Affidavits, Declarations and Statements

July 12, 1984

United States District Court
Eastern District of North Carolina

Affidavit #7 of Raymond Madden, Jr. (FBI) re: Ted Gunderson

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA : Criminal No. 75-26-CR-3
v. : Criminal No. 84-41-CIV-3

Raymond Madden, Jr., being duly sworn does depose and say that:

1. I am a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (hereafter FBI), assigned to the Raleigh, N.C., Resident Agency of the FBI.

2. On September 21, 1981, Ted L. Gunderson, President, Ted L. Gunderson and Associates, Incorporated, a private investigative firm, Los Angeles, California, was telephonically contacted on September 21, 1981, by Special Agent Raymond Madden, Jr., of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. After introducing himself to Gunderson, Special Agent Madden requested that Gunderson be available for interview as Gunderson had previously indicated to the FBI Office in Raleigh, N.C., that he would be willing to talk with Special Agent Raymond Madden, Jr.

3. At this point in the conversation Gunderson advised that his attorney preferred that he not talk to the FBI. When asked who his attorney was, Gunderson advised that the attorney handling the MacDonald case was Bernard Segal of San Francisco, CA.

4. Gunderson stated that after initially being contacted by the FBI regarding a possible interview, he contacted Dr. Jeff MacDonald, who requested that Gunderson not submit to interview without Bernard Segal being present. Gunderson related that he would like to talk to the FBI; however, he would have to decline interview.

5. Gunderson was informed that the interview was not to be conducted regarding Dr. MacDonald, but was in reference to statements provided to Gunderson by Helena Stoeckley Davis. Gunderson related that he would recontact Segal to determine whether or not he should submit to an interview and requested that he be recontacted by the interviewing Agent.

6. At approximately 5:00 P.M., September 21, 1981, Special Agent Raymond Madden, Jr., again telephonically contacted Gunderson at which time he advised he did not see anything wrong with him being interviewed by the FBI; however, he did not want to alienate anybody. He would like to be interviewed by the FBI and did not like being in the position of being an adversary with the U.S. Government. He informed his clients when he took the MacDonald case that the "chips will fall where they may". He stated that he has to keep peace with all involved in this case, and possibly would submit to interview after recontacting Segal on September 22, 1981.

7. Gunderson made note that the only other possible leads to be covered by the FBI in Los Angeles, Ca., were interviews of the polygraph operator and the psychologist who examined Helena Davis in Los Angeles, CA., as outlined in his investigative report. He requested to know of the interviewing Agent whether or not a signed statement had been obtained from Helena Davis by the FBI and he was informed that one had been obtained and recorded. At this point, Gunderson advised that Helena "runs hot and cold."

8. Gunderson stated that should he consent to an interview with the FB1 on September 22, 1981, and it be agreeable with all parties involved, that it would be necessary for him to record the interview and he was informed by Special Agent Madden that this would be entirely acceptable with the FBI.

9. Gunderson was further informed by Special Agent Madden that if he had obtained evidence indicating that a felony had been committed by someone other than Dr. MacDonald as reported in his investigation, that the FBI was desirous of obtaining this information.

10. On September 22,1981, Ted L. Gunderson, Ted L. Gunderson and Associates, Los Angeles, Ca., was telephonically contacted by Special Agent Raymond Madden, Jr. He advised as follows:

11. Bernard L. Segal, Dr. MacDonald's attorney, had requested that Gunderson not be interviewed by the FBI regarding this matter. Gunderson stated that whether Segal likes it or not he would be willing to talk to the FBI after the oral arguments regarding the MacDonald case had been heard by the Supreme Court. Gunderson was of the opinion that he had to honor Segal's request at this time, but specifically noted he would be happy to be interviewed after Supreme Court arguments.

12. Gunderson opined that the Statute of Limitations had run out on the MacDonald case and stated that the U.S. Government had abolished the death penalty. He stated that Dr. MacDonald would never be tried again.

13. On September 22, 1981, Bernard L. Segal, Attorney, San Francisco, California was telephonically contacted at his residence, telephone number 415-388-9261, and immediately informed of the identity of the interviewing Agent. Segal was informed that the FBI was desirous of interviewing Ted L. Gunderson, Los Angeles, California, regarding Gunderson's investigation of the MacDonald murders.

14. Segal stated that it was his legal opinion that Gunderson was not free to discuss the MacDonald case and that the information developed by Gunderson was privileged. Segal was specifically asked whether or not he wanted the FBI or the Department of Justice to pursue this investigation, at which time he requested that any investigative questions to Gunderson be submitted to him in writing. Segal stated that the information developed by Gunderson in his investigative report speaks for itself and that Gunderson's creditability and background were well established. Segal stated that the information obtained was truthful.

15. At this point, Special Agent Madden informed Segal that if Gunderson had developed information that Helena Stoeckley Davis had violated a federal law, that the FBI was desirous of obtaining and/or verifying this information. He was informed that the FBI's only interest in this case was to conduct an impartial investigation in an attempt to obtain truthful facts and details. Segal replied by stating that the FBI had probably had in its possession a copy of Gunderson's report which in all likelihood had never been reviewed by the U.S. Department of Justice in Washington, D.C., or specifically by Departmental Attorney Brian Murtagh. Segal stated that he felt the Department of Justice was using the FBI to discredit the investigation conducted by Gunderson. He reiterated that it was his legal opinion and direction that the FBI should not interview Gunderson under any circumstances without first submitting to him a list of questions to be asked of Gunderson.

16. On September 22, 1981, Ted L. Gunderson, President, Ted L. Gunderson and Associates, Incorporated, was telephonically contacted at the Allied Protective Service, Los Angeles, California, telephone number 933-7491. Gunderson advised as follows:

17. Gunderson stated that Bernard Segal had gotten involved in this matter now, and that he would not be able to submit to an interview with the FBI. He requested that prior to being interviewed that Mr. Segal be contacted at either his office in San Francisco, telephone number 415-442-7295, or at his home in San Francisco, telephone number 415-388-9261.

18. Gunderson stated that prior to submitting to interview, Segal wanted a list of questions submitted in writing by the FBI and noted that these questions should be submitted directly to Segal for his perusal. When asked specifically whether or not Mr. Segal was Gunderson's attorney, Gunderson replied that Segal was not, and noted that Segal was Dr. MacDonald's attorney. Gunderson stated that he was hired in 1979 to investigate the MacDonald murders by friends of Dr. MacDonald, who furnished him a retainer. He advised that his firm has spent 1200 hours on the case and that he has personally investigated 800 hours and noted that this hourly fee is $100 per hour. At the present time his clients owe him $120,000; however, Dr. MacDonald's friends state they are no longer responsible for his investigative bills, in view of the fact that Dr. MacDonald is out of jail.

19. Gunderson stated that at the present time he does not have a client as far as he is concerned, but stated he has to respect Segal's legal opinions and therefore, he would not submit to interview. Gunderson stated that after oral arguments had been finished at the Supreme Court regarding the MacDonald case, that he would, at that time, voluntarily be interviewed by the FBI regardless of what Segal requested. He was of the opinion at that time he would have no obligation to his clients and would be happy to be interviewed.

20. Gunderson was of the opinion that Helena Stoeckley Davis probably had retracted her confessions and noted that he had in his possession many confessions from her regarding the MacDonald case. He also stated that Fred Bost, Fayetteville, North Carolina, and Fred Barbash of the Washington Post, also had confessions from Helena Stoeckley Davis.

21. Gunderson also noted at Helena had recently talked to Prince Beasley and Beasley was of the opinion that she will try to discredit Gunderson.

22. Gunderson requested to know the investigative Agent's opinion of the case, at which time he was informed by your affiant that the investigation presently being conducted by the FBI was merely to determine the truthful facts of the case.

23. Gunderson continued and stated that he had conducted a lengthy investigation and had interviewed Jan Snyder, who alleged that she saw a car in front of her residence during the early morning hours February 17, 1970. Gunderson also advised that Helena Davis recalled hearing a barking dog and described a jewelry box in detail to Gunderson. Gunderson also related that Helena Davis had described a rocking horse to him and he stated that she had never seen a photograph of the rocking horse in the Fayetteville newspaper. All of the above points indicated to Gunderson that Helena Davis was telling the truth regarding the MacDonald murders.

Further your affiant sayeth not:

/Raymond Madden, Jr./
Special Agent
Subscribed and sworn to
before me this    12th   
day of July, 1984.


My Commission Expires May 31, 1985