Article 32 Hearing
Volume 4

July 10, 1970

Captain William Neal (MD)

(The hearing reopened at 0940 hours, 10 July 1970.)

COL ROCK:  The hearing will come to order.   Let the record reflect that the parties who were present at the beginning of the break are currently in the hearing room, with the addition of Captain Douthat.  Would counsel for the government proceed?

CPT SOMERS:  Yes, sir, the government calls Captain Neal.

(Captain William P. Neal was called as a witness by the government, was sworn, and testified as follows.)

Questions by Captain Somers:
Q  What is your name, please?
A  William P. Neal, sir.
Q  Your grade, sir?
A  Captain.
Q  Your organization?
A  Womack Army Hospital.
Q  Your station?
A  Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Q  Your armed force?
A  Army.
Q  What degree do you have, sir?
A  Doctorate of Osteopathy.
Q  Have you done an internship, sir?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Where did you do that?
A  Doctors Hospital in Columbus, Ohio.
Q  Where are you licensed to practice medicine?
A  Ohio, Kentucky and Florida.
Q  What branch of the Army are you in?
A  Medical Corps, sir.

CPT SOMERS:  I tender to the investigating officer this witness as an expert in the field of medicine.

COL ROCK:  What is osteopathy or whatever the word is?

CPT SOMERS:  Would you like to explain that a little bit?

WITNESS:  It is a school of medicine that was begun some one hundred years ago and is directly related to the American Osteopathic Association.  We are licensed and accepted as sufficient in most states in the United States.

COL ROCK:  And specifically, what does that science deal with, what part of the body, in what fashion?

WITNESS:  In all aspects of medicine, sir -- dealing in manipulation, which is the muscular skeletal system.

CPT SOMERS:  If you'd like, sir I can expand on this some more.

COL ROCK:  I'd appreciate it if you would.

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Does the Army recognize you as the equivalent of an MD?  When you are licensed to practice medicine is it the same as an MD?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you say you are licensed to practice medicine in three states?
A  That's correct.
Q  In each state is that license the same as that of an MD?
A  There are different boards in one of the states -- the state of Florida.
Q  However the license itself --
A  The license itself entitles me to practice medicine.
Q  And do osteopaths have such specialties as pathology and radiology as MD's do?
A  Yes, we do.
Q  Isn't it true, doctor, that osteopathy, or osteopaths and MD's practice medicine in much the same way, with one distinction of the additional discipline of manipulation?
A  That is correct.

COL ROCK:  I am satisfied.

MR. EISMAN:  Just a matter of procedure, at this time since there will be other expert witnesses, do I understand the procedure to be that the government will be permitted to question the witness, or their potential as far as qualifications, and that if I saw fit to question the witness as far as his qualifications I would be given opportunity?

COL ROCK:  Absolutely.

MR. EISMAN:  At this time I have no questions so far as qualifications.  I just want to --

COL ROCK:  Yes, very definitely.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no questions as far as qualifications.

COL ROCK:  Please proceed.

CPT SOMERS:  You do then accept him as an expert witness?

COL ROCK:  Yes, please proceed.

Q  Doctor Neal, what was your duty on the night of 16 and 17 February this year?
A  I was professional officer of the day at the emergency room at Womack Army Hospital.
Q  And did you have an occasion to be called to go to 544 Castle Drive?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  For what purpose were you to go there?
A  To pronounce bodies dead.
Q  And did you go to that address?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  About what time was that?
A  About 4:30 in the morning.
Q  Now, doctor, I ask you if you will come up to this easel and look, sir, at Government Exhibit Number 1, which is a floor plan.

(Witness complied.)

Q  Now, sir, if you will stand right here on the left side -- do you recognize this?
A  Yes, this is basically the floor plan of the house we entered.
Q  Very good.  You did enter this house.
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Were you met by someone?
A  Yes, sir, I was at the front door.
Q  And you were conducted around the house?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did you in fact pronounce some bodies dead in this house?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  In what order, if you will tell us, did you pronounce them dead and also if you will point out your route on this floor plan.
A  Yes, sir.  We pronounced the body of the little girl in this bedroom first.
Q  You say this bedroom.  Are you referring to the rear bedroom?
A  The rear bedroom, yes, and then we moved to the master bedroom where we pronounced the body of a female adult, and to this bedroom where we pronounced the body of another child, female.
Q  All right, now, if you will, will you describe for us, please what you did in discerning that the body in the rear bedroom was dead and tell us, if you can, please, sir, what your clinical estimate of cause of death was?
A  Yes, we checked the pupilla dilation, we checked the peripheral pulses and the heart tones and lung sounds.  We heard nothing.  We palpated no pulses and the pupils were dilated.  The body had multiple stab wounds on the chest and on the back.  We presumed those to be the cause of death.
Q  I see.  Now if you will explain the same thing about the body that you encountered in the master bedroom.
A  Yes, we again checked the peripheral pulses, pupilla dilatation and the heart tones and lung sounds, and again we had negative findings.  The cause of death appeared to be multiple stab wounds to the chest, face and head.
Q  I see, and again if you will explain what you did in the front bedroom with the body.
A  Yes, we checked the pupilla dilatation.  We checked for peripheral pulses and for heart and lung sounds and the cause of death appeared to a heavy blow to the head although there were stab wounds in the neck and chest, on this child in this bedroom.
Q  The front bedroom?
A  Yes.
Q  You may return to your seat.

(Witness did as requested.)

Q  Were the bodies identified to you?
A  Yes they were.
Q  Do you know what the names were?
A  The girl in the rear bedroom was named Kristen.  The girl in the front bedroom was named Kimberly, and Mrs. MacDonald was in the rear bedroom.

CPT SOMERS:  Your witness.

MR. EISMAN:  Thank you.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  Doctor Neal, do you know the time which you arrived at the MacDonald household?  If you can recall.
A  Approximately -- the definite time, no.
Q  Now you testified you made several, took several medical procedures in which to determine whether or not the people you examined were deceased.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  You testified first of all that you looked into the pupils or what exactly did you do regarding the pupils of the eyes?
A  We simply took note of the amount of dilatation of the pupil.  This is just an observation on the part of a physician, opening the eyelids and view the pupil itself.
Q  Now, in order to open the eyelids, as you recall on the first child, Kristen MacDonald, did you have occasion to touch the -- touch the eyebrow or the eyelid?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Now in addition to checking the pupils, I believe you testified that you also checked the peripheral pulses.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  Please explain this, doctor, exactly what you mean by peripheral pulses.
A  Any pulse other than over the heart itself, the carotid pulse and the radial pulse.
Q  The carotid pulse is located where?
A  In the neck and the radial pulse is in the arm.
Q  And you testified that you checked, I believe, the heart for sounds of life there?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  And how did you do that?
A  With a stethoscope.
Q  Were there any other procedures which you recall taking in regard to body sounds?  Or regard to pronouncing death?
A  No.
Q  Now, doctor, was anyone with you at the time you did this?
A  There was a CID agent with me.
Q  Now I am going to show you a photograph, which has not yet been marked.  First let me ask the investigating officer to assign this a number.

COL ROCK:  This will be A-23.  Would you please show that to --

MR. EISMAN:  I was going to show this, but in order to keep the sequence in the same order which the witness testified to, if I may show him the rear bedroom first, it might at least keep things in sequence.

Q  I show you a photograph marked A-11, which I believe has been identified as a photograph of the rear bedroom and ask you whether you can identify this photograph.
A  Yes, that is a picture of the girl that was lying in the rear bedroom.
Q  Now when you arrived at the scene, and had occasion to examine the child, would you please indicate what pulses you had occasion to take?
A  Yes, we checked the carotid pulse in the neck and the peripheral pulse in one of the arms to determine at this time.
Q  Now you also had occasion to check the heart with a stethoscope?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Can you recall whether or not you had occasion to, in order to get to the heart, possibly move the body in any way?
A  Yes, we had to move the body.
Q  And in order to check the pupils, according to this photograph would you have had to move the body so that we -- you could get a better look?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Would it be fair to say that this photograph, if this was taken after the time you examined the child would not portray the child in the exact position she was when you examined her?
A  This is the position of the child before I examined her.
Q  Before you examined her?
A  Yes, sir.  I don't know what position she was in afterwards.
Q  You mean there was photographs taken before you examined her?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you were only permitted to examine the child after the photographs were taken?
A  Yes.
Q  Up until that time had any examination been taken of this child to determine whether or not there were any life signs?
A  To my knowledge, no.
Q  Were you there when these photographs were taken?
A  Yes, I was.
Q  And you were told to wait to check the life signs of this child by the CID until after the taking of the photographs?
A  Yes, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  This is the defense exhibit which was just marked.

(A-23 was shown to the IO and CPT Somers.)

Q  Let the record indicate I am showing the witness a photograph which has been marked as Accused Exhibit Number 23 by the investigating officer, and ask Captain Neal to state what he sees in this picture.  What the picture contains.
A  It contains the picture of what appears to be a female child that was noted to be in the front bedroom of the MacDonald home.
Q  In reference to this child, did you have occasion to check the life signs that you have testified before?
A  In respect to before or after the pictures were taken?
Q  First of all, did you have occasion to check the life signs?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  Now in reference to the time sequence, was this before or after the pictures had been taken?
A  After the pictures had been taken.
Q  And was this also a matter in which you are requested to wait until the CID had taken this photograph before you made your examination?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  To your knowledge, had a physician examined the child for vital signs?
A  To my knowledge, no.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no further questions at this time, but if your honor will indulge me for a moment, I might check with my co-counsel.  If the investigating officer would indulge me, I neglected to pursue certain fields of questions.  At this time let the record indicate I am showing the investigating officer a copy of a photograph, Exhibit A-17, also showing it to the government's attorney.  At this time I am presenting it to Doctor Neal and asking Doctor Neal whether he can identify what he sees in this photograph.
A  Yes, this is a picture of the adult female we discovered in the master bedroom on the night of the 17th.
Q  Now you've already testified as to the medical procedures which you followed regarding the checking of the vital life signs.  Would you tell me whether or not the time sequence was the same which you have testified that the photographs were taken first before you were permitted to examine the body?
A  Yes, sir that's correct.
Q  Now in reference to the photograph you see in this picture, after this photograph was taken did you have occasion to move the body of Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes, we rolled her over to check for any wounds in the back.
Q  At that time do you recall what happened to this blue piece of cloth, if you can recall?  If you can't recall, please tell us.
A  No, I can't recall.
Q  After the body was moved, do you know what was done with it?
A  We just rolled it up on its side and the body rolled back down on its back.
Q  And you don't know what happened or where this blue garment fell after you rolled it back?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Could it have fallen underneath the body partially?
A  I suppose it could have, yes, sir.
Q  In reference to -- in reference to Accused Exhibit A-11 which is the photograph of Kristen MacDonald, Captain Neal, would you tell me whether or not, after this picture was taken, you had occasion to move Kristen MacDonald's body?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  And what, if you can recall, was the movements which was necessary in order to conduct your examination?
A  I don't recall.  We again moved her to a position so that we could view the back, and to determine --
Q  Would the covers possibly have been moved from the position it was?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And the clothing moved of Kristen MacDonald also?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Would the child have been reversed on the back, or first on its stomach, and then on the stomach -- in other words to check --
A  Probably first on the back to check for vital signs.
Q  And after that time, actually you can't recall the exact position her body was left?
A  No.
Q  Unless you could see the photograph.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.

MR. EISMAN:  If I may, just for the record, request at this time if there are any photographs taken after the examination of the doctor with regard to the position of the bodies after the examination, if the government is in possession of such photographs.

COL ROCK:  If the government is in possession of photographs taken of the body after the doctor had finished his examination?

MR. EISMAN:  Yes, after they had been moved, in other words.  If I might state the relevancy of that point, sir.  The reason I am asking for that is that we have reason to believe and I can represent to this court we have reason to believe that the government will attempt to introduce certain evidence later which they believe to be physical evidence which was found in a position which they believe was improper with regard to the positioning of the bodies, and from the testimony of Doctor Neal, we see that the bodies were moved at one point, at least one point when the doctor conducted his examination, and that as a result of the moving, certain of these physical evidence might have been caused to appear in a position in which they were later found by laboratory technicians.  I believe it would be necessary at this point with the investigating officer in the future to know what position these bodies were moved into in order to adequately have knowledge or have an idea as to what effect the moving of the bodies have regarding the physical evidence which I believe the government will attempt to introduce later.

COL ROCK:  The motion is denied.  I currently cannot see any reason for bring such photos to the investigating officer's attention at this time, even should such photographs exist.  Should later testimony indicate that such evidence would be beneficial to me, I will cause action to inquire as to whether such photographs do, in fact, exist.  Please continue.

MR. EISMAN:  Would the investigating officer indulge me just a moment?

COL ROCK:  Sure.

Q  In reference to photograph marked Exhibit A-17, which is the photograph of the master bedroom and the body of Colette MacDonald, would you state from your knowledge whether or not it was necessary to move the blue top in order to check for vital life signs of the heart?
A  Yes, we did, we had to move it.
Q  Can you recall as to where this -- exactly -- this item was placed when it was moved?
A  No, I don't.
Q  Would it be fair to say that that was not your concern at the time you were checking her vital life signs?
A  That's correct.
Q  Your primary concern was that of a medical doctor and not as to where this blue top would fall.  Is that correct?
A  Correct.
Q  Now when you checked the pulses did you check the left arm as it appears or the right arm as you can recall?
A  I was standing on the left so I did check the left arm.
Q  That would be the arm which is extended above the head.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  And in checking that can you recall whether or not you had occasion to lift up the hand or arm in order to take that pulse?
A  Only just a matter of inches off the floor.
Q  But it was lifted off the floor and replaced at that time?
A  Yes, it was.
Q  Can you say at this point whether or not you recall replacing it in the exact position that it was before?  That was not your concern at that time?  Your only concern was conducting your examination.
A  I made no attempt to replace the portion of the body the way it was in the beginning.
Q  Now at the time you checked the body of Colette MacDonald, had a diagram been drawn on the floor around the body by the CID?
A  I do not recall, sir.
Q  And when I say diagram I am referring to a blue line -- pencil.  Do you recall seeing one?
A  I do not recall, sir.

MR. EISMAN:  If I may approach the investigating office and ask him to --

COL ROCK:  This will be Accused Exhibit Number 24.

MR. EISMAN:  Let the record reflect that I am showing a copy of Accused Exhibit 24 to the -- marked by the investigating officer -- to the counsel for the government.
Q  In order to assist you in answering the last question, I am showing you a photograph of the -- of what, to your knowledge, is this?
A  Simply a blood stain on the carpet.

COL ROCK:  Would you speak up?

A  A blood stain on the carpet beside a chair with a blue line, presumably an outline of a body beside a chair.
Q  Now, Captain Neal, where is that location, to your knowledge of this case?
A  In the master bedroom.
Q  And when you arrived at the master bedroom and were about to check Colette MacDonald, I believe you testified that you were informed to wait until the photographs were taken.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  Did you see any person that you knew or identified to you as an agent of the criminal investigation division making an outline of that body?
A  No, I did not.
Q  When you had occasion to lift up the body of Colette MacDonald, do you recall seeing any such outline on the floor?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Now when you did lift up the body to examine the back for blood stains, is it possible that the pajama top or the blue object which we saw on the body fell into this area?
A  I couldn't make a statement to that effect.  I don't know where the material went.
Q  At that time were the agents of the criminal investigation division assisting you in the medical examination of the victims, or permitting you to --
A  I was performing my medical duties.
Q  Did you have anyone to assist you at that time?
A  I did not.
Q  Were they with you or next to you when you did this?
A  Yes, they were.
Q  Did they in any way pick up this blue object when you first lifted up the body?
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  Did they touch any physical evidence in your presence?  While you were picking up the body.
A  Not to my knowledge.
Q  After you replaced the body, what did you do with reference to this one?
A  We simply left this room and went to the front bedroom.
Q  And you did not see what was done with the body of Colette MacDonald after that point?
A  No, I did not.
Q  In reference to photograph, Accused Number A-17, which displays the photograph of the body of Colette MacDonald in place, prior to the time, Captain Neal, you had an opportunity to examine it, would you tell us, please, Captain, what is this object to your knowledge on the stomach of Colette MacDonald?
A  The white object?
Q  Yes.
A  That's a towel.
Q  And did you have occasion to move that object in your examination or was it moved as a result of your moving the body of Colette?
A  It would have been moved.
Q  Did you have a possible occasion to touch it yourself?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Could you have touched it after you had touched the clothes of the body of Colette MacDonald?
A  Afterwards?
Q  In other words, after you had touched her pulse on her wrist, I believe you said it was the radial pulse, and lift her up to touch her back, is it possible that you could have removed that object after that?
A  Physically removed it?
Q  No, I am not saying physically removed it.  Let me rephrase the question.  Touch that object or remove it in some way after you --
A  Yes, it would have been moved in rolling the body.
Q  In your examination of Colette MacDonald, in checking her pulse and checking her other vital life signs, before you might have touched that object, is it possible that you had some blood on your hands?
A  Yes, sir, yes, it is.
Q  Is it fair to say, doctor, that as a medical doctor, when you were called to the scene to make an identification, that your only concern was doing your medical duties and you had no interest whatsoever in any criminal aspect of the scene?  Would that be a fair statement?
A  No, not entirely.
Q  Could you please tell us what your, at that time what you felt your professional responsibilities were?
A  In determining death.
Q  In determining death.  That was your primary concern?
A  Yes.
Q  You did not allow, except when interfered by others, any other consideration other than that primary determination?
A  Not professionally, no.
Q  And you would not permit any such interference with your professional responsibility, would you?
A  No, I wouldn't.
Q  Is it possible that in addition to the left hand of Colette MacDonald you had occasion to move her right hand, or if it was moved, could it have been moved during your examination?
A  Yes, it could have been moved.
Q  Did you yourself possibly touch the area within the outline of the body as it appeared in the photograph which I showed you in the process of examining Colette MacDonald?
A  In relationship to my body touching the specific area?
Q  Yes.
A  Yes, it is possible.
Q  Do you recall specifically anytime noting that you did receive blood on your hands during this examination?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Do you recall specifically in reference to the first bedroom as you went to -- in your examination, receiving blood?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Did you have occasion to wash your hands or scrub your hands after you did that?
A  Not at the house, no.
Q  Did you feel it necessary or of importance to wash your hands in reference to what your primary responsibilities were?  In other words, your primary responsibilities were to determine death.  Was it necessary to wash your hands in making the determination between the bodies?
A  No, it wasn't.
Q  What were you wearing on that evening?
A  I was wearing a set of Class A green Army uniform with a rain coat, and my --
Q  When you arrived at the scene for the examination did you have occasion to remove your rain coat?
A  No, I didn't.
Q  Do you remember getting any blood on your uniform or your rain coat?
A  No, I don't.
Q  But you do recall specifically receiving such blood at least on your hands?
A  Yes, I do.
Q  Now, also if I may back up to the first bedroom that you examined.  Do you recall seeing a blue outline on the sheet of where the body was before you examined it?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Do you think when you raised the body up that you would have recalled seeing such an outline?

CPT SOMERS:  Objected to.  Calls for a conclusion.

MR. EISMAN:  I'm asking the witness whether he would recall if there is something he feels would be recalled to his attention.  If it were there I think he is capable of answering and explaining if he is unable to answer.

CPT BEALE:  The objection is overruled.  You may answer the question.

Q  Doctor, do you think you would have recalled such an outline if having been drawn there as you lifted up the body of the child?
A  I do not recall any outline.
Q  Doctor Neal -- I'm sorry -- Captain Neal, I am going to ask you to refer to photograph A-23, which I believe you have identified as a photograph of Kimberly MacDonald.  Is that correct?
A  Of a young female child, yes.
Q  Who was subsequently identified to you as Kimberly?
A  Yes, that is correct.
Q  If you can explain to the investigating officer what you had to do to examine each of the life signs which you have outlined, that you did do regarding this child specifically.  What would you have had to do regarding, first of all, examining the pulses of this child?
A  We would have to pull down the covers somewhat to bare the chest and we would have had to roll the child on her back.  We would have had to lift the eyelids to check for the dilatation of the pupil, and we would have had to lift the front cover to listen for the heart and lung sounds.  We would have had to roll the body over back on it side to check for wounds on the back.

COL ROCK:  Can we get out of the conditional tense into the past tense, stating, if this was what was done, I'm assuming that's what you are -- this is what you did do, is that correct?

WITNESS:  That's correct, sir.

Q  So therefore you had occasion -- it would have been necessary to move not only the body position but move the cover in a substantial manner in order to perform your medical duties. Is that correct, doctor?
A  That's correct.
Q  And up until that time had you seen any agent of the criminal investigation division take any physical evidence from the bed or from the area of the child?
A  No, I did not.
Q  The only thing which you can testify today then, I assume, is that you only saw the photographs being taken before you were permitted to examine the body.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  That's the only thing you can testify to?  And in order to have examined the child, you did move the child and move the blankets in a substantial manner.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  And would your testimony be the same as far as the child shown in Exhibit A-11, which you have identified as a photograph of the body of Kristen MacDonald?

CPT BEALE:  Mr. Eisman, I think this has already been established.  I think the witness has testified --

MR. EISMAN:  That was my last question in this line.

CPT BEALE:  All right.

Q  Just one more series of questions, was the stethoscope which you used on Kristen MacDonald, after you used it on her, washed or in any way or was scrubbed?
A  No it was not.
Q  And after it was used on Colette MacDonald was it washed or any way scrubbed before it was used on Kimberly MacDonald?
A  No, it was not.
Q  Is it possible that some particles of blood or some blood would have attached itself to the stethoscope during your examinations?
A  It may be possible.
Q  And could the same be true as far as any blood or fibers or other foreign objects in reference to your examination being carried from one body to another?  Is it possible?
A  Yes, it is possible.

MR. EISMAN:  I have no further questions.

COL ROCK:  Counsel for the government?

Questions by CPT SOMERS:
Q  Doctor Neal, you said you could approximate the time that you arrived at that house.  Would you do so?
A  Yes, sir, it was about 4:45 am.
Q  Now do you have any way of knowing whether someone checked the vital signs of these bodies before you arrived?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Did you supervise or participate in any of the evidence taking that was done by the criminal investigation agents?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Were you present at the time at all that this was done in any one of those rooms?
A  Just to the extent of having the pictures taken prior to the examination.
Q  Just the pictures?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you are not sure, I presume, what may have been done by the CID which you did not see?
A  That is correct.
Q  Did you knowingly -- well, let me rephrase that.  Do you know of any specific area in any one of those rooms which you personally contaminated with blood from some other room?
A  No, I do not.
Q  This towel which was on the body of Mrs. MacDonald, and which you may have touched, do you know that you did contaminate it with her blood?
A  No, I do not.
Q  You say you rolled Mrs. MacDonald upon its side?
A  Yes.
Q  Is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  And then what did you do?  To replace her.
A  We just let the body roll back.
Q  Now you use the pronoun "we"; I presume you are using this in a professional sense?
A  Yes, correct, I.
Q  Do you remember any foreign objects falling or any objects falling down into the area that the body was lying and being covered by the body when you rolled it back?  
A  No, I do not.
Q  Do you know that that blue material fell down in that area?
A  No, I do not.
Q  Do you remember seeing that blue material on her body?
A  Yes, I do.

CPT SOMERS:  I have no further questions of this witness.

MR. EISMAN:  If I may, I have just a few questions on re-cross.

Questions by MR. EISMAN:
Q  In reference to the questions that Captain Somers asked you, is it possible that this blue object did fall in the area we have indicated as the body outline?
A  I presume that is possible.
Q  And is it possible that you did, during the course of your examination, touch the white towel and thereby place some blood on it which you might have had on your hands prior to that touching?
A  It is possible, yes.
Q  And did you, in making the examination of the master bedroom, have occasion to kneel on the floor?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  And is it possible that you knelt in the area, was in the area of the body outline while you were making your examination?
A  My clothing or my body may have touched that area, yes.
Q  Doctor, Captain Neal, would you tell me what exact time you left the premises?
A  Approximately 5:20.
Q  Approximately how long were you in the premises?
A  From 4:45 until 5:20.
Q  Approximately how many people do you recall being in there, if you can recall?  If you can't --
A  No, I can't recall.
Q  Can you give us an approximate number?
A  There was a good number of people in there, but I have no idea.
Q  Many people walking in and out as you recall?
A  I don't recall.
Q  During that time you were did you see any physical evidence being taken by the CID or the bodies being removed at all?
A  No.
Q  Approximately how much time -- well, if you can, approximate how much time you spent in each room in performing your medical duties.
A  I couldn't give that approximation.
Q  Where would you say you spent most of the time in the house after you completed your medical duties?
A  I left the house immediately after I completed my duties.
Q  Would you say it took you just about the full time you were there to do your duties and after you completed them you left the house?
A  Yes, sir, right, except for the pictures.
Q  Actually how long did that take?
A  I have no idea.
Q  Could it have been more than five minutes?  
A  Yes, sir, it could have.
Q  More than ten minutes?
A  Yes.
Q  Where were you standing while the pictures were being taken?
A  I don't recall.
Q  Could it have been more than fifteen minutes?
A  I don't -- I don't know.
Q  Would you please give me the instructions which you received when you arrived to perform your medical duties with regard to when you would be permitted to do them?
A  I was stopped at the front door and instructed that there was physical evidence throughout the house which could not be moved or touched, and he pointed out to me the officer or the CID agent who would be guiding me through the house.  I was requested to follow his instructions on exactly what to do.
Q  Now from the time you were waiting for the photographs to be taken did you see any other physician on the premises?
A  Not recognizable, no one that I knew.
Q  To your knowledge of this case, after reviewing your records and the records of the case, did any other doctor pronounce the bodies dead before you did?
A  I have no record on that.
Q  Did anybody, after you pulled the bed clothing down on the two children replace it, if you can recall, or did you, yourself, after --
A  I did not see anyone replace it.
Q  I am referring to the bedclothing now, the covering up of the child at all, could you have done it?
A  I saw no one replace that clothing.
Q  Could you state whether you know when you left, left the children in the exact same position and the bodies, all of the bodies, in the exact same position that you found them?  If you'd like to refer to the picture, I will give them to you, but if you can state without referring to them --
A  Please, could you restate the question?
Q  Do you know whether or not you left the bodies in the exact same position as before you examined them?
A  No, I do not.

MR. EISMAN:  I have nothing further at this time.

COL ROCK:  I have several questions.  Captain Neal, to your knowledge was Captain MacDonald in the house while you were present?

WITNESS:  Not to my knowledge, sir.

COL ROCK:  Can you from your professional knowledge, determine what type instrument probably caused the stab wounds you've described?  For instance, were they dimensions that could have been an ice pick or was it of a dimension that could have been a large sword or what would your professional --

WITNESS:  Sir, the nearest recollection I have the wounds were of an approximately a half inch in width, and from that point on I couldn't make a determination.

COL ROCK:  From your professional knowledge, could you indicate what type of instrument may have struck the blow on the child that you described in, I believe, the front bedroom?

WITNESS:  Sir, it appeared to have been a blunt instrument of some sort.

COL ROCK:  Did you remove or cause to the bodies to be removed at the time that you departed?

WITNESS:  Physically from the house, sir?

COL ROCK:  Right.

WITNESS:  No, I did not, sir.

COL ROCK:  In your professional competence, can you establish the approximate time of death?

WITNESS:  No, I cannot, sir.

COL ROCK:  How fresh was the blood?  Was the blood still flowing while you were there?  Had it begun to coagulate, or is there any way that you can describe it in layman's terms that I can get any sense from?

WITNESS:  Sir, the blood was already dried by the time I arrived at the house.

COL ROCK:  From that knowledge, how long does it take for blood to reach that stage?

WITNESS:  It varies, sir, with each individual, however, blood will begin to clot within ten to thirty seconds.

COL ROCK:  And let us establish a minimum or a maximum time for coagulation.

WITNESS:  That would be very difficult to do, sir.

COL ROCK:  It is.  Is it within the realm of possibility, you've mentioned ten to thirty seconds, is it from, say, one second to one hour or -- or what?

WITNESS:  Within a minute, sir.

COL ROCK:  Within about a minute.  I have no further questions.

CPT SOMERS:  None by the government.

MR. SEGAL:  None for the accused, sir.

COL ROCK:  Captain Neal you are advised that you will discuss your testimony with no person other than either counsel for the accused or counsel for the government.  Do you understand that?

WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I do.

COL ROCK:  You are excused subject to recall.

(The witness saluted the IO and departed the room.)

COL ROCK:  Is the government prepared with its next witness?

CPT SOMERS:  No, sir, for the reasons I have discussed, the next witness is out of order.  I presume that the next witness is here but I do need about fifteen to twenty for preparation.

COL ROCK:  All right, we will take a fifteen to twenty minute recess.

MR. EISMAN:  Could I ask who the witness is?

COL ROCK:  Yes, certainly.

CPT SOMERS:  The witness is Pamela Kalin.

COL ROCK:  We are recessed for fifteen minutes.

(The hearing recessed at 1038 hours, 10 July 1970.)