q  How many people have access to those locks?  Or to 544 Castle?
A  Two people, myself and Mr. Ivory.
Q  Do your records indicate that anyone other than those two people breaking any seals?
A  Yes, sir, they do.  Whoever physical breaks the seal is recorded as having broken the seal and the number and the time and date, of course.  And whoever replaces the seal, the same operation.  Now it has happened that Ivory or myself have gone to the house since that date and with other persons, and those other persons physically broke the seals.
Q  But you would have been, on those particular occasions when someone else registered, would have been with them --

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.  That's grossly leading.

CPT BEALE:  Counselor, Colonel Rock has stated he is satisfied to the fact that the security that you have established, so why don't you move to another area.

CPT THOMPSON:  Very well.

Q  Between the 17th of February and today, has Captain MacDonald had an occasion to give you a list or an inventory of the valuables in that house?
A  Not as such, no, sir.
Q  And could you explain your answer, not as such?  Has he in any way?
A  Captain MacDonald has furnished us with a list of property from his home which he would like to have released to him.  It was a list in that direction, not a list of valuables as such.
Q  Now you have indicated at approximately 0755 hours on the morning the first of the three bodies was removed.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And who was the first?
A  Mrs. MacDonald.
Q  Would you please -- now at the time prior to her removal you stated that you and Mr. Ivory had occasion to remove certain objects from her.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you please tell the investigating officer how long it took between the time that pajama top was initially lifted until the time it was finally placed in the bag?
A  A few seconds: certainly not a full half minute.
Q  And the same with respect to the bath mat, how long between the time it was initially touched until the time it was sealed in the plastic?
A  The same, the same length of time, not a full half a minute.
Q  During that, those few seconds, not more than thirty seconds, did you observe any contamination?
A  Contamination, sir?
Q  Did you observe any trailing threads falling off that garment?

MR. SEGAL:  Well, that is objected to as grossly leading.

CPT BEALE:  Objection is overruled

A  No, sir, I didn't.
Q  And how far away were you from the pajama top and bath mat at the time they were being lifted and placed into the plastic bag?
A  A matter of -- at the time they were lifted and placed in the bag?
Q  Yes.
A  Well, I was within arm's reach of Mr. Ivory while he was doing this.
Q  Would you please describe to the investigating officer how Mrs. MacDonald was placed onto the object she was ultimately taken out of the house?
A  Well, sir, she was lifted by two medics from the floor who wheeled the stretcher as close to her as they could get it.  One moved to her ankles and feet area, and the other moved to her shoulder and head area.  They lifted her, as far as I could tell, straight up into the air, just high enough to clear the height of the stretcher, and the one at her shoulders, I believe, might have taken a step and a half or two steps to get to the position where he could place her on the stretcher, and she was laid on the stretcher.
Q  Was she laid on the stretcher itself?
A  No, sir, there was some sort of -- what looked to be a mattress covered with a sheet.  I'm not certain of that, but I'm not familiar with the way these are built, but that's what it looked like.
Q  What was the placement of her legs, as you recall?
A  Well, her legs were reasonably straight.  They were placed together somewhat.
Q  Where were they placed?
A  On the stretcher.
Q  And her arms?
A  On the stretcher.
Q  Did she remain in that position during the time she was taken from the house?
A  Yes, sir, she did.
Q  Would you please describe for the investigating officer the approximate width of that stretcher?
A  Well, as I said before, it might be two and a half feet wide, or somewhat less than that.  I am not absolutely certain.
Q  Can you describe for the investigating officer what occurred when she was -- when the stretcher was wheeled from the master bedroom into the hallway?  What route did the stretcher take?
A  Well, it was backed almost straight up into the doorway, about the center of the doorway.
Q  You have indicated earlier on direct examination that at the entryway of the master bedroom there was a wet spot of what you described as AB blood.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you please describe with reference to that particular spot how the stretcher traveled over it, across it?
A  Well the stretcher wheels, of course, were the only thing touching the floor, and they would have been almost at the door jambs, certainly would have been quite a distance between them and the spots that I saw.
Q  Did you have occasion to observe that particular location in the entryway prior to the time Mrs. MacDonald was taken from the bedroom?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you have occasion to observe that location after she was taken?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would you please describe for the investigating officer how that location changed?
A  None at all that I could see.
Q  At the time Mrs. MacDonald was taken from the house, where were the bodies of the two younger children?
A  In their respective beds.
Q  And how were they subsequently removed?
A  Well, as I've described earlier, they were each lifted by two corpsmen from their beds and carried to the hallway and placed on the stretcher.
Q  Now how was the younger child, Kristen, placed upon the stretcher?  With respect to her arms and legs.
A  She was lying on her back with her arms extended downward parallel with her body.  Her arms and legs were out straight and they were on the stretcher.
Q  And was any portion of her body not on the stretcher?
A  No, sir, not that I know of.
Q  With respect to Kimberly MacDonald, was any portion of her body not on the stretcher?
A  No, sir.
Q  Were either one or both of those children ever near the entry way to the master bedroom?
A  Before or after they were killed, sir?
Q  After.
A  No, sir.
Q  How near to the master bedroom were they?

MR. SEGAL:  Sir, I assume this is all clearly -- about the handling of the bodies is not meant to have Mr. Shaw surmise about the matters other than what he observed in the handling of the bodies.  The question has nothing --

CPT THOMPSON:  Counsel went at great length -- I think that there is this possibility of contamination with reference to the preservation of the crime scene.  The government is trying to clarify this on redirect examination.

MR. SEGAL:  There's no objection.  I just want to make sure the question is clear.  We are only asking Mr. Shaw about what he saw with regard to the handling of the bodies, and not asking him for opinions or -- or opinions in that regard.

CPT BEALE:  Certainly, that's correct.

Q  Would you please tell the investigating officer again how, or what position, with reference to the master bedroom, Kimberly and Kristen MacDonald were at the time they were removed?
A  And placed on the stretcher?
Q  Exactly.
A  Well, of course, they were brought out through the doorways of their respective bedrooms and placed immediately on the stretcher, and the stretcher was between the entrance way to the bedroom and the living room, rather than on the other side of the doorways.  As I say, the handles, the eastern most handles of the stretcher were extending just beyond the west door jamb to the south bedroom.
Q  From the west door jamb of the north bedroom to the end of the hallway, what was the condition of that hallway with respect to blood stains?  Prior to the time that any person was removed from that house.
A  Would you repeat the area again, sir?
Q  The area from the west door jamb of the north bedroom to the westerly most end of the hallway to the living room end of the hallway, what was the condition of that hallway with respect to red brown stains prior to the time that any of the bodies were removed?
A  The only stain that I saw in that area on the floor was one spot very close to the entrance to the living room, right at the entrance to the living room.  There were several spots on the north wall that I saw both before and after the removal of the bodies, but on the floor, just one spot.
Q  And after the three bodies were removed, what was the condition of that same area?
A  The only thing that I know that was disturbed at all was some clothing that was at the end of the hall that was moved, to the best of my recollection, by Mr. Grebner so that it would not be stepped on by the ambulance crews as they removed the body.
Q  And what time was this?
A  About eight o'clock, sir.
Q  What time were the photographs taken of that area?
A  Several hours before.
Q  Did you have an occasion to observe the door leading from the residence in the utility room any time during the course of your investigation?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And did you have an occasion to observe the lock on that door?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  Did you have an occasion to observe the locks on all other doors?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you testified earlier that you did have an occasion to observe the exterior portion of the house.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  What evidence, if any, did you find of a burglary?
A  None, sir.
Q  Now with respect to the dining room area of the residence at 544 Castle Drive, you stated that you had occasion on that particular morning to observe some cards.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You indicated that there were Valentine cards.  Is that correct?
A  That's what I remember, Valentine.
Q  Do you remember when Valentine's Day was?
A  No, sir, I don't.
Q  And do you recall any Valentines from Mrs. MacDonald to anyone?
A  No, sir.
Q  With respect to the Valentine made reference to the words "To My Darling Wife" that you stated that you believe was from Captain MacDonald.  Is that correct?
A  Not entirely, no, sir.  I don't -- I don't really remember that at all.
Q  Do you remember a Valentine with those words?
A  No, sir.
Q  You don't recall that?
A  No, sir.
Q  What was the position in reference to the object that the Valentines were on?  What was their position with reference to that piece of furniture?
A  The Valentines were out of their envelopes and open and were sitting up so that one could see -- it was a display of Valentine cards, greeting cards.
Q  Now with respect to the weapons that you stated were found underneath the bush at the rear of the residence.
A  Yes, sir.
Q  When were these particular objects dusted?  Do you recall?
A  It would have been that date, 17th of February.  It was done at those quarters by Mr. Medlin.
Q  On that day?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you indicated that the dusting revealed smudges?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Unidentifiable?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And what does that mean to you as an investigator?
A  It --

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  Could those smudges have belonged to anyone?

MR. SEGAL:  That is objected to.

CPT BEALE:  Sustained.

Q  During the time that yourself and Mr. Ivory, Mr. Connolly were present in the quarters with Dr. Neal, with respect to the master bedroom and the south bedroom, did any of these individuals disturb the scene as you originally saw it?

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to, calls for a conclusion.

CPT THOMPSON:  He can testify to what --

CPT BEALE:  Rephrase your question to the extent that did he observe any changes in the scene before and after.

Q  Did you observe any changes in those particular rooms, by changes I mean changes from how you saw the scene prior to the time that Doctor Neal was in those rooms?
A  No, sir, not at all.
Q  With respect to the living room portion of the residence and the location of approximately the Esquire magazine that you testified to on the table, have you had occasion since 17 February to disturb the location of that particular table?
A  Oh, yes, sir.
Q  How many times?
A  Many, many times.
Q  Would you estimate for the investigating officer how many times?
A  Between 20 to 30 times, probably 30 times.
Q  And describe for the investigating officer how that table was disturbed by you, or how it was moved by you?
A  Well, on several occasions on these occasions I've mentioned, I've tried to find a way that I could tip that table over and have it come to rest as it did, as I found it that morning on the 17th of February.  I've pushed it over; I've knocked it over; I've dropped it; I've done several things to it all in the same general area.

MR. SEGAL:  I object.  There's no question before the witness.  He was asked whether he had moved the table.  Now we are having dissertation on a scientific experiment of table tipping.  I object to the question.  I object to the answer.  Move to strike it.

CPT THOMPSON:  I can ask another question with respect to this particular line of questioning which has come in through the testimony of Ivory.

MR. SEGAL:  It would be beyond the scope of cross examination however.

CPT BEALE:  Counselor, why don't we move to another area?  Colonel Rock is not particularly interested in this.

CPT THOMPSON:  All right.

Q  With respect to the palm prints alluded to by counsel --
A  Yes, sir.
Q  You have been quoted before on these particular palm prints.  Is that correct or not correct?
A  That is correct.
Q  And would you please explain to the investigating officer why certain things were done or not done with reference to these particular palm prints?
A  Yes, sir, I --

CPT BEALE:  Captain Thompson, we have no idea what you are talking about.

CPT THOMPSON:  I'll rephrase my question.

CPT BEALE:  Please do.

Q  You indicated that you did not send any prints to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for analysis.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  Why didn't you?
A  Because I know that the FBI does not offer fingerprint record check service except in very limited areas.  One, repeated kidnapping offenders.  The other that I know about is a file kept on certain figures of crime that are considered to be syndicate figures.  Otherwise the FBI will not provide us the service of checking their millions of cards for single fingerprints.  They just don't do it.

MR. SEGAL:  I would object to the answer to the extent that he knows that the FBI -- if he states that he believes that they would not do it, I don't mind and will except the answer, but he can't testify as to what the FBI won't do because he's really not the appropriate person to say that.

CPT BEALE:  It is sustained.  That is only the opinion of this particular witness.  I don't believe he works for the FBI, do you Mr. Shaw?

WITNESS:   I work with them, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Do you work for them?

WITNESS:   No, sir.

CPT BEALE:  Very well, then limit your answers to what you believe the FBI would do under the circumstances.

WITNESS:   Sir, I have, in fact, asked the FBI if they do this and they said they do not.

MR. SEGAL:  Again, I move to strike that part of the answer -- what the FBI, whoever that is, may have said to Mr. Shaw.  I suspect that has been an individual agent, but it is not the FBI.

CPT BEALE:  Very well.  Again, this whole line of questioning is -- the objection is still sustained unless you can make it clear and tie in what this particular witness knows of his own personal knowledge and able to testify to.

Q  Have you had occasion in the past to seek such aid from the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
A  Yes.

MR. SEGAL:  Objection.  Acts of the past are not relevant to the request in a triple murder case.

CPT BEALE:  Captain Thompson, we are concerned with what this witness did in relation to this case.
Q  Have you had occasion with respect to this investigation to seek assistance of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, has the Criminal Investigation Detachment had occasion to seek assistance --

MR. SEGAL:  That's objected to unless it is only referring to seeking assistance in the fingerprint question.

CPT BEALE:  We are pertaining to fingerprints, Captain Thompson, right now.  That's what we are talking about right now.

CPT THOMPSON:  Very well, I have no further questions.

CPT BEALE:  Very well.  Re-cross?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, very briefly.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Mr. Shaw, you are familiar with the provisions of Army Regulation 195-10?
A  Most of them, I think so, yes, sir.
Q  What is the title of that generally?
A  Criminal Investigation Activities, generally.
Q  Is that the principal regulation specifying the Military Police investigative activities, the principal authority or regulation in that area?
A  Probably, yes, sir.
Q  Have you ever had occasion to read paragraph 4-19, entitled FBI Fingerprint Record Checks?
A  Yes, sir, I have.
Q  Paragraph 4-19 provides a method whereby you may request the checking of fingerprints or multiple prints of subjects of criminal investigations --

CPT THOMPSON:  I'll object to that question.  I think again, the best evidence of this would be the regulation itself.  He's trying to draw from this witness' memory of what someone else has told him or what he's read.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled.

Q  Are you familiar with that provision?
A  Familiar in what way, sir?
Q  Do you know that it exists, that there is a provision of a regulation which describes the procedure for requesting the FBI to check fingerprints?
A  Sir, I wouldn't trust my memory about what's in that paragraph.

CPT BEALE:  Can counsel show this document to the witness in order that we may refresh his memory?

MR. SEGAL:  I will in a moment, sir, if you will bear with me.

Q  Mr. Shaw, how can you state with certainty to the investigating officer that there is no way that you know of having checked these 46 fingerprints if you have not checked the basic regulation of the Army in this regard as to the investigation, in relation to the FBI?
A  Sir, I am sure this regulation has been revised several times over the years that I have been a criminal investigator, and I found that it is better to go to the horse's mouth when you are dealing with other agencies, and this is what I would have attempted to do.
Q  You mean you asked some FBI agent, instead of looking at an Army Regulation which provides the procedure for doing this.  Is that right?
A  Sir, it is the FBI that's going to do it.
Q  When you say the FBI, you did not ask anyone in the Washington office in terms of a supervisor in Washington in connection with the fingerprint bureau whether they would do this.
A  They had been asked by whom?
Q  By you.
A  No, sir.
Q  Who asked them?
A  To the best of my knowledge, the Commanding Officer of the US Army CID -- correction, the Laboratory.
Q  Who is that?
A  This is a Captain Joel Leson.
Q  And when did you ever receive the information that he had been refused by the FBI reference checking these fingerprints?

CPT THOMPSON:  I'll object to the question.  On redirect --

CPT BEALE:  Your objection is overruled, Captain Thompson.

Q  When did you ever become aware of that communication?
A  It would have been within the last three or four weeks.
Q  Were you aware that Sergeant Medlin of the laboratory at Fort Gordon, when he testified here, said nothing had been done, to his knowledge, to ask the FBI to review these fingerprints?
A  I read that in the newspaper, yes, sir.
Q  Who did you ask the FBI as to whether you could submit the 46 prints in this particular case for examination by the FBI Fingerprint Bureau?
A  I don't recall that I ever asked anyone specifically by word of mouth to him, if they did this in this case.
Q  Did you ever consult any FBI agent -- did you ever consult the provisions of Army Regulation 195-10, paragraph 4-19 referring to FBI fingerprint record checks since the date of the MacDonald investigation began?
A  No, sir.
Q  It is not standard operating procedure for the CID to refer to basic regulations and manuals in determining how to proceed properly in an investigation?
A  Yes, sir, it is.
Q  In this case, no reference was made, however, by you to the provisions of the regulation regarding the FBI check of fingerprints?
A  Not by me.
Q  And to your knowledge, neither did Mr. Ivory or Mr. Grebner refer those provisions?
A  I have no way of knowing this.
Q  To your knowledge, did they?
A  I don't know.
Q  Now you have told us many times in the course of the last two days --

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Segal, hold it.  He's answered the question to the best of his ability.

Q  Let me ask you about this matter, about this not standard operating procedure to make an inventory of the premises.  Are you particularly familiar with paragraph 3-17 of this same regulation that I've talked about this morning?
A  Not from memory, no, sir.
Q  All right, let me suggest to you the title of it.  Perhaps you'll have some recollection that is provided for in the regulation.  Are you familiar that there is a section entitled 3-17 of AR 195-10, entitled Retention of Property?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Are you familiar with the following language of that regulation which states, strict property accountability and/or evidence chain of custody records will be maintained of all property accumulated during the conduct of any investigation?  Does that sound familiar to you?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  It does.  Does strict property accountability pursuant to the provisions of this regulation mean to you that it is not SOP to make an inventory of the entire building that has been held as investigative material?
A  Yes, sir, that's exactly what it means.
Q  It means you don't have to make an inventory of that building?
A  By interpretation of the regulation, I do not have to make an inventory of the building or non-evidentiary items.
Q  Are you telling us that there is a substantial amount of non-evidentiary matters in that building?
A  Yes, sir, I think so.

CPT THOMPSON:  Objection your honor. This is completely irrelevant, immaterial even to this line of questioning.

CPT BEALE:  Your objection is sustained.

Q  Mr. Shaw, are you telling the investigator of this case that it is the standard operating procedure of the CID Detachment at Fort Bragg never to ask a victim of a person whose home has been broken into as to whether he has suffered any loss of property therein?
A  No, sir, that's not what I am saying.
Q  Was, in this case, Captain MacDonald ever asked between February 17th and May 1, 1970, what losses he sustained in that house in the break-in of February 17th?
A  I don't know, in fact, if anyone has asked him.  I put the statement to Captain MacDonald on one occasion and he seemed to agree with me.
Q  You mean that's the occasion when you told him that there was nothing missing from his house.  Isn't that right?
A  That's the time I am referring to.
Q  You are not suggesting that you ever asked him to find out whether he was missing articles?
A  No, I am not.
Q  Is it the standard operating procedure for the CID Detachment of this base not to determine the loss of property from the premises by asking the owner of the premises?
A  No, it is not.
Q  Is it, in fact, your standard procedure to make inquiries to determine if property had been stolen when there is a claim that the premises has been broken into?
A  Where there is such a claim, yes, sir.
Q  Did Captain MacDonald claim his premises were broken into?
A  He did claim they were entered.
Q  Well, he didn't claim they were entered by someone who --
A  Captain MacDonald claimed illegal entry, yes.
Q  But nevertheless your detachment did not follow its own procedure of thereafter determining from him whether there was any loss of property?

CPT THOMPSON:  I'll object to that, Colonel Rock.  He's testified to what procedures they did, in fact, follow.  Clearly this line of questioning is again an attempt to impugn the investigative procedures of the CID Detachment reference this case and it's gotten completely away from the issue and/or issues to be determined by the investigating officer.

CPT BEALE:  Your objection is sustained, for the reason that Colonel Rock is satisfied the question has been answered sufficiently.

Q  Now, I understand that after our overnight recess you are now of the opinion that you did not see the words "To My Darling Wife" on either the card or the box of candy in the MacDonald dining room.  Is that correct?
A  Sir, to the best of my recollection, I don't remember seeing that specifically.  As I testified yesterday, it doesn't ring a bell with me.
Q  Well, what is your recollection of the contents of the cards signed by Captain MacDonald and addressed to his wife?
A  I don't know in fact that any of those cards were signed by Captain MacDonald.  I remember that there were some Valentine Day greeting cards there, and I remember taking notes at the time one or more of these cards were probably initiated by Captain MacDonald.
Q  Is that because the name "Jeff" appeared on it?
A  Yes, I think so.
Q  Well, addressing yourself to those cards, and I think it's a reasonable assumption you made in that regard, would you indicate to the investigating officer what you do remember of the sentiment expressed there in the cards that were signed Jeff and not intended for the children?

CPT THOMPSON:  I'll object to the question.  He's indicated both on redirect and re-cross that he has no recollection specifically with respect to that card.

MR. SEGAL:  Well, I just suggest that the government on redirect made an issue of not recalling "To My Darling Wife", suggesting therefore this witness has a memory of the contents or the principal sentiments of the card.  We are entitled therefore to ask what he does recall in that regard.

CPT BEALE:  Your objection is overruled.  Answer the question if you can, Mr. Shaw.

A  The only recollection I have about this is that there were Valentine cards there, and I remember at the time that one of these cards, one or more or these cards was apparently signed by Captain MacDonald and that's all I really remember about it.  Any more would be something I don't remember.

MR. SEGAL:  That's all.

CPT THOMPSON:  If I may, Colonel Rock, have an opportunity to observe this particular regulation that was used in --

(Mr. Segal handed Captain Thompson a document.)

COL ROCK:  Mr. Shaw, reference the stick, piece of wood you described as a club, Government Exhibit 79, when you picked up this Government Exhibit 79, did you observe the condition of the ground under this particular exhibit?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I did.

COL ROCK:  How long do you think that stick may have been in that area?

WITNESS:   I would think not very long, sir, because it was raining and the grass was wet, as was the club, and to the best of my recollection, the grass that was underneath the club didn't spring back up, but it came back after the club was removed, and I remember as I was moving the club to the box, I gave a quick visual examination, looked on all four sides, and to the best of my recollection all four sides were wet.  I don't think the club was there very long.  That's all I can --

COL ROCK:  Was the grass surrounding the club green?

WITNESS:  I think it was green and brown, sir.  There was dead grass and green grass.

COL ROCK:  Was there a distinct difference in the color of the grass under this exhibit as compared to the grass around the exhibit?


COL ROCK:  Did you have occasion to go into the kitchen early on the morning of the 17th?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, reasonably early.

COL ROCK:  Approximately what time, would you say?

WITNESS:  I entered the kitchen before eight o'clock, sir.  This is as close as I can say.  I don't know at what point I entered the kitchen.

COL ROCK:  Did you have occasion at that time to go to the kitchen door?

WITNESS:  To it, yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Did you have occasion to check whether that door was or was not locked?

WITNESS:  I was going to check it and I asked Mr. Ivory about it.  He said that he'd already checked it and it was locked.

COL ROCK:  Did Mr. Ivory indicate if he had locked the door himself, or did you get the impression that he meant that it was locked when he saw it?

WITNESS:  Sir, my assumption of his meaning was that it was locked when he arrived at the scene.

COL ROCK:  To your knowledge, is there a light on the exterior wall of the kitchen?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, there is.

COL ROCK:  Was this light illuminated when you first went to the rear of the house?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, it was.

COL ROCK:  I have no further questions.

MR. SEGAL:  If I may, unless you are ready to go, Captain Thompson.  I have some questions with regard to what you have.

Questions by MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did you ever check the lock on the door between the utility room and the outside of the MacDonald house?
A  Yes, sir, I did.
Q  What was the condition of the lock?
A  Well, would you be specific as to the time period of my checking?
Q  All right, would you indicate when you did check the lock?
A  I checked the lock after I had been told it had been processed for fingerprints.
Q  And what date was that?
A  The 17th.
Q  And was that late in the afternoon?
A  Probably, yes, sir, to actually check the lock to see the function of the door.
Q  When you say processed for fingerprints, had they been removed from the wall, or had they been processed in place?
A  Processed in place.
Q  Were you aware of a statement by a witness by the name of Janice Pendlyshok that Mrs. MacDonald complained about the fact that that lock was not secure on the utility room door?
A  No, I wasn't aware of this statement.
Q  What did you observe about that utility room door lock?
A  That it functioned properly.
Q  That it functioned properly.  What do you mean?
A  That it locked -- it could be locked.
Q  Did you try a key in it?
A  No, sir.
Q  You mean that it could be locked by turning the latch on the inside?
A  Yes, sir.

COL ROCK:  Counselor, I remind you my questions were addressed to the kitchen door.

MR. SEGAL:  Very well, sir.

Q  Now you indicated to the investigating officer that you picked up the stick described as a club, and you believe it was wet on all four sides?
A  Yes, sir, I think so.
Q  Do you know from your own personal knowledge or from the checking of any records when the rain commenced on 2-17 or 2-16, 1970?
A  This was done, counselor, and it was done through our contact at Pope Air Force Base, through some weather station out there, but this was done as a matter of interest, because quite often we found in other investigation that the weather varies between here and there, and between here and Fayetteville, and I don't -- I don't know if anyone in authority with expertise checked Fort Bragg specifically to fully answer the question.
Q  You would have no way of knowing, therefore, whether that stick that you observed about 0700 hours had been in place in excess of six hours or under six hours?
A  It would only be an opinion on my part.
Q  Do you have any facts to indicate whether that stick had been lying in place in excess of twelve hours?

CPT THOMPSON:  I'll object to that, Colonel Rock.  He's answered the questioning and other questions with respect to this, and described the area around it, and any inferences to be drawn as to how long the particular club-stick was there can be drawn from the evidence already adduced from this witness.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled.

Q  Mr. Shaw, do you have any facts in regard to whether the club was outside in excess of 12 hours?
A  I think so, yes, sir.
Q  What facts do you have in that regard?
A  Well, when I first observed the club it was between six-thirty and seven o'clock.  Twelve hours prior to that would be seven o'clock, 1900 hours the previous day, and Mrs. MacDonald was known to be alive at that time, and because the blood identified as probably being hers was found on the club, I'd say it was there less than 12 hours.
Q  Do you have any way of knowing whether that club had been on the outside of the MacDonald house at 1700 hours on February 16th, been taken into the house and returned there sometime on the 17th of February?

CPT THOMPSON:  I'll object to that.  It's not within this witness' knowledge where, in fact, that club was, and he hasn't indicated that he has any knowledge, by his last answer.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is sustained.

Q  Did you interrogate any neighbors of the MacDonald's to determine whether they had seen this piece of wood outside the MacDonald house on February 16th, 1970?
A  I did not.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further.

Questions by CPT THOMPSON:
Q  Mr. Shaw, did you and another member of the investigating team cause to have the locking devices in the house examined by anyone?
A  Yes, sir, we did.
Q  And which locks were examined?
A  The locks from the south entrance door, the northeast entrance and the northwest entrance door.
Q  Are there any other doors in that residence?
A  Not exterior doors, no, sir.
Q  And have the results of those examinations been submitted by the laboratory to you?
A  Yes, sir, they have.

CPT THOMPSON:  We have no further questions.  We would like to have the investigating officer read paragraphs 3-17 and 4-19 of Army Regulation 195-10.

COL ROCK:  I will read that at an appropriate time, however, not at this moment.

CPT THOMPSON:  Very well.  We have nothing further of this witness.

COL ROCK:  Do you request that the witness be excused?

CPT THOMPSON:  I do request the witness be excused, and at this time would request that the real evidence introduced through him be allowed to remain in his possession.

MR. SEGAL:  I would object unless the government is closing its case at this time

CPT THOMPSON:  This evidence will be available.

COL ROCK:  Under the same caveats as we have introduced previously.  I may have been confused about the request of the counsel for the accused.  My desire is that this evidence will remain, at least until such time as Mr. Grebner has completed his testimony, as I may have occasion to refer to these particular --

CPT THOMPSON:  Very well, sir.

COL ROCK:  Mr. Shaw, you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than counsel for the government or counsel for the accused.  Do you understand?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I understand.

COL ROCK:  You are excused, subject to recall.

CPT SOMERS:  Sir, the government is ready with its next witness.  We would like to take about a five-minute recess.

(The hearing recessed at 1105 hours, 24 July 1970.)
Webmaster note: 
The original stenographer's misspelling of Connelly was corrected to Connolly in this transcript.