August 15, 1974
Testimony of Jeffrey MacDonald
I, Manie P. Currin, being a Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of North Carolina, was appointed to take the following proceedings in the above-entitled matter which was heard, in part, before the Grand Jury, Raleigh, North Carolina, on Thursday and Friday, August 15 and 16, 1974, commencing at 9:30 a.m. Mr. Samuel S. Epperson, Foreman, was presiding, and all Grand Jurors were present for all segments of the August 15 and 16, 1974 hearing.
DR. JEFFREY R. MACDONALD, being called back to the witness stand, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
MR. WOERHEIDE: Dr. MacDonald, I'm sorry for the delay. The grand jury had some other matters to discuss this morning prior to hearing your testimony.
DR. MacDONALD: Okay.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Like to remind you at this time that your testimony is being given under oath pursuant to the oath administered to you on Monday of this week. We have just one or two little items of unfinished business.
You remember I requested that you consider taking a polygraph examination, and I suggested that you consult with your counsel with respect to this.
Q Have you given the -- it full consideration, do you wish to consider it further?
A We have given it full consideration.
Q What is your decision?
A Well, I kind of -- it's a rather lengthy answer, and I'm going to have to refer to some notes if that's okay.
Q In this connection, I also mentioned a sodium amytal examination. I think you know what I'm referring to --
Q -- if I don't have the correct technical term for the drug that is administered. And when you give us your response, will you please make it with reference both to the request for the polygraph examination and the sodium amytal examination?
A Yes, sir, may I refer to some notes then?
Q Please do.
A My attorneys have advised me as follows in regard to their recommendations to me concerning these requests:
Reference to the polygraph and sodium penathol interview.
They have advised me the polygraph machine is not a lie detector. They say the term "lie detector" is loosely used in newspaper and television. That there is no responsible person anywhere that claims the polygraph or any other device can tell, quote, "when someone is lying," end quote.
My attorneys tell me that the polygraph is simply a device which measures blood pressure, rate of breathing, and traumatic skin response which is simply sweating.
He advised me that no scientist has ever been able to suggest why measuring these three physical responses will give a responsible indication about whether the person is answering deceptively.
They advised me in fact that it has been suggested that one might just as well measure the amount of saliva in the mouth, the grumbling in the stomach, or the blink rate of the eyes, and call that a polygraph.
My attorneys tell me that the most that any responsible person will say about the polygraph is that a skilled operator can interpret blood pressure, breathing and sweating, and then give his opinion as to whether the subject is engaged in quote, "a pattern of deception," end quote.
But they advise me that it must be remembered that it is totally a subjective interpretation of the examiner we receive, because the machine itself, the polygraph, is not offered by its supporters as being able to tell us anything at all.
Further, my attorneys advise me that even the strongest responsible supporters of the polygraph have been forced to admit that they cannot claim anywhere near one hundred percent accuracy.
All of the above discussion is based upon what the supporters of the polygraph claim, but Mr. Eisman and Mr. Malley have explained to me that the overwhelming scientific view in the United States and the rest of the free world, is that the polygraph cannot and should not be accepted as an indication of whether or not someone is telling the truth.
These attorneys have told me the polygraph results are overwhelmingly rejected in Federal Courts in the United States, and that polygraph results are overwhelmingly rejected in State Courts in the United States.
For our Courts admit all legally obtained evidence which obtain the truth as long as the evidence is considered reliable.
The Courts have overwhelmingly rejected the use of the polygraph results because they do not meet the fundamental standards of reliability.
Furthermore, Senator Ervin, former Associate Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court, has spoken out vigorously against any attempts to use any polygraph results.
My attorneys additionally tell me that a full Congressional hearing has been held in the House of Representatives on the subject of the polygraph. And it showed clearly, quote, "that the polygraph is not a lie detector," unquote.
And the investigation showed further that the polygraph is in fact used largely for improper purposes.
Finally, my attorneys tell me that at least twelve states have already made the use of the polygraph illegal in various circumstances.
For these reasons, it is the firm recommendation of my attorneys that no legitimate purpose could be served by my undergoing the ordeal of the polygraph.
Sodium amytal. Mr. Malley has called to my attention as part of his advice that he has known me for twelve years. That we were in the same class at Princeton. That we were roommates prior to my marriage to Colette.
That in the military, he represented me in the Article 32 we have been discussing. And we have talked at length about my feelings, my emotional well-being, and my -- excuse me -- ability to cope with the memories in my life after these murders.
In his opinion, he believes he knows me as well as he knows anyone and to the extent it is possible for one man ever to understand another, he believes he understands my feelings towards myself and my life.
In his professional opinion, it would be prohibitively dangerous for me to undergo a sodium amytal examination. He based this on several factors.
One, in the psychiatric and other medical opinions, sodium amytal is a drug which causes a person to essentially relive the episode.
This is not simply recalling, as most of us recall the past, but it is a complete reliving with most or all of the emotional feelings, anguish, fear and grief to go with the experience.
After the session -- I'm sorry --
FOREMAN: Take your time, Doctor, take your time.
A After the session, this experience is remembered, and the person has the same reactions as if he had actually relived what was discussed.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Dr. MacDonald, you are reading that. Would you prefer to have it marked as an exhibit and placed in the grand jury record that way?
A Yes. I think I'm over that part. I'll just finish if it's okay.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right.
A After the session, this experience is remembered, and the person has the same reactions as if he had actually relived what was discussed.
Because he knows me so well and knows the murders of my family are the most unspeakably difficult thing I've ever faced, he believes that I cannot recall to the day or describe them without the constant problem of breaking down.
I function normally because I try so hard to avoid having to recall, to re-tell and to relive.
I usually am successful in avoiding to have to confront these memories in direct detail, but this success is a day-to-day battle.
Mr. Malley believes as does Mr. Segal that if I were to undergo the sodium amytal session, the reliving the murders would be so emotionally upsetting that I would not thereafter be able to pick up my life.
They believe that a drug-induced flashback would be so painful that my normal and largely successful to date attempts to live with this grief would be destroyed, either permanently for for a long time, so as to make me incapable of living under the circumstances as a normal person in a professional life as is now possible.
Mr. Segal believes that there is a more helpful and less painful method of evaluating, and that is competent psychiatric testimony.
Psychiatrists who have evaluated me at great length, and their testimony is a matter of record in the Article 32 investigation. They have stated under oath that I did not appear to them as professionals to be lying or evading the questions.
Accordingly, they did not feel that the extreme and dangerous resort of the sodium nembutal was warranted. Dr. Sadoff advised us, therefore, against such a session.
Mr. Malley and Mr. Segal, both of whom are friends and lawyers charged with representing my best interests, cannot recommend that I undergo the sodium nembutal. And my advice from them in the strongest possible terms is not to undergo such a potentially debilitating experience.
Mr. Malley and Mr. Segal advised me, however, that in their opinions there is a third method whereby the grand jury can obtain some potentially usable information, about the accuracy and credibility of my testimony.
This method would not involve a device without reliability -- correction -- would not involve a device so without reliability so as to be found unacceptable as evidence in Courts, nor a method as dangerous as to present a dangerous risk of emotional harm to me.
What they suggest is a method that was used by an Army grand jury and found to be of genuine value.
In that proceeding, the grand jury heard the testimony of Dr. Sadoff, a forensic psychiatrist who testified pertaining to a number of matters about me, including whether or not I had told the truth about the deaths of my family and my own injuries.
As a result of that test, I agreed to be examined by a three-man board of Army psychiatrists at Walter Reed Medical Center in Washington.
The testimony of the Chief of Psychiatry at Walter Reed, Dr. Bruce Bailey, was also heard at the grand jury. The transcript of this grand jury proceeding on page 1598 shows that Dr. Bailey concluded and testified under oath that I did not attempt to hide the truth about the circumstances of the murders of my family or my injuries.
To sum it up, sir, in my terms, they have advised me not to undergo a sodium amytal interview or the polygraph procedure.
Q Well, that is certainly your privilege, sir, and no one will make any effort -- any inferences on the grounds that you have not agreed to subject yourself to these tests.
I did suggest to Mr. Segal, who had requested that we bring Dr. Sadoff to testify before the grand jury, that we would like to have an additional psychiatric examination made at this time, four years later, by a -- another psychiatrist or team of psychiatrists and psychologists to be selected by the Department of Justice.
Would you be agreeable to that procedure, sir?
A (No answer.)
Q Or do you want to give it further consideration? I'm not pressing you for an answer. This is something we can arrange at a later date by correspondence and phone calls.
I'll not even ask you for a definitive answer before you leave Raleigh.
A No, I don't see any reason why I wouldn't be willing to undergo another psychiatric examination. As a physician, it's just curious to me as to what that would attempt to show, you know, four years later. I'm just in my mind -- the answer is, yes, if the grand jury thinks that Dr. Sadoff's and Dr. Bailey's testimony is inadequate, sure.
Q All right, well, I thank you for that answer, and I'm not going to say at this time that we will proceed to make the arrangements, but it is possible that we will do so.
At that time we will communicate with you either directly or through Mr. Segal, as you prefer.
Q We had one other request. You testified in substance that at the suggestion -- I think initially of Captain Douthett -- you kept a pad of paper nearby you and over a period of time, perhaps over a period of a month, you would jot down from time to time anything that you recalled and you turned these notes over to your attorneys. And they retained these notes.
I ask you if you would be willing to have those notes made available, either in their entirety, or with excerpts that could be made by copying them on a Xerox machine, blanking out certain lines, words, or paragraphs, and you were going to take that under consideration. Have you?
A Let me do that and give you the answer at one o'clock.
I mentioned it once, and Mr. Segal spiraled through the roof, stating that was obviously attorney-client stuff.
Q That is privileged.
A I know that. I understand that. I wanted to say that I never really got an answer. We just never got back to it. It just completely slipped.
Let me just ask him at lunch, and I'll give you a response at one o'clock if that's okay.
Q Okay, and I have just a couple of items that related to your testimony yesterday.
You remember that you mentioned that you had several guns in the house.
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you keep any ammunition in the house?
A There was probably some in that -- in the same -- in that same box.
Q Do you recall how much you had in the way of ammunition?
A No, I believe by the way, in addition to what we were stating, unless I had earlier sold it, there was an old British 303 Army -- you know -- Army-Navy store, twenty-five dollar special, again.
A If that was still there, there was one or two clips of ammunition in that.
There was probably a box of ammunition for the 30-30, and maybe some .22 ammunition.
Q All right, and do you remember the name of a young lady came up of a young lady that you allegedly had visit you at the BOQ.
I didn't have a name to give you at that time. Does the name, Linda Grace Matthews mean anything to you?
A Linda Matthews, right.
Q And how about Paige Dunn, P-a-i-g-e, do you know her?
A No, sir.
Q Well, did she have a friend who double-dated with you?
A That's right, that was a double date, that's right.
Q That would be Paige Dunn?
A I believe so.
Q And the -- your partner on the double date was Captain Robert McPherson, is that correct?
A Bob McPherson, that's correct, right.
Q And he was one of your escort officers?
A Escort officers, right.
Q All right, now --
A May I give you some things that you asked for yesterday?
Q Yes, I'd be very glad to have them.
A First, let me state first that some of this is our only copy, and I would appreciate it if the Government could photocopy it and return it to us if that's possible before we leave on Friday.
Q Yes, we'll do that.
A These are only copies, definitely our only copies, and Mr. Segal definitely wanted them back.
Q All right.
A The first three -- well, the first thing is a statement taken under oath by Franz Grebner, Chief Warrant Officer, United States of America versus Captain MacDonald. And it's -- it's a eighty-six page statement from Mr. Grebner.
Q All right, I will have our reporter mark these as exhibits, but I will return them to you before you leave.
A Thank you, sir. The second is a -- I don't know how many pages, but an exhibit from the same type of interview from Mr. Robert Shaw.
And the third is a statement from Mr. William Ivory.
Q All right, thank you, and --
A The --
A The only other two things, we need copies, we need these back. The rest are not -- one is an affidavit from my lawyers, regarding the aerosol given General Tolson, but this is the only copy he says he has, and we would like that back.
Q All right.
A This is a copy of a newspaper article in which Mr. Coolidge charged that this whole thing was put on by my attorneys.
Q All right, sir.
A That is the limit of the stuff that I need copies of. The rest of this we have copies of.
Q Let me have the reporter place a mark on these identifying them as exhibits, and then we will take up the rest of them.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Will you mark these, Dr. MacDonald Exhibits 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 of this date, please?
(MacDONALD EXHIBITS 1, 2, 3, 4 AND 5, DATED 8-15-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) What are these items?
A This is an article from the Fayetteville Observer on 7-27-70, which is an eyewitness account allegedly of the incident from an observer.
A This is the list of witnesses allegedly investigated by the FBI, the eyewitnesses to the event.
Q To the assault to your attorneys?
A Right, this is a Xerox copy of a request from apparently the Pentagon for an investigation into that event, sent to Fort Bragg.
Q All right.
A And this is the report in which they state that Mr. Eisman knocked himself out.
Q All right, sir.
A That is it, sir. This is it.
Q All right.
MR. WOERHEIDE: You have these five already? Let's mark these 6, 7, 8 and 9, and while you're doing that, is it all right to take a short break?
FOREMAN: We'll take about a ten-minute break.
(MacDONALD EXHIBITS 6, 7, 8 AND 9, DATED 8-15-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
EXAMINATION RESUMED BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
Q Dr. MacDonald, going back to sometime before February 16, will you recount the events as you recall them that culminated with the assault upon you, on the night of February 16 and February 17?
I noticed in the Cummings interview, it starts with a discussion with Lt. Harrison, at your home, predicated on some magazine article, and Esquire magazine, dealing with the Sharon Tate murder.
Now, do you want to start there or do you want to start at an earlier time that preceding week?
A I would really hate to start there, because it magnifies a very insignificant thing that's been blown out of proportion, but it's an easy starting point.
Q All right, let's start there.
A The weekend was -- I guess Valentine's Day was Friday, and on Saturday, Ron came over in the afternoon, and we were just sitting watching T.V. or talking or something.
And since I'm sure you're going to ask me about it, I might as well explain it.
In the Cummings article it mentioned that we were discussing an Esquire magazine article.
What really happened was that, as I remember it, we were sitting there just talking -- you know -- shooting the breeze, so to speak, and the magazine was laying on the coffee table. And either Ron or I picked it up and said, there's some really unbelievable articles in here. And he said, what do you mean? And I specifically was discussing -- some of the ladies will pardon me -- the article in regards to -- there was a Lethia or Lydia -- the article was something about "Lydia and the Black Swan." It was the story where this female was copulating with a black swan, or something to that effect. It was a really bizarre story.
And there was -- it was a comment or two in passing about the other articles in the magazine.
The title -- the cover story was, "Lee Marvin is Afraid," or "Evil Lurks in California," and I think the cover picture was Lee Marvin.
And we thumbed through the magazine, and that was it.
That's all there ever was, and for some reason this has become a tremendously important thing in my life.
Q All right, now, let's proceed with your story in your own way.
A Well, I don't know if Ron ate dinner with us or not. I don't even remember what we did that night.
I presume we stayed home, because I had to work the next morning. The next morning I was going to work at the Hamlet Hospital.
Hamlet was about fifty or sixty miles, I believe from Fort Bragg, and I had to be there at six a.m. So I don't think we went out Saturday night. I believe it was just like a night at home.
I don't know if Ron stayed for dinner or not.
You know, I was home with Colette and the kids. And early Sunday morning -- I'd say 4:30 or so -- I got up, showered and shaved and drove to Hamlet. And -- you know -- I have a little bag with me with some medical equipment in it, usually a change of underwear, and toilet articles.
And I got to Hamlet. I changed, and I had breakfast, I guess. They're really nice to the doctors who work in their emergency rooms, and they usually had the cook fix a steak or something. So I guess -- I'm sure I had breakfast.
It's a very easy job at Hamlet. It wasn't at all like Cape Fear Valley or not even nearly what I'm doing now. It was really someone to be there in case an automobile accident occurred.
I believe over the next twenty-four hours I probably saw somewhere, twenty to thirty people. Twenty-five people I would say would be approximate.
Usually -- you know -- mostly in the daytime hours and early evening hours, but very few at night.
I spent -- I checked some house patients. They ask you to make rounds on some of the more severely ill patients at Hamlet. That's not a usual emergency physician's job, but in a small hospital you're the only one in the hospital sometimes. So I checked a couple of ill patients.
There was one little girl, I believe at that time, whose -- who had a ruptured appendix and had been operated on and she was bleeding post-operatively -- and I think this is the time -- so I made several visits to her room. And I had a long discussion with her mom, I think, because her mom was really worried about the care that had been given.
The last -- I had several meals during the day. I took -- you know -- a nap or two, probably in the morning right after breakfast, I probably went back to my room and slept for an hour or two. Did some reading. And I probably had about five and a half or six hours of sleep. This would have been Sunday night, from roughly midnight on, I think there was only one patient after midnight.
You want me to go on?
Q Just go on, yeah.
A I got up the next morning. The nurse awakened me at six or quarter to six, or something like that.
I went to see -- if this is the same weekend -- I -- now, really the first time I think I really recalled this was probably at the April 6 interview, but I think -- you know -- in thinking back it was the same weekend and there was this very ill little girl.
I checked her after I got dressed, and I think I may have talked to her mother again. I think her mother kind of sat there throughout the night, and then I went -- you know -- I zipped back to Fort Bragg.
And I believe I didn't shower and shave at the hospital, because I know I went home for breakfast. I think I went home for breakfast. I would have had breakfast.
And I -- really I say this, sir, now, with -- I'm -- you know -- I have re-read this. It's not pure recollection.
So -- but, the statement sounds very definite, but it gets very hazy. But if you have read it two or three times and you have testified as to it, you say, well, I'm really recollecting testimony, when I'm not actually recollecting the actual act.
Q Well, I understand that, and all I can say, is I ask you to give us at this time as best you can --
Q -- your recollection.
A Okay. I would have had breakfast at home. Kimberly, the oldest girl, was up because she had to go to school.
Kristy usually slept later. And then I went to work -- went to the Sixth Special Forces, Group Surgeon -- Group Surgeon's office for the Sixth Special Forces Group.
And I did office work, mainly. I was second in command, I believe, at that time. And my title was preventive medicine, preventive medical officer, which the newspapers took to be -- you know -- counseling a lot of people on drug abuse when it was in fact keeping latrines clean.
I would -- my responsibilities were the health and welfare of the troops in regards to the quarters and the food, the water supply, and training reference those things with these Special Forces medics.
So, that's what I did.
I was -- I would presume that I was at my office most of the day.
There may have been -- I may have run over either on the way home for lunch or sometime during the day to see this sergeant on the boxing team. I don't really recall that. This was kind of suggested to me, and it seems like a reasonable possibility, because I had -- you know -- been doing that relatively routinely in the past -- prior couple of weeks.
I thought that I -- I went home for lunch. As a matter of fact, I think that is still what I think I did.
But apparently at some point I went downtown and picked up my contacts. In any case, I don't remember that.
So, I had lunch, and I went back to work. Really nothing stands out at all -- you know -- about that day; except I believe we played basketball for a short period of time starting around 4:30. There was a gym -- or the JFK Gym for Special Forces -- or I tried to get them to play either volleyball or basketball.
The guys were always out of shape, and they didn't like to run the mile or the number of laps, but they'd play competitively, so I think I got the whole office to go over and play basketball for a while that day.
Then, I believe -- I believe at this time I went home, picked up both of the children, Kimberly and Kristy, and went down to feed Trooper, the Shetland pony. This would be somewheres in the range of 4:30 or 5:00 o'clock, just because we usually played basketball from 4:00 to 4:45, about forty-five minutes of P.T.
We -- you know -- fed the pony, probably watered, and then came back and had dinner.
A We had dinner, I'm sure before six o'clock, because Colette had to go to a class at the University of North Carolina extension.
She had two full years of college, and wherever I went from then on, she was taking classes to try to finish her last two years.
And so we had dinner at home and Colette split for class.
So, I probably -- you know -- cleared off the table, normal procedure, and got the kids in their pajamas. And relatively soon Kristy would go to bed -- you know -- I'd put her to bed.
Kimberly stayed up with me. Sometime shortly thereafter dinner, I think I probably -- I was probably on the floor with Kimmy and had a nap. We were waiting for Laugh-In. We watched Laugh-In together. She liked the little guy who used to ride a bicycle and hit a telephone pole and fall over.
So -- you know -- she woke me up on the floor that night, and we sat up and watched Laugh-In. So when that was over about nine o'clock, I put her to bed.
So I was watching television, and Colette came home at 9:30, quarter to ten. She had some milk with her from the Mallonee Village Shopette, M-a-l-l-o-n-e-e, Village Shopette. It was a little PX type thing on the way home on the post.
And she, I believe changed into pajamas, and she came out and sat with me. And I have been asked this a lot, so -- you know -- these sound like prepared answers, and in a sense they are, because I've been asked this a lot.
So, I'm sorry for that sort of presentation type talk.
Q Well, please, just tell us your best recollect, now, and what you recall.
Q Everything that you can recall.
A Okay, I don't specifically recall having a drink with my wife, but that was the usual, almost nightly procedure.
So, six or eight weeks later or three months later when we started -- you know -- recalling all these things, I said, yeah, I had a drink with my wife. Usually in the Corps, some kind of sweet thing; either Kalura or Carosel, or something sweet. Creme de menthe sometimes.
And after Johnny Carson came on, she went to bed. I was still up. I was in the middle of a -- reading something; I believe it was a mystery at the time.
I read a lot of mysteries -- that I had started reading after -- after Kimmy -- you know -- went to bed. I had the T.V. on, and I was reading something or something like that. I usually leaf through something, or was reading while the T.V. was on. I didn't just sit and watch T.V.
I think Johnny Carson was a good show that night or something, and I watched it. There was somebody interesting on or something, so I watched most of that. And when that was over, I did the dishes and finished reading or something. There was something like twenty pages or something in whatever I was reading, and I finished it.
And sometime in here Kristy had started crying. So I went in and got her a bottle, which -- you know -- she didn't cry anymore.
This was -- you know -- the thing that CID thought that was so critical that Colette and I disagreed about.
So, I got a bottle and gave her a bottle, because we had not yet decided not to give her a bottle if she woke up in the middle of the night. That's all.
And then after I finished the dishes and finished reading this book, paperback style, I went in to go to bed.
And Kristy was in bed with my wife, and she had wet the bed -- you know -- on my half of the bed.
I don't know really, honestly if she -- you know -- or if she did not have a bottle. I presume if she did have a bottle there with her, I would keep it with her, and brought her to her own bed and put her in bed.
She was two and a half years old. She wasn't diapered. She had -- you know -- the bedwetting was a relatively infrequent thing -- you know -- she didn't wet her bed every night or every other night or even like that.
It was kind of an infrequent thing or a weekly thing by now, and she didn't wear diapers, and I didn't change her diapers. She had a -- you know -- wet thing, and she had her bottle and was going to sleep the rest of the night, so I just let her go to sleep.
So I pushed back the covers to let the bed dry where she had been and I got a blanket and went to sleep on the couch.
And the next -- you know -- there was some lights on in the house. There was a light on in the kitchen, and there was a light on in the main bathroom which was in the hallway which was -- you know -- between the two girls' rooms. And that light was left on, because infrequently Kristy would get up and go looking for her own bottle in the refrigerator. So we usually left one in the refrigerator.
So the next thing I remembered was I heard my wife screaming. And she said, "Help, Jeff." And at the same time I heard Kristy -- Kimberly -- I'm sorry --
It wasn't Kristy. It was Kimberly. She was screaming, "Daddy."
Colette said, "Help, Jeff. Why're they doing this to me?"
And it sounded very loud to me. It still sounds loud.
Kimberly said, "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, help."
And I started to sit up, and there was some people -- there was some people at the end of the couch the CID said was never in my house. And they couldn't find any evidence that people had been in my house. They couldn't find any evidence of fourteen investigators and three medics and the CID and MPs and doctors, and because they couldn't find evidence of these people, I'm guilty!
I saw people at the end of the couch. I saw three men. There was a black male to my left, and there were two white males at the foot of the couch.
And I started to say something to them. I don't know if I ever said it -- like it was -- you know -- in remembering it, I -- like it was almost like I was thinking -- you know -- "what the hell is going on?" "Why is my wife screaming?" and "why is Kimberly screaming?" And I don't know if I said -- you know -- what the hell are you doing here. But I remember thinking it -- thinking -- you know -- saying to myself, "what is going on?"
And I started to sit up. And the black male was to my left, and he raised something up and I just had an impression that he had a baseball bat, and at some time in here, either right now, or in this little struggle that ensued -- struggle ensued -- that doesn't even sound like me -- you know -- in what happened, I saw what I thought was a girl. I saw her between these other people, kind of behind them.
And I never said I saw hippies. I never said that. Colonel Kriwanek said I saw hippies. I said I saw people. I saw a person with long blonde hair and a floppy hat on, and there was a light on her.
And I never said I saw candles either. It was a light on her face, and I had the impression that there was something -- and I don't know if it was because it was kind of a -- you know -- wavering thing of an intermittent light or something, but I still think it was like candlelight -- you know -- it was an impression.
It was in the midst of a dark room and over a period of ten to twenty to thirty seconds, and I never really saw her.
I saw hair, I saw a face outline, and a hat, and that was it. That was all I saw, and while this was happening, Colette was screaming, and Kimberly was screaming, "Daddy" -- this guy hit me with something I thought was a baseball bat.
I sort of like put my arm up, and he hit me in the side of the head and he knocked me back down on the couch. And I started to get up again.
But sometime -- I really don't know whether it was before I was hit or after I was hit, I heard someone say -- the only vivid things I ever heard -- is my wife -- and Kim -- and something -- "acid is groovy, kill the pigs."
When I was trying to -- trying to go over this, it seems to me that I heard something else, but I wasn't clear what it was. It was something else that I heard.
I still think I heard something like, "acid and rain." But someone told me one time that -- they said, "it's raining outside," or something -- you know -- I don't recollect that. What I -- what I think that I heard -- it's really indistinct -- was "acid and rain," so now when I say it, it's black and white, and it's under oath, and if someone said, "acid is groovy" -- or someone said I said, "acid is groovy, kill the pigs," but I didn't say "acid and rain," that doesn't mean I'm lying. I'm not saying that.
I'm saying it was a very indistinct thing. I was listening to the screams and I was getting hit at the same time, and I was looking at these people who were in my house.
The CID can't even fingerprint a phone that an MP has used and get his fingerprints, and they tell me that have no evidence of these people, and that's why I'm here today. That's why.
It is the most preposterous -- they had no evidence that Ron Harrison was in my house, they had no evidence that Captain Probst was in my house, no evidence that my mother was in my house, no evidence that the Kassabs were there, no evidence my brother was there, no evidence that anyone I ever knew was in my house except me, so I'm guilty.
That's crazy. It's like something out of a bad T.V. show.
Anyway, someone -- I think that I punched someone, or hit someone. I told the FBI agent I thought it was an essentially ineffectual thing. It may have been like a scratch on the face.
I think it was the black male, so I presume it was with my left hand, but I don't know that.
At the same time these other two guys at the end of the couch -- I was now kind of sitting up. I don't know if I was leaning forward or leaning back or what, but I was trying to get up.
I presume I was trying to push myself off the couch, and at some time during this episode, my left leg was on the floor, so I was pushing with my left leg, and I was hit again.
And it's really confusing, Mr. Woerheide -- you know -- it's not -- when you write it down in sequence it sounds like it happened in order. This didn't happen in order. It happened all at once.
So, I was holding onto first what I thought was this guy's arm, and it was a fatigue jacket with E6 stripes. They were right in front of my eyes.
I was holding onto an arm -- the guy that was trying to hit me with the club. And it seemed to me that it was E6 -- you know -- I remember three up and one down, E6 stripes, you know.
And he was jerking his arm away or something, and my -- you know -- my hands kept sliding down his arm and then it was on the club.
And I -- you know -- I don't recollect what the club was. I thought -- my memory of what he was raising was that it was a baseball bat.
And right about now, I felt this pain in my right side, and I thought to myself that -- you know -- I have a recollection of saying to myself, Jesus, this guy really -- really threw a hell of a punch, because I got this pain, and I felt like I couldn't breathe for a minute. I presumed -- you know -- like I'd been punched in the diaphragm so to speak, and you know, got the wind knocked out of me.
And I couldn't breathe for a second, and I thought, Jesus, he really punched me.
And really the next clear thing, despite all the testimony and -- you know -- the way you have to make it in order -- the next clear thing I remember is my hands were in front of me, and I was pushing at these guys.
And I couldn't use my hands well, because my pajama top was all around my hands. And I've been asked fifty million times, how did the pajama top get around your hands? I don't remember that. It could have been pulled over my head as I was struggling and let go of the guy's arm. It could have been ripped around my back. I don't know that.
I just had -- it was around my arms all of a sudden, and then now I'm trying to get my arms out, and these guys are punching me. I don't know, but what I really remember -- you know -- was the one -- one -- one sharp pain, you know, as I recollect, but at the time I didn't think pain. I thought, Jesus, I can't breathe, for a second. That kind of a feeling.
And the next -- the -- I was hit -- I remember I kept thinking, Jes -- you know -- I'm -- you know -- sort of like, what's happening?, or I can't do anything.
And I was trying to push, and I couldn't get my arms out of my jacket. Like when you see in a hockey fight, when a guy pulls a shirt over the other hockey player -- you know -- I couldn't do anything.
And the next thing I remember, I was falling, and I saw a glimpse of a knee, and that's the extent of all these allegations made by Colonel Kriwanek in the newspaper about fringed boots and white boots and black boots and muddy boots.
What I saw was a glimpse of a knee in the top of what I thought was a boot -- and -- you know -- it seemed -- what I really remember, it seemed shiny.
So when they asked me was it wet?, I said, yeah, it seemed like it was wet or was vinyl leather or shiny leather, that kind of thing.
I never said to anyone that I know of that there were muddy boots or anything like that, and all these things get taken -- well, you'll get to that.
So, the next thing, I was lying on the floor. And I absolutely, distinctly remember I was lying there, and my teeth were chattering, and there was absolute silence, and I was laying on my -- sort of on my stomach, with my arms under me, wrapped up in this pajama top.
And I remember laying there, and then I remember thinking -- Jesus, I heard all these screams and it's silent, and I got up and walked down the hall to the bedroom.
So, I walked in the bedroom, and I -- I don't know if I turned the light on or not, but my wife was visible. I could see her -- clear as day.
She was laying on the floor with her feet towards me.
She was -- she was -- she was all covered with blood. There was -- there was -- a knife in her chest -- which I took out and threw away.
And I started giving her mouth to mouth -- mouth to mouth respiration, except the air was bubbling out of her chest.
At sometime I checked her pulse. I don't know if it was now or later, but I was checking her pulse. Checking to see if I could feel her heart beat. I couldn't. I couldn't feel a pulse.
And I remember I heard Kimmy screaming. So I went to Kimmy's room.
And all I had in my mind was there was blood everywhere.
All I can see was my wife and there was blood everywhere it seemed to me. It seemed it was everywhere.
I was trying to -- I thought what's -- I couldn't figure out what was going on.
So I went in the -- Kimberly -- she was lying in bed. She was -- she looked like she had a lot of blood on her, too. And I think I -- I think I checked her pulses. I don't know if I checked her pulses now or later, but I checked her pulses at some time.
And I went in Kristy's room. And Kristy looked bloody. And I was trying to think -- what the -- what -- you know -- what's -- and I gave Kristy mouth to mouth breathing. And her chest was bubbling over.
I couldn't figure out what to do.
So I went back -- I went back in the bedroom and I called the police -- or I dialed the operator. And I told her something like, this is Dr. MacDonald or Captain MacDonald, and help. And there are people dying. We've been stabbed. We need the police. We need the MPs. Something like that.
She said -- she said, is this on-post or off-post?
I said, what the hell do you mean, is it on-post or off-post? She said, if it's on-post it's a military matter.
I don't know if I said anything or not, but I dropped the phone. I couldn't figure out what the hell she was talking about.
So I checked Colette again -- sometime in here -- I had covered her with my pajama top that I think was still on my arms as I was coming in the rooms -- coming in -- and first -- you know -- as I was coming in the room the first time, I took it off and Colonel Rock was very interested in whether I dropped it or threw it.
Shit, I don't know if I dropped it or threw it. I think I threw it away. And then, I had picked it up again and I covered Colette with it, covered her chest.
So sometime in here I picked it up and looked at the wound again -- I guess to see if it really -- if I'd really seen what I'd seen.
And I put it back on her, and I remember trying to cover her. I think there was some clothes in the chair across from her, and I reached across -- I reached across Colette, and I was pulling things. I remember that.
I don't remember a white towel that the CID is so interested in. I don't know if I covered her with a white towel or not. I may have. I may not have. I was covering her. And I checked her pulses. And when I'd come back from the phone -- I -- I -- it seemed to me that the back door was open. And I said to myself, the back door is open.
And I walked over to the back door, and I looked out. And I didn't see anything. But I remember thinking all this time, how silent it was compared to how it had sounded.
So I -- I went back to Kimberly. And I think now that I gave her mouth to mouth breathing.
And it seemed to me that the air was coming out of her chest -- chest. So the CID said, ah-ha, she didn't have any wounds in her chest. She had wounds in her neck and chest area, the upper -- the lower neck and chest, and all I can remember is it was bubbling.
And I said, I can't -- I can't -- I can't ex -- I can't expand her.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Take your time.
A Excuse me. I'm sorry.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Mr. Foreman, are you going to break at 11:30?
FOREMAN: 12:30, you mean?
MR. WOERHEIDE: My watch has stopped, and I didn't realize it was so late. What time is it now?
FOREMAN: I have got about three minutes to twelve.
MR. WOERHEIDE: My clock says 11:25. You want to take a break now and resume after lunch?
DR. MacDONALD: I would prefer just finishing this segment if you don't mind. I mean -- you know -- I'm sure we'll be back over it.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right, you may finish this segment. You tell us when you want to break.
DR. MacDONALD: All right, thank you.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD.)
A So, I gave Kimberly mouth to mouth breathing, and the air was coming out -- you know -- I remember it as her chest. What I really remember is that it was bubbling. That's what I really remember. I don't specifically remember -- you know -- thinking to myself it was neck or chest. I remember that the air I was breathing into her mouth was now bubbling.
And so I went to check Kristy, and I don't think on the second visit that I gave her mouth to mouth breathing. I think I checked her pulses.
Sometime in here -- really silly -- it really sounds stupid -- one of the times that I was coming out of the kids' rooms, I reached up or something like that and I felt my head.
I remember I was thinking to myself, my head really hurts -- I reached up and when my hand came away it had some blood on it, and I thought to myself -- you know -- I wasn't even really -- you know -- making any sense to myself.
I guess my thought was that it was blood from me, and I went in the bathroom and looked in the mirror. The bathroom is right there. It's like one step. It's not like a long voyage. It's one step.
And I stepped in the bathroom, and I remember thinking to myself -- you know -- that I didn't see much. There was -- like a lump on my head, and there was some blood and there was blood all around my mouth.
And I -- you know -- I really can't put that in there. You know -- it's put in narratives. It's put into testimony.
So now -- you know -- if you really have to pin me down and force me to say so, I think that I went into the bathroom the first time that I came out of Kristy's room before I went in and saw Colette the second time. That is when I think I was in the bathroom.
If you knew how -- you know -- what do you say when you mean recollections? What I see is my wife and my kids, and I see bubbles coming out of their chests, and I remember them asking for help.
And then there's this dumb-ass operator, and I remember that I was talking on the kitchen phone, and I was saying this is Captain MacDonald. I need help. I'm at 544 Castle Drive. And she said, is this Captain MacDonald, and I said, you dumb idiot, I just told you that. Or something like that. I thought I was yelling at her. She testified it was very faint.
Seemed to me that I was yelling at her. And then there were some clicks -- you know -- there were clicks and buzzes and all kinds of sounds on the phone, and then there was a male voice, and he said, this is Sergeant something or other, and I don't remember what he said his name was. And he said, is this Captain MacDonald, and I said, yes, and he said, what's the matter? And I said, there're people who're dying here. I said, we need medics and MPs.
I didn't ask for the CID then, Mr. Woerheide. I said -- I said -- I heard -- I heard in the background, "tell Womack ASAP." ASAP -- ASAP is A-s-a-p, as soon as possible in the Army, and I think I heard this guy was saying what sounded like to someone else -- "make Womack ASAP." Or, "make that call to Womak ASAP," or something like that.
And I don't -- really don't remember anything else.
In the April 6 interview, there -- it's all -- they made all kinds of inferences at the Article 32 that said I remembered going back down the hallway to my wife.
What I recollect -- what I really recollect, is I remember the end of the phone conversation. That is what I recollect. And then I was -- what happened later on -- and when they say, what happened next?, I said, I say I remember going down the hallway, but I didn't mean I remember going down the hallway. I recollect that -- I meant that the last thing I recollect is the phone.
And the next specific recollection I have of that night is I was fighting with an MP. And he was saying, relax. And I was saying, relax?, shit, will you look at my wife? Jesus Christ, look at my wife.
I said -- I said, check my kids. Check their pulses, and he said, they are okay.
And he kept forcing me down. I was laying on Colette, and he kept forcing me down. And I couldn't breathe. I felt like I couldn't breathe, and I kept pushing him away. And he kept saying, you need mouth to mouth breathing, and he kept giving me mouth to mouth breathing, and I kept pushing him away.
And I said, Christ, will you let me up? And people were running by and shouting and screaming. They were yelling. I heard, Jesus Christ, he's a doctor, and I heard -- I said, where the fuck is Womack? And I heard, put that down. Don't touch her. Don't move her.
And I heard put that down. And, where the hell is Womack? And they were saying, who did it? Who did it? And people were running by me, and they were struggling with me, and pushing me, and I was looking up, and all I could see was MP helmets, shiny helmets, all around me it seemed like.
I don't know how many were there, but it seemed like there were fifty of them. My recollection is that people were running by, and they were knocking into the guy who was on my left shoulder, it seemed to me. And they kept knocking into him, and he kept lurching into me and falling on top of me.
And someone said to me, what happened?, and I said, we were stabbed. We were beaten.
There -- there were -- there were three men and a girl. It was a girl with a hat and a light on her face. I think it was a candle or something like that.
And I asked how were my kids, and they said, they're fine. And I said, Jesus Christ, will you look at my wife? There's something for us.
And the next thing I remember I was fighting with these MPs or medics, or whoever they were. And we were in the hallway, the hallway right between the two bedrooms. And I was on a stretcher, and they were strapping me down on a stretcher or something like that. And they were fighting with me, and I got off the stretcher. And as I got off and we were fighting, I fell into Kimberly's bedroom, and I hit the stereo that was right inside the doorway there. I landed against the stereo or something.
And they grabbed me and jerked me back up on the stretcher, and they were trying to tie me down with a strap or a sheet or something.
And they kept saying relax, everyone is okay. And then I remember I was in an ambulance, and people were -- you know -- they were all around me, and there seemed like there were a lot of people in the ambulance.
And I said, get my wife and kids to the hospital. And I said, I don't want to go to the hospital. Get them to the hospital.
And the next thing I remember, I was arguing with this nurse about my Social Security number. She kept asking me, said, what's your Social Security number? And I said, fuck you, I said, what do you care what my Social Security number is? I said, I want my wife and my kids. She said, they're all okay.
And I was sitting up or trying to get up on the stretcher. Somewhere in the hospital -- and I kept looking around, and I said, where are they? Bring them in.
And she said, they're all okay. And I said, what the hell do you want my Social Security number for?
And then I recognized this doctor that I had worked with one day over there, or had seen in the emergency room or something, Dr. Jacobson, and he started looking at me. And I asked him how my wife and kids were, and he said, everyone's fine.
And I think he asked me how I felt, and I -- I don't know what I answered. I really don't recollect at all what I answered to him.
I said I -- my head hurt, or it was hard to breathe -- or I don't know.
I remember at one point I told them something -- I told them -- we were getting an X-ray or someone was starting an IV or something, and I looked down at my chest, and the bandage that they had put on my chest had fallen off.
And I looked at my chest, and it was bubbling. And I said to him, hey Jake, or something like that, my chest is bubbling. And he said, yeah, I know. And that was it or something like that.
You know -- we can go on now -- it would be a good time for a break. You know -- if you're going to break, this is a reasonable time.
FOREMAN: All right, it's about nine minutes after twelve. We'll come back about 1:15.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right, sir.
FOREMAN: We have a quorum. Do you want to go ahead?
MR. WOERHEIDE: Yes, we have one missing, but it's twenty after. We'll go ahead.
FOREMAN: Here he is now. Everyone is present.
EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
Q Dr. MacDonald, according to my notes, where you were at the point in your narrative when we broke at noon where you were in the hospital, you saw Dr. Jacobson, a bandage previously placed on your chest had fallen off, you observed that your chest was bubbling. And that's it.
Now, will you proceed and tell us what happened thereafter; the treatment that you received, any observations that you made; anything that happened to you within the next several days.
Let's cover the time up to possibly your discharge from the hospital.
A Well -- excuse me -- the morning is really very, very jumbled in my mind, even now, in the hospital.
I remember being examined by Dr. Jacobson. I remember sometime after that being X-rayed.
I remember talking to a Dr. Bronstein, Merrill Bronstein, who was a captain or a major -- I don't remember which -- in the Army, who moonlighted at one of the same hospitals I moonlighted at.
And Captain -- I guess Captain Bronstein was the one who told me that my wife and kids weren't alive. Specifically, I remember saying to him -- you know -- something -- not specifically -- but what I remember saying to him was -- like -- you know -- what's happening? What's going on? And he said, haven't they told you? And I said, told me what? He said, they're all dead.
So I was crying, and he asked me is there anything he could do, and I said, yes, call my in-laws and call my mother, and ask them to come down to Fort Bragg.
He said he would. And he came back sometime in the future -- you know -- I mean in hours I'm talking about -- seemed like hours to me, and told me that in fact they were on their way.
I don't know if -- it was either then or the initial conversation with Captain Bronstein or later when he came back, we discussed whether or not -- whether or not he explained on the phone what happened, but the answer was that he had not discussed that.
So that they were essentially arriving just knowing that the family was at the hospital, I believe is how he told them.
Some people -- you know -- were in and out. I remember -- it seemed early in the morning that Colonel Kane was there, my commanding officer.
It seemed early that I saw Captain Hiestand, H-i-e-s-t-a-n-d, he was my -- actually he was my immediate commanding officer.
He was the only doctor in the Sixth Special Forces that I -- he was the group surgeon. I was next -- I was his assistant.
I remember seeing on one or two occasions -- actually I don't remember -- it was that morning -- but sometime that day, Captain Williams, Lieutenant Harrison came in that morning.
Nurses would be in and out to check my blood pressure, pulse and stuff.
Someone was asking me questions relative to the -- you know -- the assault -- what had happened in my house.
And I honestly don't remember any of the questions or any of the answers, or even who it was or how many.
But I remember them asking -- answering more official-type questions -- you know -- they were questions put to me. They weren't just, Gee, I'm sorry about what happened-type of thing.
I don't know -- in the narratives -- sort of when my chest tubes were put in -- you know -- I have since seen my medical records, and I could figure out from them. I don't really recollect when my chest tubes were put in. But it was sometime in the morning, I think, so that would break things up.
It would be -- you know -- the doctors would clear everyone out, and put in a chest tube, and then other people would come in.
A I remember that after the chest tube was inserted, it seemed to hurt more, not less, and Dr. Bronstein and Dr. Gemma told me that was expected, that type of pain with the chest tube.
It just -- I remember -- it was a Chaplain I was talking to there. It was a Chaplain that came in. I don't remember what Chaplain it was. I presume -- I don't recollect this, but I presume it would have been my Sixth Group Chaplain.
But someone came in and talked to me briefly, and I think I asked if they would -- you know -- if they would be back, and if they would help me -- you know -- when my family and in-laws came down.
When -- when my mother and the Kassabs arrived, that seemed late in the day. And they came in, and I remember kind of the look on their face was -- you know -- sort of like -- it was questioning, but they appeared like really stunned that I was in the hospital, and all this commotion that seemed to be going on, or that's the impression that I had.
And I said something like, do you know? And they said, what? And I said -- you know -- about Colette and Kim and Kris.
They said, no. And I told them that apparently they were dead.
And they said, how did it happen? And I said, I don't know. There were a whole bunch of people. So, I said, I really don't know what happened, something like that.
I said, there were people that -- there was sort -- I don't know if I gave them like a brief description or not. Whether it was like three men and a girl, or whether it was just people at that point.
I made small talk with them, and I fell asleep or something. And when I -- you know -- when I awakened, they weren't around anymore.
And then it was evening or night, and really the next day or two just seems like every four or five hours a nurse would come in and give me something. And then I would sleep some more, and I really don't have a good recollection of it.
The next day the -- there was a lot of people seemed to be coming in and out.
Colonel Kane was there, and I'm sure Captain Williams was there by now.
I don't know if it was the next day or later on in the week that some of -- some of Colette and my friends started coming.
There were some people that came down from the east coast and San Francisco and stuff. Dudley Warner from San Francisco came in, I think. And Dr. Robert McGann and Dr. Paul Manson came from Boston.
They were our best friends all through medical school. And they came to see me in the hospital.
I was interviewed two or three -- I guess -- well, I know, three times, by apparently Agent Caverly of the FBI.
But if you want my recollections, I don't recollect that it was Agent Caverly. I remember I was interviewed and asked questions, and someone was taking footprints at one time of my feet while I was in the hospital bed.
I believe I was fingerprinted. They scraped something from under my nails. They scraped all my nails and my toenails, I think.
The doctors would come in and out over the next several days.
And I just remember I was in a room in Womack Army Hospital, and Freddy Kassab sort of assumed sort of the head of the family type thing. He was going to make all the arrangements, and he came in and asked me if it was okay if they were buried on the Kassab -- not the Kassab, really, but the Stevenson -- which is Colette's real father's name -- plot, on Long Island.
And I said, no, that was fine. And he asked me did I agree with the funeral arrangements. And we talked about them and decided that they would have a ceremony here in the John F. Kennedy Special Forces Chapel. But then the bodies would be flown up and they'd be buried up there.
Sometime during this time, my mother or probably Freddy, wanted to know who was -- why was there a guard with a .45 outside my door. And I said I wasn't aware that there was a guard outside my door, or something like that. And then he went charging out, and he was haranguing everyone, and the answer was it was for my protection in case the same people made an attempt on my life in the hospital.
And I -- you know -- I didn't really care. I mean -- I didn't -- it didn't make any difference -- you know -- I wasn't -- this wasn't a big event. I'm just trying to recollect everything that I can.
I was in the hospital. And they made the arrangements for the funerals. And they held them off a day or two, or something, because Dr. Gemma told them, perhaps in a day or two, I believe, that my chest tubes could be taken out, and that if the lung didn't collapse, then I could go to the ceremony here. And that's what happened.
They took the chest tubes out, and I don't know if there was a small re-collapse or something. I don't know what happened. But here was some little delay; a delay or two, and they had to delay the ceremonies.
And finally they said that I could leave the hospital on a pass just to go to the funerals.
So we had the funerals that day at the J.F.K. Chapel. And then I went back in the hospital and was in my room for -- I don't know -- a week or two. And then I was discharged.
So I went back to the -- well, they had given me a room at the BOQ, at the officers' quarters, actually.
And so I went into this room. And I -- you know -- really couldn't figure out what to do, or what the next step was.
I believe at one time in here, right after I got out of the hospital, my mother and I drove over to the coast or something and stayed in a motel room for two days to get out of Fort Bragg before I -- you know -- started seeing all my friends again.
And I don't really remember when that was. It was somewhere in there.
Q Nothing notable happened? You resumed your normal way of life, and things went along without anything of particular note until April 6, is that right, which we've already covered?
A You mean over the next -- like in February, March and April?
A Ah --
Q There was nothing that particularly stands out I take it?
A Ah, no, I really -- I really -- I was -- you know -- I was back at work, but it was really kind of -- I got back into work kind of slowly.
And -- you know -- it was just -- yeah, nothing. I don't remember much about it at all. Don't remember anything.
Some calls -- you know -- to the CID -- some visits to the CID office, things like that, with reference to what was investigating here.
Q Right. Dr. MacDonald, I'm going to go back over with this -- this story again with you. And I will have a great many questions.
I want to state to you right now, that the purpose of making this very detailed review is not for the purpose of trying to confound you or confuse you, or to -- to cause you to deviate from the story that you have told us.
I just want to nail things down and make them precise, and exact.
You understand? This is not Perry Mason. It's Victor Woerheide. I intend to be thorough and try to get everything precisely fixed as best you can and as best that I can by questioning.
We have a floor plan of your house, and so the grand jury can understand these details, I'm going to try to bring that in. I will bring that in.
(A floor plan drawing with a clear plastic covering is brought into the room and attached to an easel.)
MR. WOERHEIDE: As a matter of fact, I have two floor plans here, one of which I had made recently from the first one. And I'll just show you the first one first, for purposes of -- but I'm using this -- this one was made from this one. In other words the new one was made from the old one. The only difference is the old one shows a location of beds, rugs on the floor, and various other articles of furniture, including the T.V. set, the hi-fi and the dining room table, the desk, et cetera.
Maybe if I turn it this way it will be more meaningful. Since this purports to be the living room, dining room, kitchen, Kristy's bedroom, Kimberly's bedroom, the master bedroom, the bathroom, the rear lavatory, and the utility room.
This one, as you will note, they left one piece of furniture in, and that is the sofa. And they left the rugs in the living room and in the dining room.
They left in the stove and the refrigerator. The sink is here, cabinet here. I think the washing machine is here, and they didn't leave that in.
They did leave in the bed, as I recall in the master bedroom, and I believe this is the rug, the dresser, but they did not include the bed in Kris's room or other furnishings, nor the bed in Kimberly's room or the other furnishings in that room.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) So, my first question is, do you recognize this plan as a representation of your quarters at Fort Bragg?
If you want to compare it with this one, I'll be glad to hand this to you.
A Yeah, that looks like the floor plan of our apartment.
Q All right.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Miss Reporter, will you mark the plan itself as MacDonald Exhibit Number 10 of this date? And mark the plastic covering over it as MacDonald Exhibit Number 11 of this date?
(MacDONALD EXHIBITS 10 AND 11, DATED AUGUST 15, 1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
FOREMAN: We'll call a five-minute recess and get a drink of water.
EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
Q Dr. MacDonald, I'm sorry for the interruption, but the jurors tell me that that plan set in the position it is now, they can see it.
Will you indicate to us where the front door is, please, sir?
A Using the pointer?
A This is the front door.
Q And in the living room, do you see the desk against the left wall?
A I presume you mean this?
A Okay, --
Q And do you see the outline of the rug? Is that correct?
A Approximately so, yes, sir.
Q Yeah, and you don't see the T.V., but that's to the right of the desk, I take it, as you face it, and --
A Up in here somewhere.
Q Right, and facing toward the far corner of the room, is it not?
A Facing diagonally, correct, I believe it was.
Q And do you see the sofa?
A Right, this is the sofa.
Q Yeah, and where was the coffee table?
A It was in front of the sofa.
Q And were there in addition two chairs in that room?
A Yeah, there was a chair here, facing diagonally to this corner, and there was a chair here facing the T.V., essentially.
Q Right, and that's the way people would sit in the chair just watching the T.V. program?
Q Sit either on that chair or on the sofa, I take it?
Q Do you see the dining room rug?
A It doesn't look to be in the right place.
Q Well, would you place it a little bit further to the back wall?
A Yeah, I'd put it -- I thought it was under the dining room table like here.
Q And the dining room table would be in the area that you're referring to now?
Q And you referred earlier in your testimony to a china cabinet and crystal and silver, and --
A Well, there were two cabinets in this room. There was a china cabinet on this wall --
A -- and there was a buffet, I believe, on this wall.
Q Right, now, in the kitchen, I see the place where there's the sink and a cabinet. That's on the west wall, is it not?
A Well, let's -- where is north, sir?
Q Well, north is top, south is bottom, east is to the right and west is to the left. So maybe if I said the left wall.
A Well --
Q The sink is opposite the entrance, is it not?
Q Well, you might indicate -- well, you've indicated the sink and where is the entrance?
A Right here.
(Witness is standing at Exhibit 10 and pointing out certain areas that he is being questioned about.)
Q And the stove was --
Q And the ice box?
A One of these two.
Q First is the stove?
A This is the --
Q First is the stove, and then the ice box, isn't that right?
A No, it was the other way.
Q Well, I have some pictures. We won't -- I mean it's of no significance to me right now at all. And the one item that isn't shown there, I think, is the -- is the washing machine and that's just to the left of the door, isn't it?
A Right, the rear door, right.
Q And would you indicate the rear door?
Q Right, now, let's go to Kimberly's bedroom. That's the south bedroom, isn't it?
A That's this room.
Q Now, was her bed at the west end of the room and in the middle, that is so you could walk around it on each side?
A Right, right here.
Q Right, and the hi-fi set, you said, was right next to the door?
A Right here.
Q And she had a few other pieces of furniture there for her toys?
A Bookcases and such.
Q And show us where Kristy's bedroom is, and where her bed was.
A This is her bedroom, and her bed was --
Q Against the west wall and the north wall, is that right?
A Right, right here.
Q And she, too, had a few pieces of furniture in there?
Q And will you show us where the bathroom is?
A The bathroom is right here.
Q Right, now, the master bedroom is at the east end, is it not?
A Yes, sir. This is the master bedroom.
Q And you see the rug there and the bed, and I think you see the dresser against the wall?
A This was my dresser.
Q That's your dresser?
A And this is Colette's dresser.
Q Right, and there was a chair in there, was there not, near Colette's dresser?
A Right, right about in here somewhere. This -- if this is the bed, I think it's way too far from it. It should be up in here, I think.
Q Yeah. Now, you can go into your bedroom either from the hallway or from the utility room, can you not?
A That's correct.
Q And is the back door at the -- straight through on the far side of the utility room? Just show us the back door.
A To the house?
Q That's the back door you usually used, isn't it?
Q There was another door out of the kitchen which you seldom used?
A Yeah, I'd say so. We used it last, but this was used during the daytime.
Q I see. And the utility room you had a dryer, did you not?
A Right, that was somewhere on this wall.
Q And do you remember a small file cabinet in which --
Q -- you kept some of your college notes?
A Right, right in the corner.
Q Was there anything against the other wall?
A There were bookcases, either this wall or this wall, maybe both, were bookcases.
Q Yeah, and then there's a little lavatory off the utility room, isn't there?
Q And that just has a wash basin and a toilet, maybe a shower or --
A I don't remember. It was a wash basin and toilet for sure.
Q Yeah, and a lavatory type thing, not a regular bathroom?
Q Do you see all the closets that were in those quarters? That is, there's a big closet in your bedroom, and Kimberly's room, and a somewhat smaller closet in Kris's bedroom. And then there was a closet between the hall and the bathroom, and little hallway that goes to the bathroom?
A Unh-hunh (yes).
Q And a closet that opens up into your room, just next to the lavatory there, is that right?
A This one?
Q Now, this -- we started off today with the talk about a magazine article. Where were the magazines kept in the living room there, where you and Ron were talking about, while you were sort of watching the T.V. that afternoon, Saturday afternoon, I think you said it was?
A The loose ones were kept, usually on the coffee table.
A There was another table -- I think -- in here, that had -- that usually had some things on it. Magazines, and there was a magazine rack somewhere.
I don't remember where it was. It was a floor magazine holder -- you know -- that you could stand magazines up in.
I believe it was in one of these two rooms. I'm not sure where.
But the magazines we were referring to were on the coffee table here right in front of the couch.
Q Right. Well, let's go back to the early evening of February 16.
You said you had an early dinner. Colette went to her class. The kids put on their nighties. Kris went to bed, and you and Kimberly stayed in the living room. T.V. was on.
You had sort of taken a nap. Do you recall that Kimberly was playing with some sort of a game or a game that comes in a box?
A I don't recall that. I've been told that enough times now that I know it. But I didn't recall that.
Q You don't recall it?
A (Shakes head negatively)
Q Do you recall one of the items they found was a sort of glue bottle? Do you remember whether she was sort of playing with paper dolls or something like that or something that required the use of glue?
A It's conceivable. They both did all the time.
Q Yeah, and while you were resting there and stretching out, and sort of taking a nap, were you on the floor or on the couch or were you napping in the chair, or --
A I was on the floor, I believe, because Kimmy was lying with me.
Q And then -- then that program was over and I think you said, you sent Kim off to bed. I don't remember. I'm sure that was before Colette came home, wasn't it?
A Right, it was after Laugh-In, about nine o'clock.
Q Yeah, and as I recall it, you said Colette didn't get home until about 9:30, 9:45, something like that?
Q So after Kim went off to bed, where -- where -- where were you seated or lounging or relaxing, if you can recall?
A Probably on the end of the couch, or in the rocking chair that was here.
A Because I think there was a light on this table, and it was the best light for reading.
Q Well, the T.V. was still on, and you wanted to be able to look at it if there was something of interest to you. And you also like to read?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q You were either on the chair or on the edge of the couch?
Q You don't specifically remember?
Q Now, when you say Colette arrived, she had been shopping. She had bought some milk. I take it she walked in the front door?
Q Went through the living room?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q Said hello to you, went in the kitchen, put the milk away?
Q And as you now recall, was it then she sat down and talked to you or did she go back to the bedroom and change and then come out?
A I think she -- you know -- just made some small talk about her -- I believe there was something about, you're missing the best part of a show or something, and she went down and changed and came back out.
Q That was referring to the T.V. show that was then being?
Q You mentioned Laugh-In. Do you recall what that show was?
A No, I mean I don't recall. It was like -- I think it was the Bob Hope or the Glen Campbell. It was a musical special.
Q I see. Yeah, I guess I think I remember in some of the material I read a long time ago, something about a Bob Hope special.
Q And while then she went back and changed and put on her nightie, is that it?
Q As you recall it now?
Q And came back to the living room, and you said you didn't specifically remember whether she got each of you a drink or not. She may have?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q Do you recall where she sat, and where you sat, and the general --
A Yeah, I believe we were just sitting on the couch watching T.V. together.
I don't know what was on from ten to eleven, but it was another special. It was something else. It was some reason. We normally don't -- like watch T.V.
You know what I mean. It's much more frequent that we'd be playing records or listening to music and reading and to sit and watch T.V., when I tried to recollect this later, there was some special on T.V. that night.
There was a series of hour shows, musical variety shows or something.
One was Glen Campbell, and one was Bob Hope or something to that effect. But we watched that from the couch.
Q Yeah, and you chatted?
Q Do you remember anything that you talked about?
A No, not specifically. Not except stuff that's been suggested to me.
Q Well, did anyone suggest anything to you that helped to refresh your recollection?
A Yeah, they suggested that perhaps we were talking about bedwetting problems.
Q Well, that having been suggested to you, did it refresh your recollection?
A My recollection is that that is possible -- you know -- it was a thing that a husband and wife with two kids often talk about.
A She may have -- it may have been at this -- we had a reference -- you know -- somewhere in the -- in this time frame, not daily, but somewhere in these weeks -- at one time she had come home from class and mentioned that she had brought up the bedwetting thing with her professor.
And it may have been this night. I don't definitely know that, but if you try to piece it together two or three months later, that could have been the night that we talked like that.
Q Well, I think that other ladies who attended this same class have verified that that was the topic that Colette discussed on that particular evening.
Q And so it does appear to be likely. I'm not -- that is something that you had talked about?
Q And I take it if there was such a discussion it was calm, it was not heated, there was no -- nobody getting upset?
Q Or tense?
A Absolutely not.
Q Or anxious or disturbed?
A (Shakes head negatively)
Q Or --
A There was nothing abnormal that evening at all.
Q Now, you said that -- you have said, as I recall, in the past and I, too, may be getting some of the things mixed up that I have read, mixed up with what I heard you say earlier today that -- I refer to my notes, now. You did refer to the Johnny Carson show. That did come on?
Q And Colette was there?
Q For a part of it?
Q And then you said she retired?
A That's right.
Q Do you recall whether she took any pill or medication before she retired?
A There's a pill that I know she took, was the Bendectin pill for nausea.
Q Where would that have been kept?
A I don't know. Could have been in a dresser, back on here, or it cold have been in the medicine cabinet in this bathroom, in the hallway closet here, or in the little bathroom. This is very likely.
(Witness points to floor plan.)
Q Because I would suspect the kids would be there the least.
Q Now, I guess I should go back a little bit earlier. When did you put on your pajamas that night? You yourself?
A I think I put them on when I -- when we got home -- when we got home from feeding the horse.
Q Did you have them on when you ate dinner?
A I think I did. The reason I do, when I got home I took a shower. I wasn't -- you know -- planning to go any place that night, and Colette was gone to class, and I was babysitting, so I just put my pajamas on.
Q Did you have a robe that you put on over your pajamas?
A Yeah, but I usually didn't wear it. Colette usually used the robe.
Q Did you put on slippers?
A I don't remember.
Q You don't remember padding around the house that evening with slippers on?
Q But what was your normal practice?
A Oh, if I put them on for a short time, I usually kicked them off whenever I was reading or something, and then I was barefoot the rest of the time.
Q Now, when you put your pajamas on, I take it they weren't -- you know -- new pajamas. You hadn't just gone out and bought a pair of pajamas?
Q They were pajamas you had had them for some time, and they had been washed?
A Yeah, probably eight or nine years.
Q So they had quite a bit of mileage on them?
Q Were they intact or falling apart? Was there anything wrong with them?
A I don't know. It was conceivable, in fact it was very likely the crotch ws ripped in the seat of the pants. They were old -- you know -- they were sort of frayed type pajamas.
Q Well, do you recall that the crotch was torn?
A Well, only under the same type of questioning that -- you know -- you're undergoing with me now, like my lawyers would do with me, and they'd say, were they new or old?, and I'd say, ah -- and they'd say, well, did you have them back in college?, and I'd say, yes, and they're old.
And then they'd say, were they ripped?, and I'd say, yeah, it's conceivable -- you know -- that my pajamas were old and in a state of disrepair, because I didn't have any new ones.
Q Well, I'm curious to know to what extent, if there was a rip or tear in the crotch, and you haven't definitely said that it was, although you brought up the subject that there may have been a rip in the crotch.
If there was a rip in the crotch, was that a rip in the material or was it a thread in the seam shot, and the seam opened up a little bit?
A I don't know, sir. It wouldn't be a real, gigantic rip. It would be a -- you know --
Q Well, now --
A -- a small tear in the crotch.
Q Well, if I get a rip in the seam of my pajamas and pants once in a while, and there is a thread seam on the inside of the leg, called an inseam, and when the thread goes, it opens up and there's this little gap. Is that what you're referring to?
A No, no, I had two similar pairs of pajamas. I had a green pair and a blue pair. One -- one of the two, I know was ripped. You know, there was a significant four or five inch rip in it.
And the other one, there was a tear -- I don't know whether it was a seam tear or a cloth tear. But I honestly don't know which pair was which.
Q And all evening long you sat around the house, and to the extent you moved around the house, you moved around the house wearing your pajamas?
Q When Kris and Kim went to bed, what was their practice? Did they just say, good night, Daddy, and --
A No, I put them to bed. I put them to bed.
Q Sort of tuck them in?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q And for Kris that was about 7:00, and for Kim it was around nine o'clock?
Q Now, after the Johnny Carson show was over, was it then you said something about doing something with the dishes?
A Yes, I believe I washed the dishes.
Q Was that your regular chore, or was that just something you did occasionally when you were in the mood?
A No, it wasn't my regular chore. I did it occasionally. Colette liked to wake up and find them done. It was a surprise usually.
Q You said something about playing the FM?
Q Were you playing it on an FM station, or were you just playing a record?
A I don't recollect. In the questioning -- you know -- in the multiple questionings I have had since, it seems to me it was probably FM, because I think I remembered getting up.
The FM we had gotten had a -- has one of those AFC buttons, where you push the button and it locks the station in.
And I think I remember getting up a couple of times and wondering why the -- it wasn't working because the station was drifting out. So I think it was FM.
Q What time does Johnny Carson go off the air in this part of the country, about one o'clock, or --
A Yeah, I believe so.
Q And -- and you were reading a book, and sort of halfway listening to Johnny Carson and had washed the dishes, and where were you? Where did you repose yourself?
A On the couch, here.
(Witness points to floor plan.)
Q Now, you were lying down or sitting up?
A You mean to read?
A Actually I was probably still sitting up to read.
Q That would be in the corner near the light?
Q Now, you said something about Kris starting to cry a little bit, and will you --
Q -- and having fixed her a bottle. Can you in any way fix the time of that with reference to the Johnny Carson show and when you finally turned off the FM to go to bed?
A I don't know if it was during the Johnny Carson show, or -- you know -- whether it was after the Johnny Carson show was off and the FM was on, but I remember Kristy started crying, so I -- you know -- went to her room quickly so she wouldn't wake Colette with the crying, and got her a bottle.
I don't know. It was somewheres between twelve and two.
Q Where did you take it to?
A Where did I take what to?
Q The bottle.
A To Kristy.
Q Well, where was she? She was in her bed then, wasn't she?
Q And while she was crying, so she must have been awake. What did you do, just stick the nipple in her mouth and leave it there?
A I don't remember if I just gave her the bottle; or she may have said, "I don't want to sleep alone." That's what we were going through right then.
She wanted to go in with Kim or with us, and I honestly don't remember whether I left the bottle with her or put her in with Colette at that point.
Q You can't be any more definite than that?
A You mean recollections or looking at other interviews?
Q Well, sometime -- no -- I'm asking you to recall, and I'm putting it to you in such a way as to try to not influence your judgment, but to offer you the possibility so that it might assist you in recalling if --
A Okay, most --
Q Either you gave her the bottle in her bed --
Q -- and then she on her own, she got up and went into the master bedroom, and when she went you undoubtedly heard something; you heard her moving?
A I don't understand what you mean by undoubtedly.
Q Well, I will withdraw that and leave it up to you as to whether you heard her or not.
Maybe she was barefoot and you did not hear her, you know how sounds carried in that house better than any other person, --
Q -- and you tell us whether you could have heard her or not have heard her?
A If Kristy went into the master bedroom?
A I'm sure she could get in there without me hearing her.
Q I see.
A It's happened. It's happened many times.
Q Yeah, assuming you were awake and hadn't already fallen asleep, --
A Or washing dishes with the stereo on, --
A -- or something. Gee, I'm sure she could get into the master bedroom without me hearing her.
Q And you cannot recall right now whether you took the bottle into her room and left it there, or just took her to the master bedroom. But it was one way or the other?
A Okay, my clearest recollection is that I didn't move her -- you know -- but I have seen interviews where I said that I moved her.
Q Well, --
A Now, you know, that that -- that could have happened. But my recollection when I started writing things down, and recollecting and -- you know, like when the CID started asking me questions on April 6, I believe my recollection was that -- you know -- I didn't remember putting her with Colette myself, but that may have happened. But I don't remember that.
Q All right, --
A You -- you know, usually I would just get her a bottle. When I got her a bottle, sometimes we'd have this little thing about her not wanting to sleep alone, you know, and I -- you know -- you know -- in the middle of the night you're tired, and who cares? You put her in the bed with Colette.
Q Will you indicate to the grand jury the side of the bed that Colette slept on and the side of the bed that you slept on, and where Kristen was sleeping with Colette on this particular night?
A First of all, I really think that the room is out of proportion or something, sir, the room as I remember it is either smaller, or this bed is much closer to the middle of the room.
Q Let's say the bed is undersize, --
Q -- but use the bed that is drawn here for the purpose.
A Okay, we slept interchangably, but often and on this particular night, Colette was sleeping on this side.
(Witness points to floor plan.)
Q That is the north side and when you face the head of the bed from the footboard, it would be on the left side?
A Right, correct. And Kristy was in bed on the right side as you face the head from the foot of the bed.
Q Right, tell me, does Colette -- everyone has their own sleeping habits. Does she usually sleep on her left side or her right side?
A I don't know, that --
Q Or does she just sleep flat on her back?
A I don't think I can make -- you know -- a -- usually it depends upon which side I was sleeping. She usually slept in my arm.
Q Do you recall this evening, when you went back to go to bed yourself, whether she was sleeping on her left side or her right side?
A I would say that she was sleeping on her right side. I think she was sleeping on her right side.
Q So she had her back to Kris?
Q And Kris was probably sort of snuggled up to her a little bit?
A Yeah, well, Kris was really active. She was -- she kicked and kicked the covers off, and if she got between us, she kicked both of you out of the way.
When I came back in the bedroom, Kristy was on her back -- you know --
Q Now, when you -- when Colette had gone to bed, what lights then were left burning in the house? You had a reading light that you were using. Were there any other lights on?
A When Colette went to bed?
A I'm sure the bathroom light was on.
Q Was that always left on at night?
A Usually, yeah.
Q Of course, all the lights in the bedrooms were off?
Q And you had a light in the living room to read by?
A Right. I don't remember if there was a standing light over here or not.
I think there may have been a standing light over here that was on, also, until I went to sleep and there was a light on in the kitchen.
Q Were the blinds drawn?
A I presume so.
Q What was the temperature that you maintained in that house?
A Well, we usually tried -- we usually had the heat off, because it got too hot.
Q What's too hot for your taste?
A Well, for my taste, 72 is too hot.
Q Not for Colette?
A No, that would probably be just be about right for her.
Q So it's somewhere around 72, maybe, 75 degrees?
A No, well, I don't know what it was, but it usually seemed too warm. Whenever the heat went on, the house got too hot.
Q Yeah, that being the case, you didn't have to really use heavy bed covers in the house, did you?
A No. I didn't.
Q Yeah, one blanket might be enough?
Q Now, when you -- well, between the time you went to dinner, and the time you decided to go to bed, did you brush your teeth?
A I'm sure I did.
Q When do you -- when did you do that?
A I don't know. I'm a fanatic about brushing my teeth. I may have done it right after dinner and again before bed.
Q Well, is it your habit -- invariably it's my habit to do so, to brush your teeth just before going to bed?
Q Now, where would you perform that function?
A Well, either of the two bathrooms. Usually, my toothbrush was kept in this one back here.
(Witness points to floor plan.)
A But sometimes the kids would be fooling with things, and bring them out of there and it would be in the other one.
Q So probably just before you went to bed, you may have gone to both of these bathrooms to the first one looking for your toothbrush, and the second one to find it and brush your teeth?
A That's possible, right, but I'm sure I brushed my teeth.
Q At that time when you went back to brush your teeth, did you notice anything unusual in any respect?
Q About that house, or any part of the house?
Q There was nothing that attracted your attention or your concern?
Q I guess Colette carried keys to the house, didn't she?
A I don't know. We never locked it -- you know -- we never -- she must have.
Q Well, didn't she have a -- most people do -- a key holder that has the car keys and the house keys?
A Yeah, she must have. That's why I said, she must have.
Q So when she was off at school, was the front door locked?
A Oh, I doubt it.
Q Well, did she lock it when she came in the house?
A She may have, coming in for the evening. She may have when she came in the door, turned around and locked it, sure.
Q Well, if there is any question about the front door being locked or unlocked, wouldn't you normally check the door before going to bed?
Q Did you check it on this night?
A No, that's why, no. No, I don't specifically remember that -- you know -- I may have sometime when I was in the living room reading or something, got up and checked, but I don't remember checking it.
I think as a matter of fact Colette locked it when she came in. I think she did.
Q All right, now, you kept the back door and the kitchen area locked, didn't you, pretty much?
A Yeah, I guess, usually. I mean locking doors was not a big deal with us. We weren't very cautious about it at all.
My mother -- you know -- my mother and father never locked the doors, never, ever. In the twenty years we lived there, we never had a locked door.
Q So you didn't have a feeling of insecurity and accordingly it wasn't a big deal?
Q Now what's your recollection about the back door to the kitchen, was it locked?
A I don't remember that.
Q How about the back door by the utility room?
A I don't remember that.
Q Do you remember whether or not you checked it when you were brushing your teeth?
A Probably looked at it to see that it was closed.
Q Did it have on it a lock that -- where you could visibly tell whether it was locked or unlocked, by whether a button in the center of the lock was in or out?
A I have no idea. I don't remember.
Q You know the type of lock I'm referring to?
A Where when you twist the --
Q Yeah, there's a little thing and in one position it's locked, and you don't have to try it. And another position it's unlocked?
A Let's see. Let me think for a second. One of the doors had one of those things, because -- yeah, one of those doors -- one of these two doors had one of those things -- a twist thing, I think, because the bolt went through the other three loops. I just don't remember on that door, whether I checked it and what kind of lock was on it.
Q Well, you couldn't go into that lavatory without virtually touching the door, could you? I mean without your body being within a foot or two of it?
A You mean the outside door?
Q Yeah, I'm talking about the rear lavatory.
Q I see the door there swings towards the --
A Yeah, but if the door isn't open, then I wouldn't touch it certainly to go into this door unless I'm pretty clumsy.
Q Right, but if that door is closed?
Q And I presume it was closed?
Q You were close enough so you could readily see if it had that type of lock, whether it was locked or not?
Q But you don't have -- excepting the fact that the door was closed you don't have any specific recollection?
Q Concerning the door being either locked or unlocked?
A No, I do not.
Q Is there any way of fixing the time when you decided to go to bed and brushed your teeth, and went into the master bedroom?
A No. I don't recall any way at all. I mean -- you know -- just, it was after -- it was not too long a period of time after Johnny Carson was off, and I read ten or twenty, or twenty or thirty pages in a paperback, and did the dishes, so the time was probably forty-five minutes. Forty-five minutes to an hour.
Q So that would place the time about somewhere between 1:45 and 2:00 o'clock in the morning, is that right?
Q And that evening while you were spending a very quiet evening at home, and you had been awake for several hours while everybody else was in bed, did you hear any unusual noises?
Q Didn't hear kids racing motorcycles around the neighborhood or --
Q I guess that you heard the usual traffic of somebody coming home late, a very occasional car driving down the street?
A Well, I'll say probably. But I don't recollect thinking that night that I heard anything, no.
Q Yeah, was sort of rainy that night?
Q Did -- was Colette carrying an umbrella, or did she wear a raincoat as she went in and out?
A I doubt it. I don't think she ever -- no, I don't think so.
Q She just run from the door to the car, and from the car back to the door?
Q Did she -- did you keep your outer garments in that closet in the corner of the living room?
Q So did she come in and take her coat and hang it there and then go to the kitchen, is that it?
A Ah, she probably just walked in the kitchen, put the milk in the refrigerator and came back and hung her coat up.
Q All right, now, about two o'clock, I take it, you were back in the bedroom, and just tell us what did you do?
A I picked --
Q Did you turn the light on? That would have awakened Colette.
A Did I turn the light what, sir?
Q Did you turn the light on?
Q That would have awakened Colette?
A Sure, you know -- you could see -- you can see with the bathroom light on. It reflects down the hallway.
Q So you didn't turn on the light?
Q You pulled back the covers and there was Kris?
A I don't know if I even pulled back the covers. She usually kicks them off. I don't know if I pulled back the covers. I think she was uncovered and there was -- there was -- you know -- she had wet the bed. So I picked her up and put her back in her own bed.
Q And that meant walking a few steps down the hall and into her bedroom and then you came -- and then -- well, that was that.
How did you leave this wet spot that was in the bed where Colette was sleeping? Did you cover that up?
A No, I believe I pushed the bed covers away from it.
Q Now, you said you picked up a blanket. I believe you said you picked up a blanket?
Q Where did you pick that up?
A I can only tell you where they usually were. I don't remember where. I don't remember picking it up. It was probably on the end of Kristy's bed.
Q Can you describe the blanket?
A If it was -- well, it was a wide-weave afghan. It was an afghan with sort of holes in it.
Q And then you proceeded back to the living room?
Q And you lay down on the -- you call it a sofa or a couch or what term?
A Either one. Couch. Sofa.
Q And what are we using for a pillow?
A I don't remember. I sleep flat a lot because I have a back injury, but -- so I probably, if I used a pillow, I used one of the small ones on the -- sort of decorative pillows.
Q You had several decorative pillows in the living room, didn't you?
Q On the couch and on the chair, and so on and so forth?
Q Do you remember how you laid down?
A How I laid down?
Q Yeah, well, what was your position of your body --
A Oh, oh, oh.
Q -- as you were lying there, where your head was, and where your feet were, and whether you were flat on your back or whether you were on your side. I'd like to know whether you removed the cushions.
A The cushions from the couch?
A No, I was here on my back. I always sleep on my back and -- you know -- my head was here and my feet were there. My head was towards the front of the house.
Q Right, and did you fall asleep rather promptly?
A I suppose so. That's what I usuallly did, right.
Q You were relaxed, you weren't tense?
Q Weren't spending a sleepless, restless night?
A Absolutely not.
Q And you fell quickly to sleep?
Q Now, is there -- do you have any way of judging the passage of time when you were asleep, being a doctor and being subject to call, when serving in medical rooms, you must have the -- have had the experience from time to time during your internship and during your work at the Cape Fear Valley Hospital and Hamlet Hospital or Hamlin Hospital, of going to sleep and then being awakened.
Now, do you have any way of judging the lapse of time?
A No, sir.
Q Now, you say you were awakened by a loud scream and heard the voice of Colette and Kimberly?
A That's right. It seemed loud to me. They have gotten all the neighbors within half a mile to testify they didn't hear the scream. It seemed loud to me.
Q Prior to that scream, were you -- was your sleep disturbed in any way by any noise, any banging or thudding, or anything of that sort?
A No, sir.
Q You were sleeping a normal sleep continuously from the time you fell asleep until the moment when you heard Colette screaming and Kimberly screaming?
Q And you said you began to rise on your elbows? As I recall?
A Well, I began to get up, right.
Q And immediately, immediately you saw four persons?
A No, immediately I saw three people.
Q And how soon after that first moment when you glimpsed three people did you see the fourth?
A I don't know where -- it was before I had -- before I felt -- you know -- like sort of the blow to my chest that I thought I was being punched. I would say it was a matter of seconds. When you go back and think how long the fight must have been, but it was -- it was relatively soon -- you know -- it was fairly quickly after I saw the three, then I noticed the fourth.
Q I'm going to ask you to take the black marking pencil in front of you, and I'm going to ask you to mark the approximate location of the coffee table, where it was when you went to bed, and if you can recall the -- the -- the chair that was kept in a position so it angled towards the T.V. set for people who would watch the T.V. set from that chair?
A You want the coffee table and the chair?
Q And the chair. And just label the coffee table -- just label that "table," if you can.
And label the chair, "chair."
(Witness draws and writes on floor plan.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Now, let me ask you -- let's go back for an instant, you were reading that night. Were you using your new contact lenses or were you reading with your glasses?
A Reading with my glasses.
Q And when it came time to turn off the light and go to sleep, where did you leave your glasses?
A I don't know, sir, it would either have been on the end table or on the coffee table, one of the two places.
Q Now, I'm going to ask you to indicate -- I wish I had another color marker here --
A I have two others up here.
Q I know, but I want to use those for another purpose. I wish I had a green one, but I don't. So, let's use -- let's use the blue one. Will you indicate where the first three individuals that you saw were standing and where the fourth individual that you saw just a few seconds later was standing, as you recall?
(Witness writes on floor plan.)
A There was one individual here.
Q And if that doesn't work very well, let's try this.
MR. WOERHEIDE: These are all black and red markers -- well, let's interrupt this for a minute.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Let's use purple for the people. We have, what, a black, green, red, blue and what?
MR. STROUD: Purple.
DR. MacDONALD: Mr. Woerheide, the green will work.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Does it show up enough?
DR. MacDONALD: Yes, appears to.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) All right, let's use the green to indicate where the people were.
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q You can see the steps there?
A These are the steps, right.
Q All right, sir, I take it the point that's indicated nearest to the coffee table, is the point where the person is that you described as being black and carrying a club?
A That's correct.
Q And the two points closest to the foot of the couch are the two white males, and the point behind them is the female, is that correct?
Q Now, did the black male move from the position where he was during this struggle with you?
A Yeah, he sort of -- he seemed to move just down between the coffee table and the couch, right here.
Q All right, while using that green thing, will you draw a line, starting at the edge of the circle, that denotes his position, and make another circle showing the position that he came to?
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q Okay, now I take it from the -- your description of the incident, the two Caucasian males stayed the approximate place where they were?
A Right. Seemed to.
Q Now, as you were struggling to get up, how far up did you get? Did you obtain a full-seated posture before you were knocked back?
A You mean the first time?
A I don't think I was completely up. I don't -- no, I was coming up, and I was thinking, what's going on here?, and I saw -- you know -- this is just really a step here, that's all.
Q Well, to get your -- to get to a seating posture, you'd have to sort of raise yourself on your elbows and forearms?
A Unless you do a lot of sit-ups.
Q I see. That leads me to the next question. I know you are a very well trained person. You engage in athletics and sports. You can -- you're capable of sitting up without helping yourself, is that the way -- is that it?
A Well, sure.
Q Okay, now, as you were sleeping there, you weren't bound by your pajamas in any way, were you? I mean were --
A Right, seemed to be in normal attire.
Q Yeah, now you were knocked down and you struggled up again and you put your left foot to the left side of the couch, is that it?
A Ah, it seemed to me at one point that my left foot was on the floor here, that's correct, between the couch and where the coffee table would be.
Q Now, when you were struggling to get up, if you recall, what happened to the cover, the afghan?
A I don't remember.
Q That would normally fall down over your legs, --
Q -- and the lower part of your body, would it not?
A That's right.
Q But do you have any recollection, now, of what happened to the afghan while you were struggling to get up?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q Now, you say he swung the club at you while you were not -- you were not quite in a sitting -- sitting in an upright position, that you fended the blow off with your arm and he struck you on the side of the head.
Now, will you -- will you indicate which arm you fended the blow off with, and approximately how he struck you?
A Well, my left arm was the arm that I used.
Q In your own words, you were lifting up your left arm?
Q And the blow -- where did it strike you on the left arm?
A It's hard to imagine how, but it seemed to hit me in the left shoulder, actually.
Q As you were raising up your arm you also raised up your shoulder --
Q -- very possibly?
Q And were you ducking your head or --
A I believe I was moving backwards. I believe I was moving back and putting my arm up.
Q To evade the shock of the blow, is that it?
Q Which you could see coming. Now, you're an experienced boxer, is that something you would do instinctively?
A I should think anyone would do that instinctively. It's not a matter of whether I am a boxer or not, someone started to club your head, I'm sure you would move away.
Q Where did the club actually strike you, on the head?
A On the side -- on the left -- seemed to, on the left side of the head.
Q That is this side? (Indicating)
A The left side of the head.
Q This is my left side. Well, would you indicate where you mean on the left side of your head, where the blow struck you?
A At that time, I don't know. I mean, I wasn't really aware. I can tell you where the bruises were later in the hospital, but -- you know -- I didn't think, gee, he hit me in the left occipital area, or whatever. It seems I was hit in the left side of the head and the left shoulder.
Q Yeah, you were knocked down and you struggled to rise again, and in this process you grabbed his arm?
Q Was he swinging with his left arm or right arm?
A I don't know. I think it was both arms. I don't remember. That's why I don't really understand why I had his one arm. The first swing seemed to be with his -- both arms. That's what it looked like to me.
I ended up holding onto his arm which I presume --
Q (Interposing) Now, the arm you were holding on to -- I think you said on the sleeve there was certain insignia.
Q Are they on the left arm or the right arm?
A I don't know.
Q Well, you have been in the military, and you know which side the insignia are worn on?
A I was a medical officer. I don't remember. I don't remember.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Does any member of the grand jury know where a sergeant's stripes would be? Are they on one side or the other or both sides?
JUROR: Both sides in the Army and Air Force. In the Navy, it's just the right.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) So it could be either the right arm or the left arm so far as the location of the insignia are concerned?
Q And you don't recall whether you had his right arm or his left arm?
A Yes, it seemed to me I had his left arm, and the reason it seemed that way, while I was holding onto his arm, his whole body was in my face, and in recollection when you try to rebuild it, it seems I must have been holding his left arm for his whole body to be there.
Q So you were in physical contact with his body now, at least the clothing he was wearing?
A Well, I had a hold of his arm, right.
Q Well, can you give us any sense sensation regarding the clothing?
A A sense?
A You mean as far as material?
A The only impression I have was that it was an Army field jacket -- you know -- but, no, I don't specifically recall a sense sensation.
Q Well, was it wet or dry?
A I don't recall.
Q You don't have a recollection of that?
A No, not really.
Q You remember when Colette came in whether -- she just had a few feet to go from the curb to the --
A Unh-hunh (yes).
Q -- house. Was her clothing very wet or was it dry?
A I don't remember.
All right, let's see. Wait a minute. There was a shower and she ran in. Wait a minute now. She either ran to the car in a shower leaving at six o'clock or she ran from the car in a shower.
I believe that's right. One of the two times -- hmmm -- I don't know which one, sir, but it seemed to me, that's right. She ran one of the two ways, and there was a shower. Yeah, there was a brief shower at that time.
Q All right, now, how about the man who was in contact with you?
I'm asking you these other questions to place the thing in context.
Q Now, do you recall a feeling of dampness or -- on his clothing or was his clothing dry?
A I --
Q Is there anything about it you can recall other than the fact it seemed to be an Army field jacket of some sort?
A No, not really.
Q Now, can you give us as best you can at this time, a physical description of each of these three individuals? I guess your best look at them was at the beginning of the struggle rather than --
A (Interposing) Rather than at the end, right.
Q -- further on in the struggle?
A The Negro male -- first of all let me say that I for a long time -- you know -- really even denied that I could give a real good description. No one ever asked me for a description until about August, six or seven months later, and I might -- the way I'm going to give you -- let me explain why I'm giving you a reasonably detailed description now. It's because my attorneys told me you get a police artist and you put together a composite, and I told them, I couldn't do that. I couldn't recognize -- I didn't even have enough remembrances to even give a good idea about the facial features and stuff, and we went 'round and 'round on this for a period of weeks if not months.
And finally I -- they got -- you know -- they sort of made me agree to at least talk to the police artist and see if I could come up with something.
He was a police artist from Philadelphia, something like that. So we met together, and he'd like have fifteen or twenty of everything, and he takes an outline and he puts a hairline down, and said all right, starting with the black male, is this the hairline? And you look at it and say, not really. And he put another one down until you say, well, -- you know -- well, yeah, that's vaguely what I was seeing.
And he does it with the nose and ears and chin and lips and everything until you finally have a person and then you say, you know, that looks reasonably like -- you know -- a person.
Q The man you saw?
A The -- yeah, the man you saw, five or six months ago, for ten or twenty seconds.
So, that's what happened.
As far as the physical measurements of them, all I can really say is that they weren't outstanding. The major was the difference -- the white male -- the guy in the middle was shorter and the other people seemed normal size.
So I would say the two males and the black male and the male nearest the hallway was at least 5', 10" or 11" or six feet, and the other person was a couple of inches shorter.
The person that was behind, that was the shortest glimpse and really -- that is the facial mock-up that I ended up making, would be risky at best. I must say in honesty, really it was a big hat and I saw some blonde hair, and I thought I saw a glimpse of a face and it seemed to be -- you know -- I have always had the impression it was a girl, and that she was obviously shorter than the other people, say 5', 4" or 5', 5".
Q You said you heard a voice saying something. Was that a masculine or feminine voice?
A That seemed to be a feminine voice.
Q You wouldn't be mistaken whether it was a girl or boy by the tone of what you heard?
A I'm sure that can happen -- you know -- but -- you know -- I would say it was a feminine voice.
Q All right, sir, you haven't given us really very much detail so far as the description is concerned. You said you made up a drawing, and you recognize this as it?
Q The drawing you had made up?
A Those are the composite sketches. I could -- could I see that for a second?
Q Yeah, would it help you at this time and would it be of assistance to the grand jury in aiding you to describe the people that you saw?
MR. WOERHEIDE: Miss Reporter, will you mark that as MacDonald exhibit giving it the next number of this day and then pass it on to Dr. MacDonald?
(MacDONALD EXHIBIT 12, DATED 8-15-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. WOERHEIDE: What number did you give it, Miss Reporter?
REPORTER: Number 12.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Thank you.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Looking at your exhibit 12, tell us the appearances of these individuals, sir.
A Well, I have listed here heights and weights. This is a gross approximation. Quite honestly, the Negro male, I would have said was somewheres 5' 8" to 5' 10", one sixty to one seventy pounds. Had short hair. Reasonably short hair. Nothing like an Afro or mode or anything like that and did not have a mustache.
The middle male was shorter. I'd say probably 5' 7" to 5' 8" range, coloring lighter, and it appeared he was heavier. The only distinct thing about him is, it seemed to me he had sort of a narrow -- sort of a weasel -- weasley or a narrower face with a small -- I think had a fine mustache, but that -- even that is pretty sketchy. And the thing about him was that there was -- there was a fullness behind his neck that I saw, what just seemed like a glimpse. And this is the one that Mr. Caverly screwed up so nicely, the FBI agent. I told him there was a fullness behind the neck, and he said, "you mean like a football jersey?", and I said, yeah, that's what it looked like, that sort of thing bundled up. So he then writes down that I gave him a description of a man with a red football jersey. That is not it at all. I said there was a fullness, a high-collared neck. The male on the right-hand side as I was struggling and viewing them, which would be the male nearest the stairs, seemed to be 5' 9", 5' 10", again about a hundred seventy pounds. He was the least distinct of the three people to me, and the only thing I really remember was kind of a high forehead, and that was only after piecing it together with the characteristics.
He did not have a mustache. None of the three that I saw had glasses, and none of them had long hair. I never called them long-haired hippies.
The female -- I told the artist this, and I believe I have also told -- I guess the investigators in the case, that the facial details that they have given her are -- that is really -- he could have put on most any eyes or nose in there, and I couldn't have said anything different.
(Witness indicates Exhibit 12.)
That was a sense of a large hat and hair that was coming down and she seemed short.
But that is honestly --
Q You say she seemed short. Now, somehow, short is short. All of these terms are relative?
A No, 5' 5", possibly 5' 4" or 5' 5", because the glimpse I got of her seemed to me only to be through the two white males at the end of the couch, and I didn't see her initally.
But, I -- you know -- I saw her as I was getting up higher and there was -- just a glimpse like that, and that was it.
Q Unh-hunh, all right, Dr. MacDonald, will you take one of those markers and let's refer to the -- to the spots that you marked on the diagram as A, B, C and D; A being the Negro, B being the man closest to the Negro, C being the man at the foot of the couch and next to the steps, and D being the female figure standing behind B and C.
(Witness indicates persons A, B, C and D on Exhibits 10 and 11.)
Q Dr. MacDonald, has marked those --
A Is that correct, Mr. Woerheide?
Q Yes, that's correct. Now, will you place corresponding marks or A, B, C, and D on your exhibit 12, which you have before you?
A Yes, I will.
(Witness writes on Exhibit 12.)
Q Thank you, sir.
MR. WOERHEIDE: The grand jury like to have these passed around among you or do you want to see it later?
JUROR: We can see it later.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right, thank you.
(Witness hands Exhibit 12 to Mr. Woerheide.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Now, as you were struggling to get up, after being knocked down on the couch, I take it your left leg was reaching to the floor on the left side of the couch, is that correct, sir?
A In front of the couch, that's correct.
Q But the thrust of your body was forward in the direction of B and C, is that correct?
A Correct. Once I had gotten up that far, yes.
Q How far did you get up?
A Well, I don't know. It seemed in reconstructing it, seems that my left leg was down on the floor, and I presumed that my knee was still on the couch -- you know -- I never said to myself, gee, was my knee on the couch, until we went through this type thing.
But it seems I was up and when I was struggling with the two males in front of me that my knee would be folded up under me.
Q Now, at that stage of the struggle, did you get your bottom off the couch or was your weight upon -- let's say -- your knee that might be bent under your bottom?
A Sir, you're trying to make something precise that is really imprecise in my mind.
It seems that my butt would be off the couch by this time, right.
Q Yeah, but you weren't upright, you never got to the point where you were standing up and in a position to really trade blows with anybody?
A I was upright but at that point my hands were all wrapped up in my pajama top.
Q Now, as best you can recall, how did that happen?
A I did not know, sir.
Q Who --
A The -- the only two mechanisms that could have happened would have been that it was jerked over -- you know -- my head or it ripped -- was ripped from around my back, and I don't know. I didn't hear any ripping sound.
Q Who was in a position to jerk it over your head or --
A Any -- any of the A, B, or C assailants.
Q Were they grabbing at you or punching at you or striking at you?
A It was very confusing to me. It seemed to me that I was getting punched, really.
Q You didn't feel people grabbing at you and tearing garments from your body?
A Sir, have you ever been in a fight? I don't remember specifically -- specifically recall someone grabbing me, no, no, I don't remember that.
Q Well, some people have a tendency to wrestle and some people have a tendency to box. The wrestlers are grabbers and the boxers are hitters or punchers.
A I was under the impression that I was really being punched. That was my impression.
Q You were being hit with a stick and being punched?
A I was being hit in the left side and being punched somewhere in the front and somewhat from my left side is what it seemed like.
Q All right, who was doing the punching?
A Well, I presume the two, B and C.
Q Both of them?
A I think so. It seems that way to me, because it seems I was fending off a lot of blows from in front of me.
Q Well, was C punching at the front side of your body and B punching at the left side of your body?
A No, I would say B was almost head on, and C was a little bit to the right. I don't really -- it didn't seem like -- it wasn't really from the left side, you know.
Q Now, where were you when you were struck this blow that was particularly painful that seemed to take the breath out of you?
A I was -- I was holding onto the club at this point -- you know -- I mean -- I was up -- I don't know if I was up or I was down yet. I don't know if my left leg was up yet, but I was sitting upright if not my leg sliding down on the floor.
Q You were reaching up to the point where you could actually --
A No, not reaching up. It was more like right here.
Q I see.
A (Witness indicates position.) It was more like lateral to my shoulder region, that is my arms were.
Q And you actually got your hand on the club?
A Right. It really wasn't that I got my hands on it. My hands were on the arm, and the arm jerked away. And my hands -- you know -- slid down onto the club. It really -- how it seems to me, I didn't grab a club.
Q I'm going to ask you as to sensation again. Was the club rough? Was it angular? Was it smooth? Was it slick?
A It seemed -- as far as the sensation of the roundness or angular or smooth or rough, I really don't recall that.
It seems to me that if the weapon that was produced -- you know -- at the Article 32 hearing was the weapon that was being used against me, I would have noticed the roughness of it.
As a matter of fact, I told my lawyers that.
So it still seems to me, that I'm still more of the opinion that it was a bat than a piece of wood or a club.
In other words, I didn't distinctly remember an angularity to it, and I was holding onto it.
Q Was it the size of a bat as you recall it; its length, diameter, color?
A Well, that just -- that was really just a fleeting impression. It was sort of like -- you know -- lifting up -- you know -- a stick or something, and I just had the impression that it was a club or a bat.
Q Well, you didn't feel it was a broomstick?
A No, oh, no, it was bigger than that, right.
Q It was big enough it might have been a bat?
Q Well, all the -- almost invariably a bat is a piece of light-colored wood?
A There are dark bats, but --
Q There are dark bats?
A -- but usually they are light.
Q Well, what was your color impression?
A I didn't have one. I don't really remember.
Q All right, you got your hands on his hands, because you had to go from the sleeve to the hand in order to reach the club?
Q Tell me about the sense sensation so far as his hands were concerned?
A During this struggle, there were several times -- I say several, I don't want to exaggerate -- there were a couple of times, at least, that I had a hold of hands.
I haven't -- I have an indistinct recollection of holding onto what I thought was a gloved hand, and what I recollect still, and what I have described before, as a pebble grain type feeling; a rough glove feeling. Not -- you know -- not -- you'd say contrast distinction to a cloth or a smooth glove.
Q That would be the sort of glove used around the kitchen --
Q -- for dishwashing?
Q That was a plastic that had a rough or pebble grain --
Q -- rubber that were heavy enough to have some insulation to it?
A Right, that -- Mr. Woerheide, I can't get across to you how quickly these things occurred.
Q I understand that.
A You're trying to be very precise about something that I just --
Q I know we can't be exactly precise, but --
A Have you ever questioned two people in a fight? Two people in a fight -- you know -- give you totally different recall -- you know -- and if it happened five minutes ago.
Q Well, --
A But what I'm trying to say is I have an impression -- you know -- to this day of grabbing hands several times, and at least on one of those occasions if not two of them, I had a feeling that I was holding on -- you know -- not to skin, and -- you know -- when you get pushed on that, then, it seemed like it was heavy -- you know -- the --
Q Well, when you think of the sensation of these hands that you thought had gloves on, would that be the hands of A or the hands of B or the hands of C?
A I don't know that. I honestly don't know that -- you know -- in reconstructing now, which is not recollection, it would seem that one of the hands would have had to have been the hand or hands of A, but I'm not sure of that. I'm really not sure of that.
I know one of the times that I held a hand, it was either of B or C -- you know -- they were right in front of me, and I was holding onto a hand, and that's when it was a glimpse of really -- just a blade or something else that was in the hand that I realized I may have been being stabbed rather than being punched.
Q I know this is going to be difficult to pinpoint, but this blade that you thought you saw, was that -- would you say that was in the hands of B or the hand of C?
A I don't know. If I had to -- if I had to, I would guess that if it were B, he would have to be left-handed, because it seemed to me it was more in the right side of my body.
So either a left-handed B or C, I would say probably C is more likely.
Q Now, at this time when you were being punched, your pajama tops had already gotten wrapped around your hands?
Q And they're around, I take it, your wrists and hands, and they sort of bound them together?
Q So you couldn't --
A Well, you couldn't effectively use one hand. You had to use two hands.
Q So you were, let's say, reduced to just sort of pushing --
Q -- and shoving?
A Unh-hunh (yes), exactly.
Q Can you tell the grand jury how many times you were punched?
A I have no idea. It seemed like a lot. My later wounds didn't -- you know -- didn't really look like I had just a rain of blows on my head.
Q Do you remember a blow on your left forehead?
Q When was that administered?
A I would say that was probably the first blow.
Q And did you have a later -- the mark of a blow somewhere on this side? (Indicating)
A I had a mark that was in the right hairline up here.
Q Right hairline?
A Yeah, and I think --
Q Was that made by the club again?
A I presume so, I don't know that.
Q Now, after this struggle you say you fell. What position were you when you fell?
A Okay, the best I can do is to describe is that, it seems to me that I had to have my left leg -- my left leg had to have been down here on the floor, and my right knee was still on the couch. And I just -- what I honestly really recollect without reconstructing is that I was falling forward towards the stairs -- you know -- which are right adjacent at the end of the couch.
Q Now, you say on the way down you saw the knee and the top of a boot?
A Yeah, I got a glimpse --
Q A glimpse?
A -- of a knee and a top of a boot.
Q Can you tell me, had that lady or woman -- I shouldn't call her a lady because she wasn't -- she is not a lady, but had that woman moved her position to another point during this time?
A Well, that's what I -- you know -- in reconstruction, it seems to me that she had to be either here or actually up on the stairs in order for me to have gotten that view. (Indicating on exhibit.)
I don't know that. I didn't see her move, and I never saw her again after that glimpse. That's the thing. So --
Q You had one brief glimpse of her --
A I --
Q -- and you heard her intoning certain words?
Q Now, acid is --
A -- groovy.
A Kill the pigs.
Q Kill the pigs. How many times did you hear her say that?
A Several, it seemed to me.
Q And while this was going on, you continued to hear Colette and Kimberly?
A I don't know -- what I really heard was what I told you before. I heard, "Help, Jeff. Help, Help. Jeff, help me. Why are they doing this to me?" And I heard Kimberly and -- and I honestly don't know how long I heard that.
Q Well, at least in the early part of the struggle you heard it?
A Right, when I saw -- when I saw the three and probably four people, I still heard that, that's correct.
Q Now, will you show us where your body was the next time you remember something. You told us that your arms were underneath you, the pajama top was around your hands, you were lying on the floor and your teeth were chattering.
I believe you said you were lying at the end of the hallway.
Now, can you indicate where you were at that time?
A It seems -- it seemed to me that I was lying right here.
(Witness indicates on floor plan.)
I didn't look around to see where I was. I was just lying there, and I got up and started walking.
But it would seem to me -- you know -- if my head was here and possibly -- you know -- down even over the stairs -- the two stairs -- I don't know. I don't remember that.
Q All right, now, could you take a red marker, sir, and indicate the position where let's say, the upper part of your torso would be?
A All right.
(Witness marks on floor plan.)
Q Now, when you came to with an awareness of where you were, the light was still on in the kitchen?
A I don't know that.
Q Or was the light on in the kitchen when you awoke and saw these four people?
A Sure -- you know -- we left it on.
Q Well, was it still on when you became aware of the fact that you were lying there in the hall?
A I don't know that. I mean, I don't know. I didn't look around and take stock of what lights were on.
Q All right, did you look down the hall?
A No, I got up and walked -- I got up and walked the length, but I don't remember looking ahead until I actually got right here.
(Witness indicates on floor plan.)
Q Well, when you passed the bathroom was the light shining out of the bathroom?
A All I remember, sir, it seemed to be fairly -- it seemed relatively bright. I could see fairly easily.
Q You didn't have to grope your way? You could see your way.
Q Now, when you got to the bedroom, the light was off?
A Again --
Q As I recall from I think everything you've said up to this point. I think.
A Well, I don't --
Q (Interposing) I'm not trying -- don't let me influence your present recollection --
A No, -- I don't know --
Q Just tell us --
A Yeah --
Q -- what you -- the way you recall it now.
A Yeah, I don't know -- I don't know if I or if I did not turn on a light which is on this wall here.
(Witness indicates on floor plan.)
A There's a switch there. That is really -- you know -- sort of a rebuilding that as I walked in I would flip up the light.
All I really, honestly recollect is that as I walked in, it was very easy to see.
Q All right, let me ask you this, now, is it not a fact that if that light was on the moment you lifted your head you could have looked down the hall and seen Colette?
Q And you don't recall actually seeing what you saw until you got to the entrance of the bedroom?
A That's correct.
Q Now, does that help you with respect to whether or not the light was on or off?
A Now, because when I got up, I don't remember like looking up and seeing what's down -- you know -- it's really hard to try to describe what I'm trying to say --
Q Well, would you not have to make about fifteen or twenty steps to get from your position at the west end of the hall to the entrance to the bedroom?
A Well, I don't know if it's that long. Eight or nine strides, I guess.
Q Eight or nine or ten strides --
Q -- at the outside, maybe?
Q While you were striding down there, did you see Colette until you got right to the door?
A As I arrived -- you know -- this -- this looks great on a diagram. This is like a step and a half or two steps which would take less than two seconds, so as I was arriving here, I could see Colette right here.
(Witness indicates on floor plan.)
So that's all. When I was here I didn't -- you know -- look up and say, can I or can I not see down the hallway.
Q I understand. I'm just trying to fix -- you know -- what you could see when you did get up and as you walked down the hall.
Q You could see a light coming from the bathroom?
A Well, it seemed bright to me. It seemed like there were lights on, that's right.
Q Well, was there a light on in Kris's room or Kimberly's room?
A No, there's a light on in the bathroom or in the hallway; either up here on the ceiling or in the bathroom.
Q I see.
A But that's the one we left on so they could walk around.
Q All right now, as you recall getting to Colette's room, there was enough light to see?
Q But you don't recall it being a bright light as though the light was on, and you do have a -- some sort of a recollection, or you have had a recollection of turning the light on --
Q -- as you went in the room?
Q Now, Dr. MacDonald, will you let's say indicate where the chair was in that bedroom and indicate as best you can the location of Colette's body?
(Witness goes back to floor plan and makes a drawing on it.)
A The chair was --
Q Wasn't it in front of -- sort of in front of Colette's dresser over there?
A Yeah, but this space is really inaccurate.
Q It's too large?
A Way too large.
Q Well, try to place the chair with reference to the dresser, if you can.
A Yeah, but then that gives you a very inaccurate view of what's visible down the hall.
Q Well, show us where Colette's body was -- let's forget about the chair.
A Well, it was against the chair. They're together.
Q Okay, well, first put in the body and then put in the chair.
A Well, it seemed to me that --
Q She was right straight down the hall, was she not? I mean if you looked down the hall you could see her?
A No, I don't think so. She was -- as we came in, she was this way.
A There was a -- she was sort of like this. Let me just do it that way.
Q All right.
A And the chair -- this room is really out of proportion it seems to me, because the chair was -- there was a big green easy chair right here that is what was visible down the hallway, I think.
Q Unh-hunh (yes).
A But she was leaning against that chair though.
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q Well, why don't you draw her body just a little bit larger to indicate that it was leaning against the chair.
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q All right, now --
A These are her legs down here; feet are down here.
Q At this time, do you recall turning the light on?
A Recall turning the light on?
A No, sir, that's really a reconstruction, because it was easy to see. I could see everything -- you know -- so if the -- you know -- the light wasn't on, I turned it on.
Q Did you relieve yourself of the pajama top?
A Right, I took it off and either dropped it or threw it aside.
Q You have any idea where you placed it?
A No, it would seem to me that it would have gone -- it would have gone -- you know -- in this area right here, somewhere in here near the chair. I think I threw it off to the left, but that's such a --
Q So, it would be in the area by her feet?
A Yes, unless I threw it to the right. See, it doesn't make any sense, because I don't know that.
Q Well, you said she had a knife in the upper part of her body?
Q Her head was bloody?
A I didn't say that.
Q Well, was it? When you observed it, did you see blood?
A There was blood all over there. The main thing that I remember was the chest.
Q There was a knife in her chest?
Q There was blood?
A There was a lot of blood.
Q All right, now, you proceeded to Colette's body. I take it you proceeded to the left side of her body which would be the side away from the chair, is that correct?
A That's correct, right.
Q And did you kneel down to the floor?
A I'm sure I did, because if I gave her mouth to mouth respiration, I would have had to.
Q I'm going to ask you to take that red marker to -- that you used to draw your location at the end of the hall, and trace your movements to the point where you entered the room and then proceeded beside Colette and gave her mouth to mouth resuscitation.
A You mean with a line?
Q Just draw a line, yeah.
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q Now, I have never observed anyone myself giving mouth to mout resuscitation, myself, Dr. MacDonald, but what is that procedure? Now, what -- how do you do it?
A Well, you tilt the head back; you pinch the nostrils shut; usually you put the other hand -- you know -- behind the victim. The person doing it is on my left.
Tilt the head back, pinch the nostrils shut, with the hand that's up -- it's hard to explain it.
If I'm on her left side, the normal procedure is my right hand would force the forehead down and back. I would pinch the nostrils shut; put my left hand under her neck to elevate it a little bit, and then breathe in her mouth.
Q In order to do this, did you slightly move the body?
You said it was adjacent to the chair.
A Her right shoulder was. Her right shoulder was up against the chair a little, and I think I moved -- you know -- in doing this mouth to mouth, I sort of straightened her around.
Q Now, what did that involve? Grasping her by the shoulders, and --
Q -- and sliding the body over a few inches so that it was in -- so it was straightened out, lying flat on the floor?
A Yeah, something like that, right. Let me see, now. Yeah, it would probably just be sort of like grasping her by both shoulders, picking her up a little bit, and easing her over and laying her back down again.
Q How far would you say you moved her?
A Oh, six inches or so.
Q And I take it you only moved the upper part of her body? You didn't lift her off the floor or anything of that sort?
A I don't know, sir. If you told me I moved her four feet, you may be right. I don't know.
Q Well --
A Seems to me that the movement was not very much. We're talking about six inches or a foot to straighten her away from the chair, and then do some mouth to mouth.
Q Yeah. Now, you say you withdrew a knife from her chest.
Q Do you have any idea what you did with the knife?
A I just --
Q Once you had it in your hand?
A I just threw it aside.
Q Which way?
A I believe -- I believe it was to the left, because I believe I pulled it out with my left hand.
Q Now, when you say to the left -- does that -- in which direction would it go?
A I don't have any ideas, sir. I honestly have no idea. I would say towards her feet.
Q From your experience in emergency rooms, do you have victims brought in who have knives or other things stuck in them?
A Infrequently, yeah.
Q What's the standard procedure?
A Depends on how bad they are. You take it out and you fix the wound; put in a chest tube if they're still alive, or open the chest and do a heart massage if they have cardiac arrest.
But if you mean take it out or leave it in, you take it out.
You leave it in in the field unless you have to do close chest massage.
Q Why is that?
A If you have to do closed chest massage, you're pumping up and down on the chest, right?, and the knife blade is going to puncture the organ each time you move it up and down.
Q Well, why is the procedure different in the field?
A Well, I'm assuming, when I say in the field, I mean with nonmedical personnel.
The trained personnel are trained to leave it in place so the doctor can see, for instance, how deep the blade is. Because every witness will tell you different.
Four policemen saw the stabbing, and one said it went in an inch, and the other ones said it went in eight inches. It's a big difference.
Q Well, I'm going to ask you again how deep was the knife thrust into her chest?
A Seems to me that it was -- it was -- all I saw was the handle.
Q You gave her mouth to mouth resuscitation, and the air escaped from her chest?
Q And you checked her pulse?
Q Now, how did you check her pulse?
A Well, you know, I'm just telling you what I would normally do. I remember holding her wrist, and I remember checking the left femoral area in the groin, and I think I checked her carotid. That's the usual check, is the carotid.
But, you know, it was pretty bloody.
Q Now, where did you go when you left Colette?
A I went to see Kimberly, in the front bedroom.
Q Her bed was on the other side of the wall from the couch?
A I'm sorry, sir.
Q Her bed in her bedroom was against the wall that is next to the living room couch?
Q And you can pass to the left side of the bed, the side nearest the windows, let's say, on the side next to the hall.
As you go into the door, you have a choice.
A Yes, but it was difficult to get to this -- to the hallway side of her bed, because of her stereo and her toys there.
Q So, how did you proceed?
A You want me to put the bed in?
Q Yeah, why don't you put in the bed? Use a black marker for the bed.
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q And you might if you can tell us or indicate to us where Kimberly was in the bed, and --
A Kimberly was on the -- from the foot of the bed, it would be the left side of the bed -- you know --
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q All right, sir, now, using that red marker again, would you show us your movements from the time you left Colette until the time that you arrived at Kimberly's bedside?
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q Now, how was -- what was Kimberly's position in the bed?
A Well, it seemed to me, although the CID has told me differently, it seemed to me that she was on her back.
I don't distinctly remember her being on one side and it seems pretty plain that she was on her back, because -- you know -- at one time I gave her mouth to mouth and I had checked her pulses.
And it seemed to me that she was on her back.
Q Well, can you check the pulses in the manner in which you checked them effectively or efficiently unless the person is on their back?
A No, that's part of this sort of a reconstruction -- you know -- that just sort of solidifies my recollection, if that makes any sense to you.
Q Well, now, how about mouth to mouth resuscitation? As I recall, you're not sure whether you gave it to her the first time or the second time you came there?
Q But you did at least check her pulses?
Q You looked at her?
Q Was her body fully covered up? Did you have to pull the covers back in order to check her femoral pulse?
A I don't really remember pulling them back, but I remember checking her pulse.
Q Could you reach under the covers to do that?
A Sure, you know, I do that all the time. You know, you do that all the time with a patient. It's conceivable while you're looking at them, you're already sliding your hand under the covers and feeling them.
But it seems to me that she was not covered when I was checking her pulse. Do you follow me?
I mean there were no covers in the way.
Q Can you tell me whether or not she had wet the bed?
A I didn't notice. I don't know. She never wet the bed.
Q Well, if you had checked her femoral pulse, you would have been able to perceive whether or not she was wet?
Q Don't you reach into that area to check the pulse?
A No, you don't reach down to the vagina, no, you reached half way across the upper leg essentially.
Q I see.
A You don't reach down below the --
Q How low below the hip?
A It's at the hip. It's at the crease.
Q I see. Well, whether or not you gave her artificial respiration at that time, would you indicate to us how you would have proceeded? Now, in this case you would have been on the right side of her body whereas with respect to Colette, you would have been on the left side of Colette's body.
Once again, would you have pressed down on the head, --
A You don't --
Q -- elevate the --
A You don't always have to do that with kids. I don't think I had to do that. Their airways aren't as hard to keep open.
Q Would you have had to move the pillow in order to get her head into the right position?
Q Would you have had to cradle her head in the -- in your left hand, let's say to --
A No, that would be -- in the left hand, no. You'd probably use your left hand to pinch the nostrils. Seems to me really what I did I pinched her nostrils and leaned down and breathed into her mouth. Did not do a lot of adjustment. Kids' airways are easier.
Q Once again, you perceived bubbling?
Q In other words, air was coming out of her chest?
A Yeah, upper chest and neck area.
Q And then you went to Kristen's room next, is that it?
Q Would you now indicate Kristen's bed, and position of her body?
(Witness goes to floor plan and points.)
Q And you entered through the door, and you walked I take it straight to the point alongside of her body, is that correct, sir?
A Yeah, that's how I would reconstruct it rather. I just walked up to the bed.
Q By the way, when you entered Kristen's room, did you turn the light on?
A I -- I don't think so. I don't remember that.
Q So did some light filter in through the window?
A I don't think so. You can see in her room when the hallway or bathroom lights are on.
Q In other words, when the door is open, the light shines directly through the door into Kimberly's room?
A There's plenty of reflected light to see in, right.
Q Yeah, and is the same thing true in Kristen's room?
A Is what true, sir?
Q That there was enough reflected light coming in from the hallway --
Q -- through an open door?
A That's right, correct.
Q So you can see your way about the room and you can see -- you could actually see Kris lying in bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q So, it was not necessary for you to turn the light on?
And the light was bright enough in each instance, in Kimberly's room and Kris's room so you could perceive blood?
A Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q Well, let's continue the mark and showing your progress -- and show your progress from the bedside of Kimberly to the bedside of Kristen.
(Witness draws line on floor plan.)
Q And once again, what was Kristen's posture? Was she lying on her side or on her back or just how?
A She seemed to be on her back, also. Again, I've been told that that is not the case. But that's what it seems like to me.
Q Let me ask you this, Dr. MacDonald, when you laid her in the bed, did you lay her in the same spot where you observed her when you came back? You said she had moved around a lot, had kicked the covers off of her?
Q How was she? Was she covered or uncovered?
A I don't remember that. You mean when I came in now?
A I don't remember. I remember that she seemed to have -- there seemed to be more blood visible than with Kimberly.
And I don't remember whether she was covered or not.
I remember I could see her easily. Either she was uncovered or I pulled the covers down.
Q And she, too, was bloody?
A She seemed to be.
Q And she was lying flat on her back?
Q You didn't have to roll her over?
A No, I didn't.
Q You did give her mouth to mouth resuscitation?
A Yes, I did.
Q Now, in a child of her age, what is the procedure?
A Usually you just put your hand under the neck or between the shoulder blades and elevate them a little bit, and then cover their mouth and nose with your mouth.
Q Did you do it in this manner?
A I don't know.
Q On this occasion?
A It depends -- she has had -- she's sort of had a change in size, so you can either do it that way, or you can do the mouth to mouth and pinch the nostrils.
I honestly don't know. It seems to me I just picked her up mainly with my right hand a little bit, and -- you know -- breathed in her mouth or mouth and nose.
In other words, your cheek blocks off the nose if you do it mouth to mouth.
Q You say you may have elevated her head a little bit. Would that entail putting your hand under the back of her chest?
A Right, not the back of her chest so much, but merely on the back of the neck between the -- between the upper part of her shoulders but mainly the back of her neck.
Q Okay, while you were handling her, or touching her, did you observe blood in this area, this location?
A Sir, there seemed to me that there was blood everywhere. It seemed there was a lot of blood.
Q Yeah, now, from this point, I think you said initially you went back to Colette, but then you seemed at a later -- just a little bit later you mentioned having gone to the bathroom and observed yourself.
A Right, that's right.
Q And the blood.
A That was from -- you want me to mark this, sir?
Q Yes, please do. Let's show your movements into the bathroom, and the position you were in while you were in the bathroom?
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
A It was from here out to here and there was a stop somewhere in here; somewhere in this area.
I'll just put it here.
Q All right.
A And I felt my head -- my head hurt a lot.
A And I took my hand away and it was bloody, and I thought it was my blood. So I went in the bathroom, right there to the sink. Shall I mark the sink?
Q All right, use a black mark for the sink.
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q Now, the mirror is right over the sink?
A That's right.
Q When you looked in the mirror, did you see yourself?
A Yes, I did.
Q And when you looked at yourself, what did you see?
A I saw a lot -- seemed like a lot of blood around my mouth, and I could -- like a streak or two of blood on my forehead, and a bruise on the left side of my forehead, and that was it, and I thought to myself --
Q Well, were you bare-chested at this point?
Q Did you observe any blood on your torso?
A I didn't notice. At some time, at sometime during all this, but it was in the master bedroom at some time. I remember thinking that there was a little bit of blood on my chest or something, but I don't remember the specifics about that; not when or how much, but I remember thinking there was a little bit.
Q All right, now from the bathroom -- well, while you were in the bathroom, did you -- well, do anything?
A Yeah, I washed my --
Q (Interposing) I'm sure you know what I have in mind.
A I'm sure I do, too, yeah, I washed my hands.
Q Will you tell us about that?
A Sir, I have no idea why I washed my hands. Doesn't make much sense.
Q Is it an automatic action?
A I presume so. I was trying to figure out what the hell was going on. I didn't know what was going on, and I don't know if I was using it as an -- something to do. My hands had some blood on them, and I washed my hands in the sink while I was standing there.
Q How did you dry off the hands?
A I don't know. There was a towel there or a wash cloth or tissues from behind the toilet or toilet paper or something, but I was going like this. I was going like this. I can distinctly remember that. (Indicating movement of hands.)
And I threw something down either in the toilet or next to the toilet and between -- and then I went back in the master bedroom. I realized there was still no help.
Q Now, this is something we glossed over. According to your best recollection in the past, and -- was that the first time you were in the bedroom, and next to Colette's body, you covered her with something?
Q What was that?
A Well, my pajama top. That's what I know I covered her with.
Q Yeah, anything else?
A I thought there was, because I reached across her and was pulling stuff. There was some clothing on the green chair that she had been leaning against, so I got up and I was leaning across her, and I was pulling something and that's really what I remember. I was pulling at something and thinking I have to cover her with something more than my pajama top.
Q But now you don't recall what that was?
A No, sir.
Q Was that before or after you attempted to take her pulse?
A Oh, I don't remember. In reconstructing I would probably have to say it was after, I would guess. I don't know. The thing is, Mr. Woerheide, a lot of these answers are fifty-fifty.
Q Well, I understand that, Dr. MacDonald, I'm just -- let's -- we're both trying to do the best we can, I assume.
Q I in my -- in an effort to bring out as many specific facts as we can, and you in your effort to recall them and try to enlighten us concerning these matters.
Q All right, now, to get the pajama top in your hands, and put it over the upper part of Colette's body, I take it you didn't have to change positions. You just reached out and grabbed it wherever it was?
A Yeah, I remember looking around and reaching around, and picked it up and put it on her and covered her chest.
Q Then you remember reaching across her body to the chair and grabbing something off the chair, and also putting that on her body to cover her?
Q And your reason for doing that was --
A Well, in case she wasn't dead -- you know -- initally to treat shock.
Q Yeah, all right, now, let's go back to the bathroom and tell us where you proceeded. Did you once again proceed to the side of Colette or did you go to the telephone?
A I think I went to Colette first. I think I checked her.
Q All right, so let's draw a line back to where you checked her.
(Witness goes to easel and draws mark on floor plan.)
A I believe it was roughly the same position.
Q And you once again gave her --
A I don't know if I gave it to her a second time. I think I did. I checked her pulses and I picked up the -- at this point it could have only been my pajama top on her chest, because at this point I picked it up and looked at her chest. Hmmm, that's the only thing I picked up at that point and looked at her chest.
Q And then did you put it back down again?
Q So, you raised it, looked at her chest and then lowered it again, is that it?
Q And what did you observe when you looked at her chest?
A That it was bloody, appeared to be a lot of wounds.
Q Now, was it then that you moved to the telephone?
Q Would you indicate where the telephone is?
A With a black pencil?
A It was near the end of the bureau, right here.
Q All right, now, I think we have enough red marks on there and would you start now with the -- what is it, the blue marker or the --
A I think green would be the best.
Q All right, let's use the green marker, and show us how you got to the telephone. Did you step over Colette's body?
A I don't know if I stepped over it. I could have gone either way. I don't know. I could have gone either way to the phone.
The more likely way is this way.
Q All right, well please indicate that.
(Witness draws mark on floor plan.)
Q So you dialed zero, you got the operator, you had a --
A A little exchange with the operator.
Q A little exchange with the operator. You dropped the telephone?
Q You didn't put it back in the cradle?
A Not that I remember.
Q You remember whether you just laid it on the dresser or dropped it down?
A I don't remember. It could have been either. I was -- you know -- dumbfounded as to what she was questioning me about.
Q All right, now, where did you go from the telephone?
A I think that what I was going to do was go check the kids again. But what happened, I think as I placed this -- you know -- this is mainly reconstruction. I -- as I got to this point, I saw that this door was open.
(Indicating on floor plan.)
Q All right, sir.
A So I went over to the door, and I went here.
(Indicating on floor plan.)
And I looked, and I didn't see anything.
Q Did you -- how far ajar was the door? You say it was open?
A Seemed to me that -- if I can use the black pen -- that this door was like this. Something like this.
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
A And it seemed to me that the screen door was as it looks here.
A That's what it seemed like.
Q All right.
(WHEREUPON, THE HEARING WAS RECESSED UNTIL 9:00 a.m., FRIDAY, AUGUST 16, 1974.)
Webmaster note:The original stenographer's misspellings of Douthett, MacGann, Propst and Stephenson were corrected to Douthat, McGann, Probst and Stevenson, respectively, in this transcript.