CID Records

April 6, 1970

Interview of Jeffrey MacDonald by Grebner, Ivory and Shaw

Volume 1 (PDF file)
Volume 2




MR. GREBNER:  We've done a great deal of work and collected a lot of information (inaudible) and I want to hear your story. You've told it to other people (inaudible). But, again you've (inaudible) you know, and (inaudible) the information more clearly.


MR. GREBNER:  However, before I do, I would like to advise you of your rights.

MR. MACDONALD:  It's sounding very ominous.

MR. GREBNER:  You have the right to remain absolutely silent. You don't have to answer any questions or do anything. However, if you do answer any questions or do anything that would tend to incriminate you that could be used against you.
      Now, you have the right to consult with counsel before answering any questions; and that can be civilian counsel or military counsel. Civilian, it would be at your own expense. If it's military, it can be of your own choosing.
      Even if you decide to answer questions at this time, that doesn't mean that you can't stop at any time.
      Mr. MacDonald, now do you desire counsel at this time?


MR. GREBNER:  Just go ahead and tell us your story.

MR. MACDONALD:  Let's see. Monday night my wife went to bed, and I was reading. And I went to bed about -- somewheres around two o'clock. I really don't know; I was reading on the couch, and my little girl Kristy had gone into bed with my wife.
      And I went in to go to bed, and the bed was wet. She had wet the bed on my side, so I brought her in her own room. And I don't remember if I changed her or not; gave her a bottle and went out to the couch 'cause my bed was wet. And I went to sleep on the couch.
      And then the next thing I know I heard some screaming, at least my wife; but I thought I heard Kimmie, my older daughter, screaming also. And I sat up. The kitchen light was on, and I saw some people at the foot of the bed.
     So, I don't know if I really said anything or I was getting ready to say something. This happened real fast. You know, when you talk about it, it sounds like it took forever; but it didn't take forever.
     And so, I sat up; and at first I thought it was -- I just could see three people, and I don't know if I -- If I heard the girl first -- or I think I saw her first. I think two of the men separated sort of at the end of my couch, and I keep -- all I saw was some people really.
     And this guy started walking down between the coffee table and the couch, and he raised something over his head and just sort of then -- sort of all together -- I just got a glance of this girl with kind of a light on her face. I don't know if it was a flashlight or a candle, but it looked to me like she was holding something. And I just remember that my instinctive thought was that "she's holding a candle. What the hell is she holding a candle for?"
     But she said, before I was hit the first time, "Kill the pigs. Acid's groovy."
     Now, that's all -- that's all I think I heard before I was hit the first time, and the guy hit me in the head. So I was knocked back on the couch, and then I started struggling to get up, and I could hear it all then -- Now I could -- Maybe it's really, you know -- I don't know if I was repeating to myself what she just said or if I kept hearing it, but I kept -- I heard, you know, "Acid is groovy. Kill the pigs."
     And I started to struggle up; and I noticed three men now; and I think the girl was kind of behind them, either on the stairs or at the foot of the couch behind them. And the guy on my left was a colored man, and he hit me again; but at the same time, you know, I was kind of struggling. And these two men, I thought, were punching me at the same time. Then I -- I remember thinking to myself that -- see, I work out with the boxing gloves sometimes. I was then -- and I kept -- "Geeze, that guy throws a hell of a punch," because he punched me in the chest, and I got this terrible pain in my chest.
     And so, I was struggling, and I got hit on the shoulder or the side of the head again, and so I turned and I -- and I grabbed this guy's whatever it was. I thought it was a baseball bat at the time. And I had -- I was holding it. I was kind of working up it to hold onto it.
     Meanwhile, both these guys were kind of hitting me, and all this time I was hearing screams. That's what I can't figure out, so -- let's see, I was holding -- so, I saw the -- and all I got a glimpse was, was some stripes. I told you, I think, they were E6 stripes. There was one bottom rocker and it was an army jacket, and that man was a colored man, and the two men, other men, were white.
     And I didn't really notice too much about them. And so I kind of struggled, and I was kind of off balance, 'cause I was still halfway on the couch and half off, and I was holding onto this thing. And I kept getting this pain, either in -- you know, like sort of in my stomach, and he kept hitting me in the chest.
     And so, I let go of the club; and I was grappling with him and I was holding his hand in my hand. And I saw, you know, a blade. I didn't know what it was; I just saw something that looked like a blade at the time.
     And so, then I concentrated on him. We were kind of struggling in the hallway right there at the end of the couch; and then really the next distinctive thing, I thought that -- I thought that I noticed that -- I saw some legs, you know, that -- not covered -- like I'd saw the top of some boots. And I thought that I saw knees as I was falling.
     But it wasn't what was in the papers that I saw white boots. I never saw white, muddy boots. I saw -- saw some knees on the top of boots, and I told, I think, the investigators, I thought they were brown, as a matter of fact.
     And the next thing I remember, though, was lying on the hallway floor, and I was freezing cold and it was very quiet. And my teeth were chattering, and I went down and -- to the bedroom.
     And I had this -- I was dizzy, you know. I wasn't really -- real alert; and I -- my wife was lying on the -- the floor next to the bed. And there were -- there was a knife in her upper chest.
     So, I took that out; and I tried to give her artificial respiration but the air was coming out of her chest. So, I went and checked the kids; and -- just a minute -- and they were -- had a lot of -- there was a lot of blood around.
     So, I went back into the bedroom; and I -- this time I was finding it real hard to breathe, and I was dizzy. So I picked up the phone and I told this asshole operator that it was -- my name was Captain MacDonald and I was at 544 Castle Drive and I needed the MPs and a doctor and an ambulance. And she said, "Is this on post or off post?" -- something like that. And I started yelling at her. I said -- finally, I told her it was on post, and she said, "Well, you'll have to call the MPs."
     So, I dropped the phone; and I went back and I checked my wife again; and now I was -- I don't know. I assume I was hoping I hadn't seen what I had seen or I'd -- or I was starting to think more like a doctor. So, I went back and I checked for pulses. You know, carotid pulses and stuff; and I -- there was no pulse on my wife, and I was -- I felt I was getting sick to my stomach and I was short of breath, and I was dizzy and my teeth were chattering 'cause I was cold. And so I didn't know if I was going -- I assumed I was going into shock because I was cold. That's one of the symptoms of shock; you start getting chills.
     So, I got down on all fours; and I was breathing for a while. Then I realized that I had talked to the operator and nothing really had happened with her. But in any case, when I went back to check my wife, I then went to check the kids. And a couple times I had to -- thinking that I was going into shock and not being able to breathe.
     Now I -- you know, when I look back, of course, it's merely a symptom, that shortness of breath. It isn't -- you weren't really that bad, but that's what happens when you get a pneumothorax. You -- you think you can't breathe.
     And I had to get down on my hands and knees and breathe for a while, and then I went in and checked the kids and checked their pulses and stuff. And -- I don't know if it was the first time I checked them or the second time I checked them, to tell you the truth; but I had all -- you know, blood on my hands and I had little cuts in here (pointing to his mid-section), and my head hurt.
     So, when I reached up to feel my head, you know, my hands were bloody. And so I -- I think it was the second circuit 'cause it -- by that time, I was -- I was thinking better, I thought. And I went into that -- I went into the bathroom right there and looked in the mirror and didn't -- nothing looked wrong. I mean there wasn't really even a cut or anything.
     So, I -- then I went out in the hall. I couldn't breathe, so I was on my hands and knees in the hall, and I -- and it kept hitting me that really nothing had been solved when I called the operator.
     And so I went in and -- that was in the -- you know, in the middle of the hallway there. And I went the other way. I went into the kitchen, picked up that phone and the operator was on the line. My other phone had never been hung up.
     And she was still on the line, and she said, "Is this Captain MacDonald?" I said "Yes it is." And she said, "Just a minute." And there was some dial tones and stuff and then the sergeant came on. And he said, "Can I help you?" So I told him that I needed a doctor and an ambulance and that some people had been stabbed, and that I thought I was going to die.
     And he said, "They'll be right there." So, I left the phone; and I remember going back to look again. And the next thing I knew, an MP was giving me mouth-to-mouth respiration next to -- next to my wife.
     Now, I remember I saw -- I don't know if it was the first or second trip into the bedroom to see my wife -- but I saw the back door was open, but that's immaterial, I guess. That's it.

Q  When you woke up, what -- there were three men there?
A  The first time? You mean when I was on the couch?
Q  Yes.
A  Right. Well, I -- yeah. Now I -- sir, you know, let me say one thing now. You know, when you say something, it sounds cut and dried, but this thing happened -- I'm sure it didn't take more than eight or ten seconds when I think about it.
     You know, I mean I've been in fights before and Christ, you think it's an eternity. And when it's over, it's less than a minute. But I'm sure this was a matter of seconds and it was dark. And I think it was three men, right; because I remember struggling specifically with three people in front of me and seeing a fourth -- seeing the girl. And, really, all I saw of her was some long, stringy blonde hair and -- and a big hat.
Q  You say this man with the sergeant stripes on came toward you? Where did he strike you first? On the head?
A  Right. I mean I was just sitting -- I was just sitting in bed. I was just getting ready to say something like, "What the hell are you -- what's going on here?" When I could hear the screaming.
     And really, it isn't a matter of like running at me or anything 'cause it was only a step. The point is, he was closer than the others; and I remember thinking that he was raising something and I really didn't even defend myself. I mean it was really too -- too fast. I just sort of sat up; and as I looked and saw these people. He was doing this at really, the same time; and he hit me.
     And -- I mean they weren't shouting or anything. There wasn't any -- I mean she wasn't jumping up and down and screaming, you know, "Kill them." The point was, it all seemed -- you know, when you see it like in "Easy Rider." I made the mistake of going to see that film. You know, they have all these stop-action things. Well, that's what it was like.
     All I really see is these real fast glimpses of what happened.

Q  Captain MacDonald, you told one of the other investigators earlier that you were wearing a pajama top that was pulled over your head or something like that.
A  Right. Well, all I know is that is that -- well, when I was struggling now -- after I had been hit the first time, I was struggling with these guys; and my -- somehow, my pajama top -- I don't know if it was ripped forward or pulled over my head. I don't remember actually -- like backing my head through it.
     But all of a sudden, it was around my hands and it was in my way. And I remember that I was holding this thing in my hand -- the guy's hand -- that -- that I couldn't maneuver very well. My hands were kind of wrapped up in the thing.
     And they were punching me, I was kind of using that a little bit, you know, holding it -- right, exactly -- 'cause this guy, I thought, was really punching me in the chest, you know, and in the stomach 'cause I -- I was getting hit across here (pointing to the midsection of his body.)
     So, in effect, I was blunting everything by, you know, holding this up; and I couldn't get my hands free out of the thing. And I remember I ended up, when I was laying on the floor -- I forgot to say that -- when I woke up on -- it was still around my hands and everything, and I took it off as I was going in the bedroom. And after I took this knife out of my wife's chest, I -- you know, keeping her warm. You know, to treat shock that would be (inaudible) and keep them warm.
Q  Was Colette alive then?
A  I -- I didn't think so, sir, because medically, I don't think she could have been because when I gave her mouth-to mouth, I remember distinctly the bubbles were coming out of her chest. So, her chest wall wasn't -- if it's not intact -- you know, you breathe by expanding your chest wall and it pulls your lung out by a vacuum and if the vacuum is broken, you can't breathe.
     I mean I didn't think of all that then. I'm just saying that -- I don't think she was alive because she was just lying there, very still, and made no response at all; and I didn't check her pulse initially. All I did was see her and take the knife out of her chest and -- breathe into her mouth, really.
     So, I don't know, but I assume not. She just -- you know, I've seen a lot of dead people and you can (inaudible).
Q  Did you try to move her any place? You said something about elevating her feet. Would you go through that?
A  Geeze, I don't know, sir. I don't think so. I mean maybe -- there's a green chair there. Maybe she was leaning against it. I don't remember specifically, no.
     But, you know, if she was lying a little crooked, in my compulsive manner I might have straightened her out or something. But I honestly don't remember that. I can't -- I can't say yes to that. I don't remember moving her.
     I remember, you know, later on, when I was checking for pulses and stuff -- you check femoral and carotids and wrist -- and, you know, so I had to move her limbs, probably. But I don't think I moved her body at all.
Q  Do you have and idea how long you were lying there unconscious?
A  Geeze, no.
Q  Nothing.
A  No, I have no idea. All I know is, when I looked at my, you know, medical records and stuff and they told me what my blood pressure was, I couldn't have been unconscious from shock. It had to be from a, you know, blow on the head.
     And, so in other words, this chilling that I was going -- I mean shaking was not from shock and it must have been the temperature. So, it must have cooled off. That's all I can tell you.
     You know, as I go over it myself in my own mind, it had to take awhile to get me cold enough to have shaking chills so my teeth were shaking. That's a real -- that's a real chill, you know, in contrast to people when they say they're chilly.
     So, if I wasn't in shock, the only thing I can say is -- as I've worked it over 6 million times -- that it must have gotten cold enough in there that I was cold just from the cold. It probably would be --
Q  Do you think it was from the door being open?
A  Right, that's what I mean.
Q  How do you control the temperature in this house? Because it was real warm when we got there.
A  Oh, Jesus, I don't know -- well, the heat's always on. We just turn some of the radiators off if it gets too hot.
Q  You just turn the radiators off -- (inaudible) to control the temperature?
A  Right. Right, and open windows, you know. And we don't have any thermostat in the house. If the windows are kept closed and the radiators are left on, it gets unbearable in there. It's too hot.

Q  What part of the hallway were you laying in?
A  Originally?
Q  Yeah?
A  Down near the end. Down near the couch end.

Q  When you were -- where did the struggle actually take place when you were struggling with these three men?
A  Right -- right at the end of the end; right at the foot of the couch.
Q  Right at the foot of the couch?
A  This was not a big deal, you know. I was not James Bond like -- like all my readings. It didn't work out the way it's supposed to work out -- come charging through.

Q  Were the three men involved in this initial assault?
A  Yeah, well, they were -- yeah. I mean it was not -- I remember, you know, it was just kind of a scene around me that I was grabbing things and holding on, basically. And I remember at one time, when I let go of the -- this club that -- you know, I tried to hit a couple people; and I think I hit the guy with the club once, but nothing very spectacular, let me tell you.

Q  Do you think you hit him with your fist, too?
A  Fists -- I really grabbed. You know, I got grabbing; and I thought at the time -- that, you know, I was grabbing him on the --
Q  -- Right there at that spot. We have to be real clinical with you, Captain MacDonald.
A  Right.
Q  Do you understand that? Because this brings back painful memories to you, I know. But we have to be specific as long as you can.
     We found some disturbance there, and it looked like, some kind of struggle had probably gone on. If I remember right, you just said that you were sitting down, half standing, half sitting there at the couch and struggling at one point. Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  So that would put a man between you and the coffee table, so to speak, right there or something.
A  Yeah, right.
Q  So this would probably account for the coffee table being in that position that it was in -- knocked over and moved around --
     There was something else I wanted to ask you, too. You went to the bathroom to clean yourself up a little bit. Is that right?
A  Yeah, I assume so. That seems a little ridiculous, doesn't it?
Q  No, it doesn't.
A  But, yeah.
Q  Did you check yourself to see if you were hurt?
A  Well, originally, yeah, but you know. I went to see what kind of head injury I had, 'cause I remember my head hurt like crazy. And then I went -- I knew I wasn't thinking entirely correctly, 'cause I'm always -- you know, in the emergency room. I know I'm good in the emergency room. I never, you know, lose my cool, so to speak.
Q  What kind of head injury did you have?
A  Oh, I just seemed to have a little -- a little bump on this head, and I had pain back here and a little lump back here (motioning to the back of his head). It wasn't very exciting. It wasn't what I, you know, expected.
Q  Did you check your side there?
A  Yeah, I -- that was bubbling. You know, that was --
Q  Bubbling?
A  Yeah, there was bubbles coming out of that; and I had to tell the idiot over in Womack three times. I mean, yeah -- nevertheless, and that's not -- not important.
Q  Go ahead and tell us.
A  Well, when I was in -- I kept saying I couldn't breathe, and he says, "You can breathe." So, I say, "I'm telling you I can't breathe. It hurts to breathe." And -- and I was short of breath. I knew I was breathing, you know (indicating).
     Now, that is a -- that sometimes is a -- is a -- what, you know, a symptom rather than for real. In other words, you might not be that short of breath but your body reacts as though it is. And when you get a pneumothorax, that's one of the things that happens. You breathe fast and feel as though you can't breathe in -- you can breathe.
     So, I said to him, "I can't breathe. I need -- I need oxygen. I can't breathe." And, so they were looking me over, and there was just a little trickle of blood here and a whole bunch of little puncture marks across my abdomen. And I guess we ended up with fourteen of them, or something like that; and there was a little -- a little cut here (pointing to his arm).
Q  Was this from these assailants? These people that were in the house?
A  Well, I assume so.
Q  You didn't do it yourself, did you?
A  No. So, they said to me, "Well, you know, we'll have to get an x-ray." So, we got an x-ray; and he came back and said, "The x-ray looks good." And when your chest is bubbling, you have a pneumothorax.
     I mean, if you take a breath and bubbles come out -- I mean it's very simple. Any Special Forces medic knows that and any nurse knows that, and they'll put a chest tube in. In Cape Fear they know when a chest tube has to go in before -- before you even see the patient. And I said, "Well," I said, "I don't know about you guys," I said, "But my chest hurts like hell and I can't breathe and it's bubbling." Now, that to me -- that means I have a pneumothorax with a puncture in the lung.
     In other words, it won't bubble unless the lung has been punctured. And so, Dr. Jacobson came over and he says, "Take a deep breath." And I took a deep breath and it was bubbling, and he says, "Hey, you need a chest tube." So I said, "Dick Tracy," you know; but that's beside the point. He's okay; he's a good guy.
Q  When you came out of the bathroom, you had probably gone back to your bedroom. I said "probably." Is that what you did?
A  I assume so, right.
Q  While you were at it, did you take this bathmat out of the linen closet then? There was a bathmat laying over your wife, partially.
A  A bathmat?
Q  A heavy towel or bathmat. It depends on what you want to use it for. It's from the Hilton Hotels.
A  Oh, we have some bath -- we had some towels from the Hilton Hotel. I didn't -- I don't -- I don't remember that at all.
Q  You don't remember seeing it?
A  I don't -- you know, when I covered her up, there was probably some things. There's usually a pile of laundry in that green chair right there. My wife isn't as compulsive as I am about keeping things straight, and I don't -- I specifically don't remember that, no. A bathmat or a Hilton towel, but I know I was covering her up with things. I assumed it was just night clothes that were laying there or -- and my pajama top. I don't specifically remember the Hilton towels.
     But, if it was laying there, you know, I picked it up and put it over her 'cause I was getting her warm.

Q  When you took this femoral pulse on your wife, did you remove her clothing at all or was it through her pajamas?
A  I didn't remove any clothing. It was either through the pajamas or -- or, you know, I just pulled them apart -- pulled them aside and felt for it. I don't think it was -- I didn't remove any clothing. I might have just felt through. You can feel it right through. I can feel my own.

Q  It's a big artery there, isn't it -- femoral artery?
A  Femoral artery. That's where you feel the pulses.
Q  Was there a pulse?
A  No.

Q  Captain MacDonald, can you go back over the sequence of your movements through the house for me? From the living room, through the hallway, and then what? You say you were unconscious at the end of the hallway.
A  Okay.
Q  Can you trace the sequence of your movements from that point?
A  I went into the bedroom, the first thing, saw my wife, took out the knife. That stuff, and then -- then I checked the kids before I made the first phone call, once; but it was real brief. I really -- probably only looked at them. And --
Q  Do you know which bedroom you went in first?
A  Which I went in first? Probably Kimmie's. Kimmie's, the older one. The front bedroom and went back into the -- now, I don't know if I went in the bathroom on my first or second trip. I went around this little circuit a couple of times, okay? But I think I told the guys then, too; but I'm not sure if I told them that or not.
     But I don't remember which -- which time I went in the bathroom. I went back and then I used the phone.
     (Inaudible) At one time, I at least walked into the -- laundry room and looked out the back door. I remember -- Geeze, I don't know what -- you know, what was first and what was second on these trips. I did, you know, a couple of things -- into the bathroom and then out to the back door.
     I don't -- I think it was all the second trip. I think the first trip I went into my -- that's the way it sounds to me -- sounds right.
     I went in and saw my wife; and checked the kids; came back in the master bedroom and used the phone. And then I had -- I was getting on my hands and knees and getting short of breath. I kept thinking that "I'm not doing anything that I'm supposed to be doing, and no one knows about it." And then I realized I hadn't checked -- and I didn't know if -- if, you know, there was any pulse or anything.
     And so, I checked my wife and I went into -- probably to Kimmie's bedroom first again, and Kristy's bedroom.

Q  What kind of pulse did you check for? Was it the wrist or femoral?
A  A Well, the easiest, usually -- usually you feel in an injured patient -- you know, I usually feel the carotid first 'cause the peripheral ones sometimes -- sometimes go into spasm; and if they have low blood pressure, you can't feel it anywhere.
     So, I usually check this -- these, so I'm sure I checked that first. It's just instinctive. And --
Q  I'm sorry; I interrupted you.
A  Well, I don't know -- well, I really don't know if I checked the femorals on both side of the kids, quite honestly. I probably checked here (pointing to the throat) and picked up their wrist and possibly checked the femoral, but I'm not sure.
     So, then I was standing in the middle -- middle of the hallway after this kind of second trip, and I didn't know what to do. I kept saying to myself, you know, "What -- what comes now?" And I remember I -- it flashed through my mind to go next door to my idiot neighbor, but I realized that would be futile, and --

Q  Why was that?
A  Well, our neighbors are -- she's the kind of a lady that sits in her window with binoculars and watches the girl across the street undress and stuff like that, you know. And she comes over and she says, "Now, don't leave your windows open because there's a lot of rapists and people around here."
     We were at a cocktail party one night, and -- and she said that and everyone stopped. And I said to her -- so I was kind of pulling her chain. So I said, "Well, how -- how do you know that that people look in windows?"
     I mean -- you know, you see types of people and right away this woman had -- so, she said, "Well, 'cause I see her every night. The blonde across the street." And I says, "How do you see her every night?" She said, "I go in my window and watch." And I said, "Why do you do that?" And she said, I swear to God, she said, "Because," you know, "it's unnatural for a girl to undress with the blinds up. And I just want to" -- you know, "I just want to make sure I know what's going on in the neighborhood."
     But that's beside the point. So that's the type of person that -- that, you know, I just -- I said, "Shall I go next door or should I try to call again?" And I decided I should try to call again.
Q  How did you maneuver your way down to the phone the second time?
A  How did I maneuver my way down?
Q  Yes, how did you get there? Were you on your hands and knees getting there, or were you --
A  No, I really -- I don't think I really ever like walked anywhere on my hands and knees. I got down on my hands and knees a couple times in the hallway to breathe and once next to my wife. I probably walked down and --
Q  Did you fall at any time?
A  I don't remember it. I don't remember it. And I picked up the phone. And then after I talked to this Sergeant Smith, or whatever his name was, on the phone; and he said that they were coming ASAP. Then I remember I started going back down the hall again.
     Now, look, to be honest with you, I might have -- like I might have gone in the bath -- if it's important. I don't see how it can be important -- but I might have gone into the bathroom on this trip. But I don't think so; I think it was when I was going through the bedrooms the second time.
     And I remember starting -- you know, I started to go down the hall and really, the next thing that's clear is that this MP was -- MP or medic, I don't know -- was giving me respiration -- artificial respiration, which I apparently didn't need.

Q  You came to where he was doing it?
A  Right.
Q  Is that it?
A  Right.
Q  Yeah, well, it's kind of important, Captain MacDonald, because we have to eliminate people from what you did -- what you did from other people, the traces that were left in the house, you know.
A  Right.
Q  That is why I asked you about the bathmat or towel -- Hilton Hotel towel -- because it's important whether you put it there or somebody else put it there.
A  Gee, I can't -- I honestly don't -- all I remember is doing myself specifically was my own -- taking my own thing off the first time in -- taking my own pajama top off my arms and stuff and kind of laying it across her --
     And, you know, kind of a stupid attempt to --
Q  You didn't move it again after that?
A  I don't think so, no.
Q  It was found there.
A  It was?
Q  Yes.

Q  If there -- say, this bathmat or towel. Which do you want to call it? A towel or a bathmat?
A  What? A towel. I mean the Hilton Hotel -- oh, I know what you mean. It looks like it's a towel, a terry cloth; it's a bathmat thing. It's from the hotel.
Q  Yeah.
A  No, I don't remember doing that. I'm just saying I remember what it is now.
Q  If it were across your -- say, your wife's abdomen, you would have noticed it in taking her femoral pulse?
A  Geeze, I think I would have. It would have been hard to miss. You know, this is a pretty excited time and I -- I'm almost sure I would have noticed if a towel was across her.

Q  Well, this towel was laying right across her abdomen, the abdomen and upper thighs area.
A  Well, then I must have -- either I put it there or the medic put it there. But I -- maybe I did as I was covering my wife. I really don't --
Q  I don't want to talk you into anything.
A  No, no, that's -- I know. You see, that's what happens now.
Q  I don't want to do --
A  Everyone -- everyone -- I mean I've talked -- well, only -- really, only two people know the whole story aside from you people.
     But in telling them, some things, you know, sound funny after a while; and I'm not sure what -- you know, whether -- like one time I remember, Ron Harrison, who got involved with this thing and was around all the time, he -- he heard most of it, and he asked me a couple of things about it. I remember when I told him, that my mother said it wasn't exactly what I, you know --
Q  Might have said to her?
A  Right. And I, you know -- she -- in other words, they reacted a little different. And so I really don't know how many times I've been talked into it -- of course, the newspaper had such -- they had me saying things that -- everyone said to me, "Well, now, they -- they kept saying, "Hit him again" and stuff like that.
     I'm not even -- I'm not sure. I don't think I ever heard that. I don't think I ever heard that.
Q  Well, we're in the same track because I haven't read the newspapers about it, so I'm not -- I'm not coming into this with any preconceived ideas about what's been said or not said because I don't know. So, this is why we're -- we're asking you to be as specific as you can.
A  Right.

Q  These -- the male assailants, did they make any (inaudible) sounds or words?
A  I don't know. I don't remember.

Q  By the way, how did they act? What -- what was their motivation?
A  What was their motivation?
Q  Yeah. What do you think?
A  What do I think?
Q  Yeah.
A  How many times have I thought about this? I can't -- the only thing I can possibly come up with is that this was -- and I'm not a believer in the faith. I mean, I just -- It just seems to me that it had to be a chance thing.
     You know, the "ifs" are what's killing me now. If -- if -- if I had checked that back door maybe. I don't know -- even know if it was pried or whether it was open. Usually it's locked.
Q  It's normally locked?
A  Oh, yeah. And we're not real strict about that. Like my mother had never locked a door in her whole life. And so, I'm always real casual about it; but Colette usually locks the door.
     And sometimes I know, like late at night, if I get up and use the little bathroom and just check the door, it will be open. The kids have gone in and out during the day when she was doing wash in there and didn't bother locking it again.
     So, if I had checked the darn door maybe at 2:00 o'clock when I went to bed, who's to say, you know. I don't know.
Q  You didn't check it?
A  No. Normally, I don't -- you know, I don't have a round and check doors and windows and stuff like that. I never even think like that.
Q  What were you doing before Colette went to bed? What -- what transpired in the house that evening? She went to school.
A  Right.
Q  Did you have any -- any work that night or hobbies or anything that you did outside the house?
A  No, the kids and I were lying on the living room floor watching TV; and, when they went to bed, I just read for a while. Nothing -- I think I was reading one of my mysteries, a Mike Hammer mystery, I think.
Q  What time did Colette come home?
A  She got home about -- it was a little late. Usually, she's home about ten after nine. I think it was about twenty-five to ten, or something. I don't know. She had to drop off a -- one of the girls in the class or something. I'm not --
Q  Were the girls still up?
A  No I think they'd gone to bed. It's late I know; but Kimmy -- Kimmie stayed up late with me.
Q  So what -- what happened? What transpired on this evening?
A  Nothing spectacular. I mean, she came home and probably had a -- usually, my wife would have a -- a little brandy or -- or one liqueur or something while we sat there. You know, it was our time of the day sort of, and we just usually sat there and watched TV or read or something in the living room together.
     That's all I remember. I mean, I don't -- nothing spectacular happened.
Q  Did you have a drink a drink that night?
A  I don't remember, honestly. I don't -- I usually didn't by myself. You know, once in a while my wife did by herself; but I never did by myself. I might have had a liqueur with her, but I don't remember. And if it was, it was a -- you know, a Kahlua or something like that, one of those sweet liqueurs.
     But I don't remember having one, so I probably didn't.
Q  Do you know what time this happened? This is what I want, to build events here --
A  Right.
Q  -- if I can. Now, she came home at twenty-five to ten?
A  Right. Roughly then.
Q  And the kids were probably in bed.
A  Right. I remember she came home a little late because she had missed half of -- half the show that's -- the show that's on at 9:00 o'clock. It isn't Tom Jones. It's some show that's on Mon -- a Monday night at 9:00 o'clock.
Q  Glen Campbell?
A  Glen Campbell? One -- we either watch Glen Campbell or Johnny Cash or Tom Jones. Those three shows during the week, so one of those three, whichever is on Monday night.
     I remember telling her that she had missed the best part of it, and she said she had to drop someone off or something. "I stopped at Seven-Eleven," or something, and that was it. We didn't do anything unusual.
Q  Did you watch any of the late shows?
A  Ah -- probably not. I think just up to the news. I turned it off. I usually don't watch TV, except the sports or those three shows I was telling you.
Q  Well. Try to think. Try to think about this. Did you watch the Johnny --
A  Oh, yeah. I was watching the Johnny Carson --
Q  Johnny Carson?
A  That's right.
Q  Did you watch it?
A  Yeah, I was watching Johnny Carson. That's right.
Q  Was Colette there with you?
A  No. She started with me. That's -- that's right. She started it with me and she went to bed. She didn't finish. I finished watching the Johnny Carson show and then -- she was already in bed by that time it was over. She just watched the beginning.
Q  Any particular reason why she didn't stay there with you?
A  She was pregnant and she -- she's getting more sleepy -- more sleep when she's pregnant.
Q  Did -- did she have any problem sleeping?
A  No.
Q  There was some talk earlier about her having taken some medication of some kind.
A  Bendectin for nausea.
Q  What was it again?
A  Bendectin.
Q  Bendectin.
A  Right. It's just a nausea pill for pregnant women. She took one every night.
Q  Before going to bed?
A  Right.

Q  What's the major component? What's in it?
A  I think a Meclazine derivative. I don't know. It's one of the safe ones for pregnant women, and all the O.B. men here give it and that's what I used for her. I think it is a Meclazine derivative, which doesn't mean anything to me.
Q  How many of these did she use?

Q  Would she have taken anything else?
A  I don't think so. Now, I usually -- sometimes, if she -- if she couldn't sleep, she'd take a Bendryl, which is an antihistamine. It's really for rashes and hives, but it's safe and it makes people a little sleepy. And she might have -- she might have taken one of those, but I didn't know about it if she did 'cause we usually had some in a small medicine cabinet for that reason, 'cause it's a safe sleeping pill.
Q  She might have, but you don't know if she did.
A  Right.
Q  Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  Okay. Well, she went to bed. What -- what time did she go to bed?
A  Well, probably 11:30 -- no, 12:00 o'clock 'cause I remember she started watching Johnny -- now that you mention it -- the Johnny Carson show with me.
Q  Do you know what time that comes on -- midnight?
A  No, it comes on, I think, at 11:30; and she watched the beginning of it. And I think she was probably in bed by 12:00.
Q  She was in bed by 12:00.
A  Right.
Q  Now, had she changed clothes prior to going to bed?
A  Yeah. She always comes out and sits around with me in -- in her pajamas. I mean, I say "yeah." I -- you know, this is just 'cause she did it every night. I don't remember her walking in and changing clothes 'cause I was sitting there reading. Like all husbands do -- they forget to notice a lot of things, but she always came out and sat down and had -- usually had a liqueur and then go to bed. That was her routine.
Q  So she was in bed by midnight?
A  Right.
Q  And maybe she took a Bendic -- what was this?
A  Bendectin, B-E-N-D-E-C-T-I-N.
Q  Bendectin, that, you known about --
A  Right.
Q  -- Because she took it every night?
A  Right.
Q  And she might have taken a Bendryl?
A  Right.
Q  She might have had a liqueur and probably did?
A  Right.
Q  So she went to bed. Did you finish watching the Johnny Cash show?
A  Johnny Carson, right.
Q  Johnny Carson, I'm sorry.
A  Right.
Q  And then what did you do?
A  I read my Mike Hammer mystery.
Q  What else did you do?
A  Nothing.
Q  Did you wash dishes?
A  Yeah, I did. I washed the dishes for her.
Q  Okay. I'm not sharpshooting you now.
A  No, no, no. I understand that. But that's right, I did. I -- once in a while -- she hated dishes. The only thing she hated more was ironing; and she left them, she'd feel terrible the next day 'cause she's left them. And she usually leaves them again until night, and they'd just pile up. So every once in a while, when I'm feeling good, I do them for her; and she thinks I'm a big hero the next morning. So, I did them. That's right.
Q  Did you do anything else? Did you listen to any music or anything like that, or did you read?
A  Now, I usually played some records when I was reading light stuff, and this was light stuff. They asked me that in the hospital. I don't -- I don't remember playing anything. When I'm lazy, I just put the FM on; and I probably had the FM on. I don't remember playing any records specifically.
Q  Did you get up and turn it off before you went to sleep?
A  Yeah. I mean, I usually didn't go to sleep with it on. I fell asleep on the floor often with it on; but when I go to sleep on the couch or in the bed, I turn it off.
     As a matter of fact, it was FM because I remember I had to get up several times to get a station that kept fading out. My thing that's supposed to stick the channel in wasn't working, on my $700 set. And I got up several times and had to get a new station because it'd keep fading. That's right, so I was -- I was listening to FM.
Q  And not records?
A  And not records, right.
Q  I'd like to get down to some other things here that might -- might be a little bit more close to home. I'm sorry, but I have to ask you about them.
     And that's these -- we found some weapons and some things that we think were used around the house, and we need to know if they're yours because they're -- if they come from your house.
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  We must know if -- because if they don't come from your house, we have to know where they did come from. You understand that?
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  Okay. Now, we found a -- this -- this knife you took out of your wife's chest is curve-bladed. In fact, it was -- I don't think it's a manufactured knife. I think it was curved because somebody used it to pry something open or stepped on it or something along that line.
     Does this seem like something you might have had around the house? A paring knife.
A  With a curved blade?
Q  Yeah.

Q  A bent blade.

Q  Bent or curved.
A  No. I mean, not -- not that I know of, no. I didn't know of anything like that. It would stand out if it was, you know --
Q  Let me show you a picture.
A  All right.
     It doesn't -- you know, my wife had some paring knives. I don't recognize this one in particular, especially that would have been -- I know we didn't have one lying around, because, you know, I would throw something like that out. I wouldn't -- Geeze, my wife would keep it forever; but I wouldn't. And if we had a knife with a bent blade, I don't know about it. I didn't see it, and I don't recognize this.
Q  You say your wife had some around.
A  Well, sure. She would -- you know, she'd cook in the kitchen, and she had plenty of knives lying around.
Q  How many -- how many paring knives did she have that you know?
A  Oh, a couple. She had one with a funny two points on the end of the blade that -- and I could never figure out what it was for -- with a serrated edge. Not a serrated, a wavy -- and she had a long one with one of those wavy things, and she had a couple little -- you know little paring knives.
Q  Well, I mean specifically paring knives. You say a couple. Might she have had three or four or --
A  Well, you know, I'd just grab a steak knife in the drawer. I -- I don't know, quite honestly, because one of her drawers she just kept all full of junk.
     And -- no, not three or four. She -- she probably had this white-handled one. There's a long white-handled one and probably one or two others of the steak knife type.
     Usually -- I usually went and used a steak knife. I never could find a paring knife.
Q  There was another one that we found. That would be this one here (shows picture). You see, now, that's pretty distinctive. It says "Old Hickory" on there.
A  I don't know this one. I would have seen the "Old Hickory" sign if we had that around. I don't know that one.
     How big is that? Seventeen centimeters?
Q  Yeah.
A  No, I don't -- well, I didn't see any with an "Old Hickory" sign anyway.
Q  Well, it's almost seven inches long. The blade's three inches.
A  I don't know.
Q  Do you -- can you specifically -- can you say that it is not from your house? Let me ask you that.
A  Yeah, unless she got a new knife or something that I didn't know about, but I don't think -- I never saw that.
     And, usually, you know, I had a rough idea of what was there and I -- I would have seen a knife with "Old Hickory" on it. I didn't see that; I never saw that. So I can say that that's not from my house.
Q  Did you -- you did some building around there, didn't you?
A  Right.
Q  Some shelves and that sort of thing.
A  You saw my abortions.
Q  Didn't you -- didn't you build a shed for your pony out there too?
A  I didn't build the whole thing. Most of it was there. I renovated it a little bit, right.
Q  Is that the one that sits nearest to the drive?
A  The little one in the pasture. It's just for one horse, and it has a low doorway -- a low doorway for the pony, right.
Q  Yeah, I guess that's the one. Just right close to the house there, all that business out there is the barn?
A  No, no. If you have a sheet of paper, I'll show you where it is. You mean there where the horse is kept?
Q  Yeah.
A  Okay. All right. You come in the -- this is the fence. You come in the driveway this way. Here's the guy's trailer.
Q  Right.
A  Here's his house.
Q  Okay.
A  The first pasture on the right, its right here, and the shed's here. This is the guy's barn.
Q  Yeah, okay. That's -- that's the one.
A  Right.
Q  So you had some scrap lumber around there and --
A  Right.
Q  We think that -- that this club you originally thought was a baseball bat or something might have come from around the house or something like that. In fact, I'll show it to you. I don't know if pieces of wood will mean anything to you from a photograph, but there is -- well, there's paint on it. In fact, we had the idea that you might have used this around the house.
A  I never saw it.
Q  People use pieces of wood to pry open doors --
A  Right.
Q  -- And windows --
A  Right.
Q  -- For one thing and another.
A  I don't, you know, recognize this. Now, I had -- I always had some extra lumber around in the little well outside the back of my house, but I don't -- how long is this? One -- it's about three feet?
Q  Yeah, uh-huh (yes), about three feet.
A  Not specifically, no, I don't recognize this.
Q  Well, think about the stock you used to make this -- this shelving from. There was a --
A  What size lumber is this?
Q  It's about one by -- one and five-eighths by one and a half.
A  A two by two.
Q  Right.
A  I didn't have any two by two's. I used four -- two by four's that I took out of the old third med supply area. When we broke it up, we -- they were going to burn it all and send it -- you know, send it to the trash, and I just used my two by four's and cut them down.
Q  Did you use the -- did you make the shelving in Kimmie's closet?
A  Right.
Q  Down below there?
A  Right.
Q  There's a piece of wood there very similar to this, very similar.
A  Maybe it was around. I -- I, you know, don't specifically recognize it from this -- you know, from the photograph.
Q  Did you have an ice pick?
A  I don't think I had any two by two's, and this is a two by two. I -- I know I didn't have any two by two's specifically cut that way. There was four by four's, I think, in scraps. Two by four's and just scraps of lumber.
Q  Did you have an ice pick around the house? Is that your ice pick (shows photograph)?
A  No, I didn't have an ice pick.
Q  You did not have an ice pick around the house?
A  Not that I know of, no.

Q  Did you go into the -- the drawers with the silverware that morning?
A  Any time during that morning? Oh, you mean the morning that it happened?
Q  Yes.
A  Not that I remember.
Q  Did you clean yourself up in the sink there -- the kitchen sink or anything there?
A  I don't think so. I remember washing my hands off, you know, in my compulsive manner. But I -- I thought it was in the bathroom where I was doing that from.

Q  It looks like it was in the bathroom.
A  I don't think I used the kitchen sink at all. I used the phone in there, and maybe when I was talking on the phone --

Q  What is the deepest you went into the kitchen?
A  Christ, I don't know. I was just -- I probably just stayed there to talk on the phone. I -- that's all I remember, just talking on the phone.
Q  If we can drift back again, you say during the initial assault you heard screams. Were they screams? Were they screams or were they --
A  Words?
Q  Yeah.
A  Yeah.
Q  Like what?
A  My wife was saying, "Jeff, why are they doing this to me?"
Q  Were you still on the couch then?
A  Right.
Q  Did these screams continue, or did they cut out?
A  I -- I don't know. They asked me in the hospital, and I don't -- I can't, you know -- I don't remember any cut-off time specifically. They could or could not have continued them, you know, while I was wrestling. I really don't remember once this -- really the struggle was on. I remember sitting up and hearing them. I remember hearing my wife say, you know, "Jeff, Jeff, why are they doing this to me? Help me." And I heard her screaming, and I think I heard Kristy -- Kimmie, the older girl, said, "Daddy" -- saying "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy."
Q  You fought your way to the entrance to the hallway?
A  Yeah, you asked me that fifteen times, right.
Q  Could you see down the hallway? Did you see anything going on down at the end of the hallway where you were at?
A  No.

Q  What lights were on in the house? Kitchen light?
A  Kitchen light was on. I left that on. And usually, we left the -- the bathroom light on -- the big bathroom in the hallway so it's shining -- so, the hallway was a little lit for the kids; and that was -- I think that was on, too -- when they woke up in the night, and (inaudible).
Q  You said that when you woke up, you could see your wife.
A  Well, I could see -- yeah.
Q  You could see in there?
A  Right.
Q  You could see your wife. Was that because that light was on in there?
A  Well, I -- I didn't say that I could see my wife when I woke up.
Q  Well, again, I'm not -- I'm not --
A  No.
Q  -- sharpshooting. I just want to know.
A  When I woke up, the first thing I thought of was -- you know, I'm ashamed to say -- myself -- I mean, when I woke up, I said, "Christ, I'm going into shock."
     And then I realized that everything was quiet, and I start -- you know, I knew -- I started to remember that I heard screaming, so I was -- I really didn't even like look ahead. I -- I went into the bedroom and then I saw my wife.
     In other words, I didn't lay on the floor and look up, if that's what you mean, and see her. I remember as I got up -- I was lying there and I was thinking, "Christ, I'm going into shock." And -- see, that's the first thing that hits -- hits me when I was chilling. You know, my teeth were actually -- literally chattering.
     And the light was on, and -- it isn't real bright when just the bathroom light is on.
Q  Was it the overhead light that was on?
A  I don't think so. I think it was just the bathroom light. Now, you know, maybe I turned the overhead light on. I don't remember.
     But when I went into the bedroom and -- in others words, I -- obviously, as I got into the bedroom, you know, I could see my wife well. (Inaudible)
     But I didn't -- you know, I don't remember lying in there and looking up and seeing my wife in the bedroom.
Q  Can you give us a better description of these people that you saw?
A  I wished I had a Polaroid. You know, this -- all I can say is everyone seemed moderate height. You know, this is ridiculous, I know, to you; but everyone seemed normal -- height. The middle -- the middle guy, I remember, was shorter. Not abnormally shorter, but the middle person was the shortest of the three people.
     Now, again, this is so quick that it might have just been the way he was standing there or he was bent forward. He seemed shorter than the other two. Maybe five-eight instead of five-ten, something like that.
     I don't really remember anything distinctive. I don't remember long hair on these people, and this is a little hard for me to figure out. I don't understand, you know, who, why or what was there and for what reason; and if they were on, you know, LSD, or something -- they're supposed to be hippies. They're not always. I mean I've seen a lot of clean-cut Special Forces guys.
Q  How do -- how do hippies react -- not hippies, but people. How do people react when they are under the influence of LSD?
A  Well, anybody --
Q  Are they capable of carrying out something like this? Coming to your house, out of all these other houses. As you say, it's a --
A  Well, now you're getting -- now, see, you're getting to why they came to my house. If they --
Q  Well, I'm not interested in why they came to your house just for the moment. Let's say it was a matter of fate, okay?
A  All right.
Q  It had to be some house --
A  Right.
Q  Why not yours? Why not --
A  Right. Okay. All right. In other words, can they do this?
Q  Can they carry this out, all this business?
A  I've seen many patients that I felt were -- now, you don't know always know what they've taken.
Q  Well, let's say LSD for the moment.
A  Okay. Well, again, now, a person will come in the emergency room and say he has taken LSD and he's having an acute anxiety reaction, paranoid, and he's, you know, seeing people that he's afraid or anything. That could be LSD; it could be speed; it could be mesc -- you know, any of the -- any of the amphetamine-type things -- or mescaline.
     And very often the kids don't know what they've taken, so you have no way of knowing. But they always say LSD.
     And like I treated one two nights ago at Cape Fear, and this guy was -- not two nights ago -- last week, and this guy was capable of anything, I'm sure. He was extremely agitated and wild; and all you had to do was move and, you know, he'd jump up and he was very paranoid. You know, people were attacking him and he had to defend himself.
Q  Do most -- okay, let's branch away from that for just a minute. The people that are taking amphetamines, uppers --
A  Right.
Q  We've got four of them now that we know about in your house. They're on something, we think. This girl was talking about acid --
A  LSD, right.
Q  It could be, as you say, anything. Could be peyote buttons for all we know, right?
A  Right. Well, I don't know what that means. They'll -- yeah, I've heard about them.
Q  They're excited; they're doing something that's emotionally exciting to them. They'd be jumping around wild, wouldn't they? There'd be a lot of hyperaction here. Is this correct?
A  Yeah, you -- most of the -- I agree with you. Most of the people I've seen on these drugs, you know, they don't -- they're not steady and cool by any means. Usually, they're paranoid and anxious and --
Q  When they do something, it's sort of in a frenzied kind of way, isn't it?
A  Well, I don't know. That's kind of a -- I don't know. I mean, you know, this guy's walked out of Womack ninth floor window. Apparently, just walked out the window. He wasn't in any frenzy. He just -- he was going to go for walk.
Q  No, he jumped out. He was very frightened, and --
A  Was he?
Q  He thought the doctor was --
A  That -- well --
Q  And he jumped out the window.
A  That sounds more like LSD, right.
     Okay -- yeah, usually, you don't look normal. I mean, anyone can tell when someone -- not anyone -- but almost anyone can tell when someone's having a bad reaction, right.
Q  Okay, this is the point. This is why I'm asking you for your opinion on this.
A  Right.
Q  You woke up, Captain MacDonald, and you saw four people and you hear your wife somewhere.
A  Right.
Q  You heard your daughter, right?
A  Right.
Q  There must have been at least two more.
A  Well, this is what I -- this is what I can't figure out. Now I've gone over this hundreds of times in my own mind, you know, literally all night long many nights; and I -- I don't -- there's so many unanswered questions to me.
     If they -- I assume they came in that back door. They had to come through there -- you know, through my wife's bedroom -- our bedroom. And I don't understand why, you know, by the time they got to me, that I still heard screaming. Or were there more people involved than four?
Q  If there was this -- four people are a lot of people. Four strangers --
A  I know.
Q  -- in a house your size are a lot of people.
A  I know.
Q  Six, a minimum of six --
A  I know.
Q  -- or that much more, and there should be --
A  I know.
Q  -- in my experience, his experience and his, there should be a mess in your house. Not --
A  Right.
Q  -- not a living day-to-day mess. I don't mean that.
A  No, I know what you mean.
Q  There should be busted furniture and broken mirrors and bashed-in walls and --
A  Oh, well --
Q  -- lots of this. There should be lots of --
A  You people have more experience than I do, but I wouldn't normally -- I mean I wouldn't necessarily expect that, if someone is attacked when they're sleeping, I -- you know. You might not get broken --
Q  -- heavy things knocked off the table. You know, it's very -- there aren't things out of place.
A  Well, I don't know. What --
Q  Does this suggest anything to you? Like maybe this group of people --
A  Knew the inside of the house?
Q  -- either knew the inside of the house or weren't --
A  Or weren't -- yeah, were being careful, sure. Well, this was, you know, brought up to me before, and I don't know.
     The in -- the incongruous thing to me are a couple things. First of all, I heard screaming; and I would assume if they came in that way, they would have done these things as they came down. And I should have been awakened earlier, even before they got to me. That's one thing.
     And the second thing is the number of people involved. If -- you know, when I woke up and I heard screaming -- now, maybe she was already wounded. Maybe -- you know, maybe they assumed she was dead. Okay, just assume that; and then they left and came down the hallway. And then, you know, she was able to start screaming. That's -- that's what I thought. That's one possibility.
     And the other thing is -- was -- these people seemed, you know -- in the little while that I saw them, they didn't -- they weren't hyper or anything. Now, that's a drug reaction sometimes, though. I mean some of these people have very dull affects.
     And, as a matter of fact, when you interview people, it's one of the things you look for -- people that don't seem to get any rise either way. You know, just sort of plod along.
     But if you take an amphetamine's or a bad LSD reaction, they shouldn't be apathetic. They -- they should be, you know, psychotic in nature and a -- a little wilder.
     So there you are -- those are the three things that I can't figure out in my own mind.
Q  Well, the other -- the other problem I have, immediate problem, is a motive.
A  Right.
Q  We've got to establish a motive for this thing, and --
A  Right.
Q  -- I don't see one. There's nothing missing from your house, not even -- not even vandalism --
A  Right.
Q  -- Captain MacDonald, there's nothing missing. You have a lot of things in your home that people would like to steal.
A  They were nice, I know.
Q  Nice to take, no matter what their reason was, if there was. Do you know what I mean?
A  Well, yeah. They could have come in for -- for that reason and then realizing what they'd done, just left. But it's -- I know, I agree with you. It's very likely. I don't know.
Q  Can you give us any help along this line at all?
A  Geeze, I wish I could. I just can't imagine that I've ever offended anyone enough -- unless, they're psychotic, you know; or in other words, an abnormal response -- to have something like this to happen.
Q  And then one person commits at least five others to his cause.
A  I -- right. Other people and to -- and to have no -- to no one break down, you know, in the case. No one come forth and feel bad or read the newspapers and say, "Jesus, I know of," you know, "I know some people and I saw them Tuesday morning and they were all bloody," or something.
     So, I agree with you. I don't know. I'd sleep a little easier, I'll tell you that.
Q  Captain, you have a lot of -- a lot of drugs in your house.
A  I know.
Q  Why? Why do you have a lot of drugs there?
A  Oh, I just got something or everything in case anyone ever asks me and -- Johnny-on-the-spot. You know, very often I'd suture people; and I took care of half the neighborhood, you know, and -- nothing there was controlled.
     I was careful about that, you know. I didn't have any controlled drugs or anything like that. Everything was stuff there wouldn't be any problem with and no one should be after for any reason.
     And I just had -- like, for instance, if we were going on a camping trip, I was all ready to make up a nice little M3A kit with that -- you know, all the possibilities involved; but that was the only reason.
     All this came about when the third disbanded, and they had boxes and boxes of stuff they were just going to burn. And I thought that was stupid, so I just took a couple bottles of everything and was going to make up my own aid kit, you know, for my car and camping and stuff.
     But I know, it looked a little -- a little excessive, I'm sure.
Q  It looked more than a little excessive. It looked real excessive, frankly. I'm being more than frank with you as you're being frank with me, I hope.
A  Yeah, well --
Q  And we understand that you were sending these things to people, too.
A  Right, to my in-laws.
Q  Okay, were you sending anything to anybody around here that would suggest --
A  Huh-uh (No).
Q  -- To someone that --
A  The only people I -- the only people I did that for was my mother -- my grandmother and Mildred Kassab, my mother-in-law, and her sister Helen -- Helen Madison.
Q  What kind of drugs were you sending?
A  Oh, thyroid medicine, diuretics -- to make them lose fluid. Quinamine -- it's a heart pill. My grandmother has Parkinson's. She was taking Parkinson's pills. And high blood pressure pills. My -- my moth -- my mother-in-law was on diet pills, but that's controlled in the Army so I haven't got many through the Army for her.
Q  What kind of pills was --
A  Amphetamine sulphate, 15 milligrams. But, you know, you got to sign your life away in the Army so I -- she's had to get her own since I got in the Army.
     Let's see, high blood pressure, Parkinson's -- that's it basically. A couple different types of high blood pressure. My aunt takes one type. My aunt -- Colette's aunt, Helen Madison, takes one type; and Mildred takes another type. My grandmother takes another type, so it involved a lot. And my mother-in-law takes a hormone, estrogen.
Q  Most of the pill heads I know --
A  What's that?
Q  -- pill heads -- take anything. I had one guy tell me, "if I don't know what it is, I take eight and I get something out of it, either an upper or a downer." That's the way he thinks. (Inaudible) -- How I met the gentleman.
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  (Inaudible) Ornaids, as I recall. He got a reaction. I don't know what it did for him, but he was happy
A  Pretty hard from Ornaids. It makes you a little sleepy.
Q  So, again, this -- this points back to these people being in the house, perhaps with --
A  Ulterior motive.
Q  (Inaudible)
A  Yeah. Not many people knew I had that. Only a couple. People knew that -- you know, that I had a -- so far as my neighbors, knew that -- whenever she needed pills, I gave them to her.
     But I -- I don't think she knew that I had them in the house. She probably thought I got them out of the dispensary at the time -- stuff like that.
     But I can't think of anyone, except one guy who's in Vietnam that -- he brought his girlfriend over one time, and I went through the drug collection trying to find something for her psoriasis.
Q  Was he there?
A  Yeah.
Q  Who was that?
A  Geeze, I can't remember. Let me see now. He's Hoffman. Larry Hoffman. Played quarterback for our football team.
Q  Where might he be now?
A  He's on his way to Vietnam.
Q  So he is still in the service?
A  Right.
Q  Is he -- is he a medical officer?
A  No, he was in the -- either civil affairs or psyops, something like that. Intelligence -- one of the ancillary things for the third.
     And he brought his -- after a football game one night, he brought his girlfriend over and she a reaction on her hands. So I took out -- I had an old box of -- a big box in the bottom of my closet. They were all samples that we had brought from Chicago, as a matter of fact -- Chicago to New Jersey to here.
     And I went through the whole thing and couldn't find any. And I think he was standing there with me. Probably didn't know what I had, but -- you know, I told him they were just samples. There was vitamins and garbage, you know.
     But he's certainly straight. He's no -- no pill head and --
Q  What about his girlfriend?
A  They were living in a trailer then on Bragg Boulevard, and she went away. She went to Wisconsin or Maryland, or someplace.
Q  Do you remember her name?
A  It wasn't his girlfriend. It was his wife -- his wife, right.
Q  It wasn't his girlfriend; it was --
A  No, it was his wife. Right. I remember her now -- Mrs. Hoffman.
Q  (Inaudible) Larry Hoffman?
A  Right. Now, some of the guys in the unit, of course, know what I took out of the third, you know. They -- they gave them to me, but --
Q  You would recognize them?
A  What's that?
Q  You would recognize them?
A  Oh, yeah, anyone that I'd worked with, sure. I didn't see anyone I knew. You know, my supply officer and Captain Warren and people I worked in the office with who knew that I took them.
Q  How about the enlisted people that you've worked with?
A  Well, like I said, the only people that would know were the -- were the supply people. Medical supply, not S4. Medical supply for the third because it was right -- we were in the same office -- same building; and so they'd bring it to me and put it on my desk, and I'd put it in a box next to my desk and take it home with me that night, you know.
Q  Yeah.
A  But, I'd see him all the time and that's, you know -- he's working in the center now, Sergeant Spears, but he just -- he kept telling me the CID was going to get me because I had O.D. colored knapsacks. But they were going to burn them and I said, "It was ridiculous."
     As a matter of fact, he came to see me after -- after this was over and he said, "I'll -- I'll bet you opened a few eyes when they went into my storage shed," that's in the back because I had an, you know, O.D. medical chest and those knapsacks.
Q  Yeah, well, it -- it was an eye opener.
A  It sure was.
Q  Captain MacDonald, there are some other things that we found here in the house -- some other questioning we have. We'll present them to you; and if you can explain some of these things, fine. If you can't, we'll just have to worry about that. I want to get -- want to get with you on this thing because this is -- this is like money in the bank to you. This is real important to you.
     For example, let's start with one thing. This pajama top you were wearing, okay? Now, let me back up just a little and give you some depth here -- some background.
     We have a team of laboratory technicians in your house for five days. These people are very thorough and they're very professional. We gave them the benefit of all our experience --
A  Right.
Q  -- but not knowing anything about what might have happened in there, as far as what you saw or didn't see or --
A  Right.
Q  -- whether you were there or not. We just took everything we could find of an apparent evidentiary value.
A  Okay.
Q  All right? So, when I say something is so, I want you to know that I'm -- I'm right.
A  Okay.
Q  If I'm not right, if I don't know I'm right, I won't say it.
A  All right.
Q  Okay? Now, again, your jacket.
A  Pajama top?
Q  Pajama top. Now, we've taken this thing and we've examined it under laboratory conditions. We know what it's made of. We know what kind of fiber is in it. We know what kind of threads are in it. We know how -- that it's old.
A  Right.
Q  It's been around a long time. We know that it hasn't been repaired to the extent that there are foreign threads in it. That's --
A  Right.
Q  Okay, now, we have found fibers and threads in various places in the house. And one of the most puzzling things to me, personally, is that we found fibers from this jacket under Colette's body -- strung out under her body -- and I'm interested in how they came to be there.
A  Shaken off. I don't know. Maybe -- do these things shed? Are they laying all around the house? I mean I don't know.
Q  No, it doesn't.
A  You mean they're big fibers?
Q  Yeah.
A  Not --
Q  Not microscopic.

Q  Not a fuzz.
A  Not a fuzz?
Q  No. It would be fibers and threads.
A  I don't know.

Q  Okay.
A  I can't answer that.
Q  All right, moving along a little bit further with this thing. Now, how does it happen that the pocket from this pajama top has a little bit of your wife's blood on it, very, very minute thing; but it's laying in the bedroom. The rest of it -- of the jacket is soaked with her blood --
A  I laid it -- I laid it over her.
Q  -- and with Kimmie's blood. Now, how does that happen?
A  Well, I'm sure I had blood all over my hands from everyone, when I was checking for pulses and stuff.
Q  Yeah.
A  And well, in fact, you see, my wife, I -- I don't know how much -- Jesus, I don't know. If I had blood on my hands and I went back and touched this -- this pajama top, could it have gotten on it from that way?
Q  This would contaminate it to a certain extent.
A  I mean, I had blood all over me, you know. I mean I checked -- I know I checked carotid pulses in everyone, and I'm sure I got some blood on me from everyone. And I went back to see my wife again.
Q  That would seem to be logical, you know.
A  Right.
Q  Okay.

Q  Well, we're talking about the pocket that is completely separated and apart from the rest of the shirt.

Q  Let me show it to you, if I can. Like I say, this is important to you and I want you to --
A  Okay.
Q  -- understand what we're talking about. Now, we've got a -- got you pajama top. (Shaw draws picture of the top.) A very crude, rude drawing, but that's the way it is. And this is the front of it. Kind of a v-neck affair?
A  Right.
Q  All right, it's torn down here.
A  Okay.
Q  And your pocket was over here, okay?
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  And that's since been torn off.
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  Now, this had a couple of spots of blood on it. (Pointing to the pocket) --
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  -- As we said, Colette's blood. The rest of this area (pointing to the top where the pocket had been removed) is drenched with blood --
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  -- as is this, but that's another story. This is over in -- in the master bedroom -- in your bedroom --
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  -- way over here someplace, away from Colette.
A  Could it have been torn off me, I mean in this struggle and --
Q  Yeah, that's what I'm --
A  Someone else dropped it?
Q  That's what we think, that it was torn off the -- off the jacket there during the struggle. But we have to find a way to get it to the bedroom.
A  I don't know. Maybe someone -- maybe it was hanging on this; and when I walked in, it fell off. You know, I mean -- I just -- there's a couple ways I could picture it.
     Either -- say that, when we were struggling, it was torn off --
Q  Okay, we'll say that.
A  -- and the person on the way out the door dropped it. Is that possible?
Q  Well. Anything is possible.
A  Right, okay.
Q  Some things are less possible.
A  So when it was hanging on me -- when it -- it was hanging on my jacket, when I took it off my arms and -- when I was in the bedroom and I was taking it off, and it dropped off then. I don't know.
     I would assume that it was ripped off and dropped by that -- by them or that when I took the shirt off -- you know, I opened it up to put it over my wife and it dropped off then. And maybe it was kicked away from the body or something by the people -- you know, the medics or the MPs that were giving me artificial respiration.
     And then the blood -- this part got soaked because, you know, I put it over my wife. I really don't know. I just -- you know. It just seems to me that there's some way to explain it.
Q  In addition, we found fibers from this jacket in Kristy's room and in Kimmie's room -- both.
A  Holy Christ.
Q  Again, I'm not sharpshooting you now --
A  No, I know.
Q  -- but you told us that you --
A  Right.
Q  -- took this off --
A  Took it off, right.
Q  -- in the master bedroom.
A  Well, now, how about my hands and stuff? Could it -- could it be coming from my hands as I was taking it off and walking down the hall when --
Q  If there were a corresponding blood smear where this thread was found, yes. But there wasn't. You -- you see what I mean?
A  Right.
Q  You just (inaudible) your hand and wipe something and there's blood and (inaudible) is good that it's (Inaudible).
A  Well, possibly, it's -- I don't know. You know, when I -- I mean, does it have to be smeared with blood and wiped? Couldn't it -- couldn't it have been attached to the hairs on my arm or something and, you know, ripped in the -- in the struggle and fall off?
Q  Maybe, maybe. Yeah.
A  I don't know.
Q  These are --
A  I'm sure I took the thing off.
Q  (Inaudible), you know.
A  I'm sure I took this thing off the first time. I don't -- I didn't make a circuit with this jacket on, I don't think. I came down the hallway -- I know that -- and I went in, and I took it off to get my hands free --
Q  Yeah.
A  -- basically --
Q  Okay.
A  -- and sometime while I was in there the first time, I -- you know, I put it over my wife. All I can say is that it might have been on my arms or -- I don't have much hair on my chest. That's not a help, anyhow -- but it must have fallen from me. It's the only way I can say.
     Or these people involved that had it on them when they left me from the struggle, you know. And they -- Kimmie was still -- was still screaming and so was Colette when I was undergoing the struggle. And, possibly -- if these four people involved, they had to go back to these rooms to finish doing what they were doing, they brought them in then.

Q  Well, we're not talking about a, say, stray thread or a fiber here and there. We're talking about a profusion.
A  Well, it doesn't make any sense to me, a profusion. I don't know.

Q  Well, he doesn't mean like the autumn leaves --
A  Right.
Q  -- but I mean, we're talking about big threads.
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  He -- (inaudible).
A  All I can say is that -- I don't know what this -- you know, how ripped this jacket looks. I don't even remember it, to tell you the truth. I just remember taking -- taking it off my hands.
     But if it was ripped up, it seems to me that threads could be on them and on me. It could have fallen from them. That's all I can honestly say.
     Now, when I went to check them and check their pulses, I could have dropped it or after I was unconscious in the hall, they could have had them on their clothes, or whatever, and dropped them when they went back.
     But I don't -- when you say "fibers," do you mean these fibers had to come from this jacket --
Q  Yes.
A  -- No, no, no. No, I -- I understand they'd have to come from the jacket. But these are not from just routine use?
Q  No.
A  Oh, well, then I have to say it was from after it was ripped when I was struggling. It was either them or me that left them -- left the trail.
     Is that why you are so interested about which rooms I went into --
Q  Yeah, sure.
A  -- when I --
Q  Among other things, but that's -- that's one of the things.
     Now, in addition to all this, we found a fiber from that jacket under Kimmie's fingernail; and it had blood on it, which would indicate somewhere she --
A  Under Kimmie?
Q  -- She got her --
A  I don't know. It's pretty obvious what you're -- I don't know.
Q  Well, this is why I've said, Captain MacDonald, we've got these specific things we've got to talk about --
A  Right.
Q  -- Because you are the only person who knows what happened in that house.
A  Listen, I know all about that and -- look, all -- Jesus Christ. All I can say is that it seems to me these fibers in a struggle could have gotten on everyone -- me or them -- and as they go back into a room, and if Kimmie was still alive at this time and -- and was struggling or fighting or pushing off someone, that she could get a fiber, you know, in her fingernail; or the pocket could fall from my jacket when I opened it up.
     I don't know. I -- I mean, I wish -- I can't give you the answers specifically. I can't say I saw the pocket fall when --
Q  Well this is what we want.
A  I know. I know.
Q  We want to know if you can say that or not.
A  I know. No, I -- I can't specifically say what happened to the pocket, and all I can do is make conjectures about the fibers -- that they were on their hands and mine, and they were dropped during my circuit of the rooms or when they went back in the rooms because they were still screaming.
Q  Did you take anything that would have made you sleep?
A  Anything to make me sleepy?
Q  Yeah, or sleep hard. Did you sleep hard?
A  Well now, when I sleep at home, I sleep hard.
Q  Did you take a sleeping pill?
A  No.
Q  Did you take anything that would make you sleep? A cold pill?
A  Geeze, I didn't take --
Q  An antihistamine? Did you take an antihistamine with your wife?
A  I might have taken an antihistamine. I don't remember it. I don't think so.
Q  Why would you have taken one if you did?
A  Well, this'll sound ridiculous coming from a doctor, but I don't remember taking one that night, and I'd probably remember it. So I don't think I did.
     But, you know, I've taken antihistamines and a couple tetracyclines, which is an antibiotic, when I feel a cold coming on. Now, it's not supposed to work, and I know it's not supposed to work, but I don't get colds. You know, when I take these things, it seems to prevent the cold.
     I don't remember taking one that night, no. I don't remember taking anything to make me sleep.
     Now, when I'm on at work, I -- I hardly sleep. I mean the nurses can tell you that at Cape Fear. They just call me and, you know -- and I'm there like that.
     But when I'm at home and I relax, it's different. I sleep heavy then because I'm usually tired. And not real tired, as I used to be, but I sleep heavy at home. My wife has a hard time getting me up. As a matter of fact.
Q  Did you -- you went in the bathroom one to wash yourself a little bit --
A  Right.
Q  -- and cleaned (inaudible) --
A  Right.
Q  -- and checked yourself. Okay and then, if I recall what you said correctly -- correct me if I'm wrong -- but you said that you realized that you didn't really know what had happened to your children. You hadn't felt their pulses or anything, so you went back to do this again. Is this the chain of events here?
A  No, I think that I did my washing and stuff after I made this chain. That's what -- that's what I was saying before. I think that this was the second circuit. I'm not sure about that, honestly; but I think that I had already checked them and then -- then checked myself. I don't think I ever washed -- washed my hands or anything before, you know, or -- or sponged myself off or anything before I went to see them the second time, I think.
     Because I made the circuit -- made the circuit, made the phone call, and made the circuit again; and then I think that I -- I was in the bathroom then. I don't think that I did washing in the middle, if you know what I mean. I might have, but I don't think so.

Q  So what kind of condition were you in when you went to make the second phone call?
A  Well, I was in the same condition I was in all night. What do you mean, "What kind of condition?"

Q  Cleanliness. Did you have blood on your hands or blood on your person?
A  Oh, listen, hey, there was blood all over -- everywhere. I mean I wasn't -- I wasn't clean by any means. I wasn't -- I was dabbing and trying to think of what to do and this was a cursory thing, you know. I think I used some tissues or something and rinsed my hands off, but I don't even know if I used soap -- (inaudible).
Q  At any point during the night, during this checking before the military police arrived and the medics got there, did you wear a pair of gloves?
A  Did I wear a pair of gloves?
Q  Yeah, you.
A  Oh, yeah, to do the dishes.
Q  What kind of gloves were they?
A  She usually had two pairs laying around there. A yellow, thick dish gloves and -- and a pair of my surgeon's gloves. I don't know which ones I used. I don't remember.
Q  But you did use --
A  Right.
Q  -- gloves to wash the dishes?
A  Yeah.
Q  Okay. After you realized -- you had been attacked yourself when you woke up and you realized that there had been harm done in this house -- all right, you were alone now -- did you wear gloves at any time?
A  No.
Q  Not to take pulses or anything like that?
A  No, huh-uh (No).
Q  Okay. Well, we have a -- we have a lack of blood in some places where there should be, Captain MacDonald, there should be a lot of blood. As you say, there was blood everyplace and you were wondering what to do and --
A  Right. It seemed -- it seemed like that to me. I seemed to see blood everywhere.
Q  Yeah, there should be a lot of blood on the telephone in your bedroom, and there should be a lot of blood on the telephone in your kitchen. But there isn't. There was some blood on the telephone in the kitchen. And it was about the size of a grain of salt, you know.
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  -- If you can visualize that. It's not a lot of blood (inaudible). I think you used it --
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  -- I mean I'm going along with you here --
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  -- The phone is down; it's off the hook --
A  Right.
Q  -- when you left the line, and we know what the operator has told us and all that.
A  Uh-huh (Yes)
Q  Where's the blood? Did you wipe your hands off someplace?
A  Maybe on my wife's nightgown or something; or when I was checking the pulses, I was -- what are my pajama bottoms like? I -- you know, I might've just been going like that. I don't remember. Maybe my hands were relatively dry when I picked up the phone, but I don't --
Q  Well, you know --
A  Not before the first call, unless it was on the rugs or -- you know, my wife -- on the nightgown and stuff, you know. But I don't know. I didn't -- I didn't --
Q  No, I'm not saying --
A  I didn't clean before the first phone call, I know.
Q  You've worked in the emergency room a lot.
A  Right.
Q  It's your profession. And you don't get your hands full of blood and wipe them off and -- and not contaminate what you touch. You get blood on what you touch.
A  Right.
Q  Your --
A  Right, unless it's dry. I mean, you know, if -- now, when -- you know, when I woke up on the floor, if I had been there for a while, it could have been dry and not leave too much.
Q  It wasn't dry when we got there.
A  Okay, that shoots that down. I don't know. I might have wiped them on this terrycloth thing that I don't even remember, or I might have wiped like that on my pants, or on the rug, or anything before I used the phone. But I don't specifically remember doing that.
Q  Did you look around anyplace to see what had happened, other than just looking at your family? In going to look at them or going to use the phone, did you --
A  I looked out the back door once.
Q  Was it open? The door open?
A  The door was open.
Q  How was it?
A  The door was open.
Q  Did you open the curtain to look out?
A  Geeze, I think the door was open.
Q  Was the light on or off?
A  The back porch?
Q  Yeah.
A  I don't remember. I could see. It must have been on. I mean I could see out, and it was either light from the bedroom or the porch light. I don't know. I don't know if the porch light was on or not, but I could see out.
Q  Did you go any other place to -- to look? You know, did you go back to the living room and look around in there or --
A  Well, as I was using the phone, you know, I -- I walked through it and stuff, but -- no, I didn't go out the front door.
Q  Any -- any particular reason why not?
A  Why? I mean why would I go out the front door?
Q  Why did you go out the back door?
A  Because it was open. You know what I mean; everything was open and maybe --
Q  Is that why you didn't go out the front door and look because it was closed?
A  Yeah, I must have seen -- but yeah, I didn't even think about it, to tell you the truth.
Q  All right.
A  I mean I was walking, you know, to use the phone; and I came back and I never thought about the front door.
Q  Did you see anything out of the back door?
A  No.
Q  Did you see your neighbor's lights on?
A  I didn't notice. Usually, the only lights on that -- well, if the couple's porch light is on -- our neighbor right next door to us always has their light on. But I didn't notice it. I mean --
Q  It's quite a ways down?
A  Yeah. I mean I -- I didn't notice that or anything. I didn't -- all I did was look out the door and -- probably -- and go right back in. I don't remember any specifics at all. I didn't see anybody, and that's what I was looking for.
Q  But you didn't -- you didn't see anything remarkable at all or -- apparently?
A  No.
Q  Was it raining?
A  I -- it was wet. I don't know if it was raining. It looked wet out.
Q  Did you put on that terrycloth robe that you have at any point that evening?
A  The brown one?

Q  The sauna robe.

Q  The white one.
A  The white one?
Q  Uh-huh (yes).
A  I have three of them.
Q  Okay, there was a knit white terrycloth robe --
A  Yeah, I know what it is, my shower robe. No.
Q  Did that normally hang there on the doorway?
A  Sometimes.
Q  Was it that night?
A  I don't remember. I'd have -- I don't remember seeing it. I probably would have seen that. I don't know.
     You know, my wife probably used that for the shower, and we just throw it over the door to let it dry, so it might have been.
Q  Did Colette take a shower that night?
A  I don't remember it. I don't think so.
Q  You don't think so?
A  No.
Q  When she went to bed, did she close the door?
A  The bedroom door?
Q  Yeah.
A  No. She hardly ever did.
Q  She left it standing open? Well, the reason I'm asking is to try to help you remember --
A  Yeah.
Q  -- to bring the situation back the way it was.
A  Yeah. No, it's almost -- only rarely would she ever close the door when she -- when I was playing my records a little too loud and she had to -- you know, wanted to go to sleep or something; but that wasn't the case that night.
Q  It wasn't?
A  So. I'm pretty positive that she just left it closed -- or left it open all the way.
Q  Now, chances are that robe was hanging on the door --
A  Right.
Q  -- from the last time it had been used?
A  Right. It's either -- it's usually there on the hook next to her closet, one of those two places. And about fifty-fifty.
Q  Now, that's what this robe was used for -- the shower?
A  Right.
Q  To get from the shower to the bedroom?
A  Well, yeah, to lounge around in sometimes, but the shower usually.
Q  Did you ever wear that outside?
A  The robe?
Q  Yeah.
A  Well, maybe to run to get something off the line, you know, or pick up -- pick up the paper every morning, but not specifically, no.
     Now sometimes, you know, maybe the -- the kids would dress up in those thing and go outdoors and play for a minute; but that was considered good stuff and my mother -- my mother, that's a Freudian slip -- my wife would have, you know, called them back in and taken it off. But not that I know of, no, I never wore it out.

Q  Do you remember in the -- in the master bedroom, what disarray was there when you went in there?
A  What disarray?
Q  Uh-huh (Yes).
A  No.

Q  You started to say something before and you didn't let yourself say it because you weren't sure. We were talking about how you found your wife, if she'd been moved. You said something about she might have been leaning up against the chair, and you decided not to say that. Now, you --
A  Well, I decided not to say it because I'm not sure. I'm --
Q  Does it seem like she might have been?
A  I remember we were right next to the chair; and, you know, I at least moved her limbs to -- you know, to -- to look at her, really, and -- and to see her chest and to give her artificial respiration.
     Now I might have adjusted her shoulders or something like that, to lay her flat, you know, to give artificial respiration and -- heart massage, you have to have then lying flat.
     I honestly don't specifically see myself shifting her. But I was moving her and being excited and being the wife, you know, I might very well have shifted her an inch or two -- a couple of inches -- to lay her flat and then, you know, taken the knife out and, you know, giving her mouth-to-mouth or something. That's perfectly conceivable without me even remembering it, but I don't -- I don't remember it.
Q  Do you know why you took the knife out?
A  No, unless it was, you know, maybe instinctively. I mean if -- you can't do anything with it in there. You can't give her closed chest because it would just increase damage; or if -- well, I didn't think about it. I just took it out, you know.
Q  Yeah. In other words, it was just an instinctive reaction?
A  Yeah, I mean it doesn't do any good in. It can hurt. It can't help.
Q  Did you see the inscription that was written on your headboard?
A  Just read about it.
Q  You never saw it? (Inaudible)
A  Eight inches high; that it was "PIG." That's what I read. I don't -- I didn't see it, no.
Q  Something that puzzles us about that, frankly, is the fact that the word is in the singular and not in the plural. Of course, a great deal can be read into things that don't mean much.
A  Yeah.
Q  And this might be the first -- the first reaction --
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  -- but --
A  Well, was she alone in the bed, you know, at first and -- I don't know. And I have really no thoughts on that. That seems pretty conjecture.

Q  You didn't notice it or go up and examine it or anything?
A  No.

Q  When you went in to go to bed, I take it you found your -- found Kristy in bed and she had urinated in bed, wet the bed. Is that right?
A  Right.
Q  What -- what kind of bed clothes were on the bed? What kind of linen? Were there blankets?
A  I don't remember. I don't know. We usually had, you know -- I don't even know if there was a blanket aside from the bedspread. The bedspread was an ugly green and white and purplish colored thing.
Q  With flowers on it?
A  Yeah.
Q  Like the curtains?
A  Yeah.
Q  It matched the curtains?
A  I think that was the one that was on there then, but I don't remember, honestly. I just remember pulling back the, you know, the stuff and the sheets; and the bed was wet and so I moved Kristy. I don't remember what kind of sheets and stuff were on it.
Q  But they were on it?
A  There were sheets on the bed.
Q  Did you talk to your wife at that time?
A  Huh-uh (No).
Q  Was she asleep?
A  Yeah.
Q  You know, I was just thinking about this big wet spot there on the bed. Was there a lot --
A  This happens all the time. That -- that's -- that's not unusual, you know, every night Kristy was in there -- just about every night. I tried to tell my wife that the way to do it is to keep her in her bed one night, even though she cries. And we did it with Kimmie, and it worked. She never again came in, and there was no problem.
     But Colette, you know, said it was worth -- worth getting up for one minute, rather than to have to go through two or three nights of yelling and screaming. So, she usually always came in. She was two and a half and still had a bottle, you know.
Q  That's kind of unusual, isn't it?
A  We were real easygoing. And if Kristy wanted a bottle, well, we decided that "Let her have a bottle. No big deal." Kimmie had a bottle for a long time, and she was fine. I mean there didn't seem to be any harm, and she was happy. She was a good kid; didn't have any problems.
Q  Kristy was the baby of the family in more ways than one, wasn't she? She was pretty well taken care of, it seems like.
A  Well, they were both taken care of. There was -- I don't think either one of them were really favored. They were totally different.
     Kimmie was real, effeminate and real -- a real female; and Kristy was a tomboy, you know. They were totally different, but I don't think either of them -- you know, we loved them both for, you know, for different -- for different things. Equally, I'm sure.
     You could yell at Kristy more because it didn't affect her. You couldn't yell at Kimmie. I mean, she got very upset if she thought, you know, you were disapproving of her.
Q  She was bright and curious?
A  Yeah, they both were. But Kim was much more academic type. In other words, she would sit and read for hours at her age, you know, which is real unusual for a kid to hold attention. And very curious.
     Kristy was curious, but in a -- you know, she'd grab something and look at it and then run away and do something else. A different kind of outlook.
Q  What kind of class was Colette in?
A  What the heck was the latest one? I don't know. Something literature. I mean I don't really know. She had just gotten an "A" in her 17th century English -- I don't know. It was a -- it was -- she was an English major, and it was some kind of literature course.
Q  What was she pursuing? Was she after her degree or something?
A  Yeah, in English. She was going to end up -- when I go to Yale, she's going to -- she was going to try to, you know, get into Yale or a college nearby. Yale is excepting girls now, and she only needed about a year now. She had two years at Skidmore and a whole lot of courses since we've been married, different places; and she was going to try to get a, you know, a bachelor's in English.
Q  To what end?
A  I don't know. I suppose that she would -- would have liked to have ended up being some kind of an instructor -- excuse me -- preferably in a college atmosphere, you know, wherever I was. I was probably going to stay at a university to practice; and she would just piddle, you know, be an instructor, kind of a part time thing.
     I didn't want her working with the kids, and she didn't want to work very much. And it was nice, you know, having her around and taking care of the kids and taking care of me.
Q  Kimmie was in your bedroom, and she got hurt in there.
A  She got hurt?
Q  Uh-huh (Yes).
A  You mean that night?
Q  That's what I'm saying.
A  Unless she went in -- now, she hardly ever did any more. She did real rarely, but very rarely would she leave her bed. She was, you know, at that point now where she slept in her own bed and stayed there. You know, very rarely she would go in with Colette and myself; but that was like once a month that occurred.
Q  If she heard something, would she have -- and been awakened. If she had been awakened, was she the type of child that would go and investigate to see what was going on?
A  Well, Kristy would. Even at two and a half, probably, but I'm not sure about Kimmie. Kimmie was like a -- you know, she got bucked off the new pony I just got them once and she wasn't -- it took her awhile to get back on. You know what I mean? She wasn't a take-charge and that -- I don't know.
     That's conjecture, but Kimmie was -- she was real effeminate and real soft and gentle, you know; and I -- I don't know -- I don't know.
     But if she had a nightmare, for instance, the only parable [sic] I can draw -- if she'd wake up crying from a nightmare, she'd just sit there and yell until Colette came in, whereas Kristy would come charging into the bedroom and dive into the bed. You know, a whole different -- different way of doing something.
     If -- if Kimberly heard screaming, I would doubt if she'd -- if she would -- if she would go and investigate that. She's bright and curious, but she's also a very dependent type child, you know.
Q  You don't think she would --
A  Well, she might. I know -- I mean, how do you tell what, you know, what -- what a five-year-old girl is -- But I wouldn't -- if you said to me, "What would I expect?" I'd say, "No."
     Kristy, yes. Kristy would go charging anywhere, partially because she's young enough so she doesn't have any fear yet; but -- but Kimmie -- Kimmie was always different. She was always, you know -- you had to take her by the hand, except in -- except in academic things.
     I mean she was the one that came home and knew how to read and write way too early and stuff like that. But like she would -- she'd get pushed around by other kids, whereas Kristy -- Kristy would defend her. Believe it or not.
     Kimmie would come home crying, and Kristy would run over and crack someone, so -- geeze, that's the first time I heard that. I -- I didn't -- I hadn't heard anything about -- about Kimberly being injured in the master bedroom. Umph.
     Now I heard them both screaming, so, you know, I think -- I'm positive it was Kimmie, definitely, with Colette because she's the only one who would call me Jeff; and I know her voice. And I'm sure the other one was -- was Kimberly. So, you know, but I didn't know that -- what you just said.

Q  When you went in to check Kimberly, on which side of the bed was she on?
A  The right side. She always slept on the right side, 'cause sometimes Kimmie would go -- Kristy would go with her.
Q  Towards the middle of the house rather than the windows?
A  No, on the window side. Her -- the right side of the bed. Her right side of the bed. She usually slept on the window side.
     Besides, you had to squeeze through that hi-fi and the bed to go the other way. And we just walked -- you know, walked around the bed to the -- the other side.

Q  There is one thing that I might ask you to cooperate with us. Don't read anything into this; but if -- if it comes to this, are you willing to take a polygraph examination reference what we've talked about this morning?
A  Sure.
Q  Sometimes these things help.
A  Sure. Absolutely.
Q  You are?
A  Yeah.
Q  Okay, well, that's -- that's fine. We wanted to get that out in the open and taken care of before we quit this. You realize you don't have to?
A  Sure. That's fine with me.
Q  We might ask you to do that, just to clear the air here. This -- this (inaudible).
     How would you like to have a cup of coffee?
A  That's fine with me. We've been talking a long time.
Q  Bill, will you take care of that? Show the Captain where the coffee is.
A  I need to call my office; they're expecting me back.

(Break was taken for coffee. Interview ended at 1120 hours. It began at 0935 hours.)




Q  Before we start again, I -- by regulation, I must advise you again of your rights. They are that you have the right to remain absolutely silent. If you do make a statement, it could be used against you. You have a right to legal counsel.
     This means a qualified lawyer. It can be civilian or military. If he's civilian, it will be at your own expense; military, it can be of your own choosing if he is reasonably available. If not, one will be appointed for you.
     Now, even if you decline to have counsel at this time, it doesn't mean you can't stop at any time and say, "I no longer desire to answer questions and I desire counsel," and at that time we will stop.
     Now, Captain, at this time, do you desire counsel? Legal counsel?
A  No.
Q  And you are willing to answering questions concerning -- (inaudible) at this time?
A  Right.
Q  I have been sitting here most of the morning not saying very much and just listening to your story, and I have been an investigator for a long time. And, if you were a PFC, an uneducated person, I might try to bring you in here and bluff you. But you are a very well educated man -- doctor, captain -- and I'm going to be fair with you.
     But your story just doesn't ring true. There's too many discrepancies. For instance, take a look at that picture over there. Do you see anything odd about that scene?
A  No.
Q  It is the first thing I saw when I came to the house that morning. Notice the flower pot?
A  It's standing up.
Q  Uh-huh (Yes). Notice the magazines?
A  Yeah.
Q  Notice the edge of the table right there?
A  I don't understand the significance of it.
Q  Okay. The lab technicians, myself, Mr. Ivory and Mr. Shaw and any number of other people have tipped that table over. It never lands like that. It is top-heavy and it goes all the way, even pushes the chair out of the way. The magazines don't land under the leaning edge of the table. They land on the floor.
A  Couldn't this table have been pushed around in the struggle?
Q  It could have been, but it would have been upside down when it stopped. The plant and the pot always go straight out and they stay together in all instances.
A  Well, what -- what are you trying to say?
Q  That it is a staged scene.
A  You mean that I staged the scene?
Q  That's what I think.
A  Do you think that I would stand the pot up if I staged the scene? It's just my own, you know, interest.
Q  Somebody stood it up like that.
A  Well, I don't see the reasoning behind that. You just told me I was college-educated and very intelligent.
Q  I believe you are.
A  Well, why do you think I would -- I don't understand why you think that I would stage it that way if I was going to stage it.
Q  And your glasses, which you told originally were on the coffee table, and over there underneath the drapery. And they could have gotten there, but you weren't wearing them, your glasses, when you went into the bedroom. And on the -- they are lying with the outer edge of the lens down on the floor, yet on the face of the lens there's blood.
A  Maybe someone knocked them over.
Q  But how did they get blood on them?
A  I assume from the person who knocked them over.
Q  Another feature here. There's an Esquire magazine laying there. There's a box laying on top of it.
A  Where is that?
Q  Right here. Across which -- well, on the -- this edge, right underneath the box. There's blood on the edge of the pages. This whole thing here was staged.
A  That's a pretty powerful statement. Changes things around, doesn't it?
Q  Yes, it does.
A  Well, there's nothing I can say that -- to refute you if that's what you believe. But as far as I'm concerned, it is not staged.
Q  Just about everybody, including lab technicians, lawyers, provost marshal, staff judge advocate, myself, Mr. Ivory, Mr. Shaw -- the table has probably been tilted, tipped, and the only way it would have landed like that is for it to be put that way -- balanced very carefully -- (inaudible) -- by hand.
A  You mean if someone was straddling that table or something, it couldn't fall that way?
Q  No.
A  Well --
Q  If someone was straddling that table when it went over, he'd probably get a broken ankle -- it's that top-heavy.

Q  Captain MacDonald, is there anything you can think of?
A  Well, I can't help you. Well, what do you want me to say? You are telling me that -- that I staged the scene and that's it. It's a little ludicrous.

Q  Well, you must understand that I am looking at it from the point of an investigator, past experience.
A  I understand that.
Q  Notice the rug right there?
A  Right.
Q  It slips and slides and rolls up very easily. In the position it is in, that's where you would have been having the struggling, pushing against three men.
A  Well, at the edge of the bed and on the end of the hallway.
Q  Uh-huh (Yes). The rug is -- was undisturbed.
A  Well, what do you want me to say? I don't -- I'm not an investigator and you are telling me that -- that I staged the scene and I -- I'm telling you that things happened the way I told you.
Q  You know, you as a doctor and I as an investigator have seen many people come into emergency rooms and they are pretty badly hurt.
A  Right.
Q  I've seen people who were shot directly in the heart with a .38 and run over a hundred yards. You had one ice pick wound, apparently from an ice pick; puncture your lung to the point that it collapsed 20 percent of it. You had one small lump on your head.
A  No. Correction, I had two.
Q  Two? Okay, two. Not, apparently, wounds or bumps that would have been caused by this type of club that we have in this instance, if anyone was swinging with any force.
A  Well, I can't agree with you there medically. I have treated patients who have died and there's nothing but a little abrasion on their forehead.
Q  That's probably true, but here you are. You've been hit twice by now. This didn't knock you out. This is according to your story.
     You have a point here where the old adrenalin is pumping into your system; you are fighting for yourself and your children; and yet, you passed out here, according to your story, at the end of the hallway.
A  It wasn't exactly passing out, Mr. Grebner. I was hit on the head a couple of times.
Q  But that didn't knock you out. You were still pushing and fighting against these people and --
A  Well, apparently it did knock me out, though.
Q  -- for an unexplained reason you passed out.
A  No, no, I didn't pass out. Apparently, I was knocked unconscious.
Q  By a third blow?
A  I don't -- I don't know how many blows.
Q  But this weapon was used on Colette and Kim. It is a brutal weapon. We have three people here that are over-killed almost; and yet, they leave you alive.
A  Well, I've gone over that myself and the only way I can see that I was the first one; that when I was unconscious --
Q  While you were laying there in the hallway, why not give you a good lick or two behind the head with that club and finished you off?
A  Well, Maybe I was --
Q  You saw them eye-to-eye. They don't know that you wouldn't be able to identify them at a later date. Why leave you there alive?
A  I don't know. Maybe they assume that -- that I was dead and the frenzy got worse and worse. I -- I don't know.
     I've thought about this. I've spent many sleepless nights in the last six weeks, you know.
     The only thing I can see is I did hear some screaming and perhaps I was the first one, and then things got worse and worse. I don't know.
Q  Well, that means that there had to have been somebody in the back bedroom there with Colette, wouldn't there?
A  Unless they had already hit her or stabbed her once or twice and left her and come in to see me, and then she started screaming, and they went back on their way out. That's the only way I could have worked it out.
Q  And then we have the fibers from the threads that sewed your pajama pocket on directly underneath her body.
A  Sir, I told you I can't -- I can't explain some of those fibers. That's -- that's beyond my capabilities. I just told you the only thing I know; and, obviously, the implication is real bad for me. But I can't -- how can I explain that? I don't know.
     They had to be either on my hands or body or -- or the -- the aggressors, and they were dropped. That's all I can tell you.
Q  And as we enter the bedroom, we have Kimberly's blood on the rug -- mat. To the right of the door, we have a sheet and coverlet for the bed; and on the sheet is Colette's blood and Kimberly's. And on the bedspread -- it's Colette's blood, large quantities -- both -- the hairs of Kimberly.
     Now hippies don't -- they let bodies fall where they may.
A  Right, I agree with you.
Q  So, it is another staged scene probably. Kimberly was returned to her bed -- it's a possibility -- carried in the sheet.
A  Couldn't that blood have been transported to that bed any other way? On the hands?
Q  Too much of it -- too much blood. It couldn't have been transported by hands -- (inaudible) -- but there's blood there.
     There is absolutely no evidence that could be found, even though we had technicians for five days in there, of an alien being in that house. There would have had to have been five people by your story. You saw four of them. You get that many people in a house that small, you're going to have evidence of it.
A  You mean to tell me there was nothing in that house from anyone else?
Q  Not in those bedrooms.
A  What's that?
Q  Not in those bedrooms.
A  Well, there's been plenty of people in those bedrooms. I mean if they hadn't been there that night, there were people in those bedrooms; so I don't understand what you are saying. That -- that -- isn't -- that doesn't necessarily hold true to me, in my mind.
Q  We are talking about people in there to commit a crime. Not people --
A  I know.
Q  -- That were tiptoeing in. The kids were asleep.
A  I don't know what you expect me to say here.
Q  At one point you told I think it was Mr. Hodges that there was an ice pick in the house.
A  No, I never said that. That is absolutely incorrect. I was asked --
Q  Mr. Caverly and Mr. Hodges. Those two men. One was an FBI man and the other was my man.
A  I never said there was an ice pick in the house. We had no ice pick. I'm lazy and I buy cubes. That's -- that's incorrect, sir and -- (inaudible).
Q  Well, most of us have ice picks. We don't use them as ice picks quite often, We use them for opening canned milk.
     That club, you said you had never seen that before. Do you know that the paint on that is the same as paint that's on the sidewalk out in the back of your house?
A  Look --
Q  It is the same as the paint on scraps of wood that you have in your locked storage room.
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  It is the same as the paint on a pair of surgical rubber gloves that was in your locked storage room. That piece of wood came from your house.
A  It might have been. I haven't seen the piece of wood. You said it was a two by two and I -- I know of no two by two's.
Q  It was cut off of probably a four by -- two by six, or something like that.
A  Well, I didn't recognize it from the picture, and you said it was a two by two before, and I know of no two by two's that I have, and I didn't recognize it from the picture.
     Jesus Christ, this is getting -- what's this called? Circumstantial evidence that -- yeah. Well, go ahead. What else do you have?
Q  I was just throwing things in for you to consider.
A  Well, what you are doing, you are sitting here telling me that I killed my wife and kids. That's un -- that's unbelievable. Christ's sakes. What's my motive? What'd I do that for?
Q  We can conjecture a lot of reasons, perhaps.
A  You think I wasn't happily married?
Q  I'm happily married too. Sometimes I get pretty mad at my wife, particularly when I was younger and more easily angered -- (inaudible).
A  You think I could get mad enough at someone to do that?
Q  I have known it to happen before.
A  Holy Christ. I tell you what it looks like to me. It looks like you've run out of things and -- and you are picking out someone -- the easiest one. That's what it looks like to me.
     You've got to solve it by the end of the fiscal year so when the report goes in, there's a hundred percent solved rate.
Q  No, I've been at this for twenty years, and I'm going to stick one more. So, I'm not in any hurry.
     It is just that we have all these -- business here, and it would tend to indicate that you were involved in it rather than five people who came from the outside and picked 544 Castle Drive, and went up and were lucky enough to find your door open.
     I spent many a night out on the post, and I know one thing. With the number of dogs we have around, you don't go around rattling doors here and find one that's open so you can come in and for no apparent reason and knock off three people. At that hour of the morning, the patrols we have around, there wouldn't have been five -- would keep a group of five people wandering through the housing area --
A  Oh, that's a lot of baloney.
Q  -- Or driving through.
A  I've never seen a patrol there at night, and I've been there since August.
Q  Well, I can assure you they are there. You probably weren't looking for them.
A  Well, where do we go from here?
Q  It's up to you.
A  It's not up to me. I told you what I -- what I know. You put some pictures in front of me, tell -- tell me they are staged and tell me I did it.

Q  You've got what? A five-room house there?
A  Right.
Q  And at least three of them were set-ups, just flat set-ups -- staging --
A  Which three are those?
Q  Living room, north bedroom, south bedroom.
A  What's the north bedroom? You mean the master bedroom?
Q  The front bedroom and the back bedroom. Kristy's bedroom.
A  Kristy? The baby?
Q  The north bedroom.
A  What -- what did I stage in there? Just for my own interest.
Q  Let me tell you something. I don't want to step out of line here; and if I am, I'm sorry. I don't know that you did that, Captain MacDonald. I don't know it at all.
     But my experience tells me, too, that what you say isn't right. What you say, Captain MacDonald, is not right. Why it isn't, I don't know. I don't know what you know.
A  You mean because it is an unusual, bizarre crime?
Q  No, no, the crime isn't bizarre. It happens every day, every day. In New York City they have twenty or thirty murders a day, some far worse than this. But by the physical evidence that is in this house --

MR. IVORY:  And the lack of physical evidence.
Q  -- What you say isn't so. It just isn't so.
     Now, there -- there are variations I am thinking of. We don't know what happened. I don't know what happened in that house.
     Maybe some of the others who are not here who are concerned with it are convinced, but I am not. I am not at all convinced.
     But I don't know what happened. I don't know how this started. I don't know what the succession of events were. I have no idea.
A  And you'd like to help me, right?
Q  No, I'm not going to tell you I want to help you.
A  You have the soft approach and he has the hard. Basic intelligence. Go ahead.
Q  Basic intelligence, okay. You don't want to hear what I have to say?
A  Sure, I am very interested.
Q  I think Mr. Grebner made that kind of clear to you.
A  What's that?
Q  That he's not going to try to fool you -- bluffing. It's called the Mutt and Jeff approach. I guess you've heard that before.
A  Right. As a matter of fact, I just learned it two weeks ago.
Q  Okay, you've discussed this with somebody?
A  I was a prisoner of war -- physician in a training room.
Q  You can think what you want to, I don't care; but I wish you wouldn't. But that's all right.
     But I am not convinced what other people think is right, do I know that what you're saying -- but I believe what you're saying isn't so.
A  Wow. Step one, you lose your family, step two, you get blamed for it, huh? That's terrific. Great.

Q  You are the only that was left alive there.
A  Oh, well, that's -- that's pretty significant.
Q  It sure is from the way that -- from the way the others were taken care of. Everything else is very methodical. There was no erratic behavior in that house. Maybe to start with there was some erratic behavior; but other than that, at the finish -- very methodical.
A  How was I supposed to have gotten these wounds?
Q  You could get these wounds, at least the ones you had -- the puncture -- you could have done it yourself.
A  A couple of blows on the head and a lot of little puncture wounds, and a little cut on the abdomen and a couple of stab marks in the arm and -- and a puncture wound in the lung.
Q  That's one.
A  That's reasonable, or I paid someone. That's the other one.
     Well, I don't know what you men want me to say. I don't have much to lose, do I? I lost everything else. You men are making an awful lot out of this on circumstantial evidence that can probably be explained, I can tell you that.
Q  That's -- that's why I am bring it up; to -- (inaudible) -- explain.
A  I mean I can't -- I can't explain the scene. It just seems to me that in a struggle, any staging would be possible. You know what I mean.
     In other words, people stepping on things or legs against things, holding it when it fell or -- it doesn't -- it just doesn't ring true to me that that has to be a staged scene. I don't -- I --
Q  You mean someone grasping at you; and the table starts tipping over, someone --
A  No, no, no, I didn't say that, Mr. Grebner. I mean you are just making fun of what I am saying. I mean you asked me a question. You asked me for my idea, and my idea is that if this guy is standing next to that table, and perhaps this girl was moving around behind him or something, and the table goes over and it hits her leg.
Q  Okay. How did the flower pot get upright?
A  I don't know. Maybe someone stepped on it and tilted it. Maybe it bounced when it flew off the table.
Q  It never did that in all the times we tried it.
A  Well. You are telling me that I staged the scene and did an absolutely idiotic thing. And yet, I was very methodical. It doesn't hold any water. I -- what did I do? Dump out the plant and sit the pot down? I mean if I staged the scene -- ahh --
Q  You might have dropped it -- (inaudible). The plant's on top of the table; and when you tipped the table over --
A  Maybe one of the medics or the MPs kicked it or stood it up, you know. Jesus Christ, when did you people start thinking like this? I mean what -- when -- when did all this come to light?
Q  This -- this scene right there, I questioned when it first came up. I thought it was very odd.
A  You mean, it took --
Q  What I noticed first was the plant, the pot and the magazines. Now I didn't realize that the table was that top-heavy --
A  But it took -- but it took -- but it took --
Q  -- touching --
A  -- but it took your office six weeks to question -- question me about these things?
Q  Captain, we've been all over the United States tracing down hippies and girls with long blonde hair.
A  I'm sure. I understand that, but I mean, it just -- it seems to me that --
Q  This box just holds part of the work we've done. We've talked to thousands of people.
A  Oh, man. Jesus Christ, this is a nightmare. This is like Edgar Allen Poe. Wow. Apparently, you don't know much about my family and myself, I'll tell you that, to come up with this conclusion. Or me, for that matter.

Q  What kind of a man are you, Captain? You say we don't know much about you. What kind of a man are you?
A  Well, I'm bright, aggressive. I work hard, and I had a terrific family, and I loved my wife very much. And this is the most asinine thing I've ever heard in my whole life. It's almost as bad as the next morning, thinking about this and thinking it was a dream. Jesus Christ.
     You can ask any patient I've treated. I go way out of my way. I've spent my whole, you know, my whole medical career -- it isn't that long -- but to date I've never had a problem with a patient. Always gone out of my way; always worked extra hours; always helped people.
     I loved my wife more than any couple I know. I've never known a couple that's -- that's as happy as our family, and you come up with this shit. Goddamn it. (Crying)
     You couldn't ask one friend. You didn't even talk to some of them. You made appointments and never showed up.
     Goddamn it, how do you come up with this that?
     We even had plans for a farm in Connecticut. (Crying.) Well, that's load of bullshit, I tell you. Goddamn it.

Q  Jeff, I have to go on what evidence that is available to me.
A  Yeah, bullshit. Looking at some circumstantial things and making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Q  During an investigation, we have to look at the circumstantial evidence, the real evidence. And we try not to make a mountain out of mole hills.
A  What -- what -- no one ever had as good a life as I had. What the hell would I try to wreck it for? Christ, I was a doctor. Jesus, I had a beautiful wife who loved me and two kids who were great. We were just over all the hard things. It just doesn't -- it just doesn't make any sense. (Crying.)
     Well, what do we do now?

Q  Another thing, one of those knives was identified by people who had been in the house as having coming from your house. The problem here is that --
A  Well, why don't you show me the damn knife? You show me a photograph.

Q  At least two of the knives that were used, apparently used, came from the house. You've got --
A  Who -- who identified --
Q  -- four plus people come into your house --
A  Who identified these weapons? Who identified these weapons?
Q  The lab identified the club; but the same people, the same people you knew.
A  All right, that's possible. I agree with that. I had wood all around. I had wood in the shed; I had wood in that little hole next to the house. That's all possible. Who identified the knife?
Q  We have a person who has been in the house before and positively identified the knife.
A  Well, either they are wrong, or that's not a good photograph, one of two. Or it was a new knife that my wife had gotten and I haven't seen yet. But I don't know who would identify that, and I'd see it before anyone else would.
     It seems to me there's a lot of paring knives in the world, and I never told anyone I had an ice pick. That's lie, or they misunderstood me. I never -- I never had a -- I know we -- well, like I said, maybe my wife had one that she had just purchased. But anything that had been there for a while, I probably would have seen it. I don't know of any ice pick.
     Goddamn Colonel Kriwanek. He's unbelievable. He says to the press, "One of the mysteries is where the weapons came from." Why the hell didn't he show me the weapons and ask me?
Q  If you had a struggle right in this area -- see these? (Inaudible.) They were on the couch.
A  They what?
Q  Up in the hallway at the top of the little two steps here.
A  They -- they were what, sir?
Q  They were in the hallway.
A  Yeah.
Q  Right at the top of the steps. If you had been in a struggle there, there sure as hell would have been some of them kicked back down in the hallway. (Inaudible.)
A  We often piled, you know, loose stiff in the living room at the end of the hallway there.
Q  Well, that's where they were.
A  So, then this is a --
Q  That -- that particular shot there was taken --
A  After some things changed position.
Q  No.
A  Yeah, bullshit. You just told me that that was in the hallway.
Q  That's the one we changed position -- (inaudible).
A  Oh, I see. That's the only thing in here --
Q  (Inaudible)
A  That's the only thing in here that's changed position? Uh-huh (Yes) Who's going to swear to that?
Q  (Inaudible)
A  (Inaudible) -- Photographs.
Q  We moved it so we would not step on it.
A  Good.
Q  But it's been photographed --
A  What else was moved that was --
Q  -- It's been photographed in its place.
A  What else was moved so you wouldn't step on it? Maybe this? Maybe the table? Shit. This gets more unprofessional every minute, I tell you that.
Q  (Inaudible) That's not true.
A  How can you show me a photograph and make a big point out of a flower pot's position when something in the photograph has changed position?
Q  Well, I have a photograph -- this happens to be just one of them. I have a photograph where this is up here, and this scene is like this, too. We have several different photographs --
A  And that's marked number one.
Q  Huh?
A  And that other one is marked number one, because that was taken before this was moved.
Q  Huh-uh (No). You can see the daylight here. See, this was taken in the day and this was taken immediately in the morning. That's just got to be another shot, because the lab technicians went around and photographed everything as they picked up the evidence of blood stains, hairs, fibers, et cetera.
A  You mean to tell me you found no other prints of any aliens on any weapons or anything in that house?
Q  We didn't find any fingerprints, -- (inaudible) -- bloody fingerprints on that phone.
A  What do you expect me to say? That I used the phones? I told you I used the phone, and my hands were bloody. If you didn't find the fingerprints --
Q  You came from your wife's body and there was a lot of blood there. (Inaudible)
A  Well, how do you explain it? What do you --
Q  I know how I can explain it, but -- (Inaudible) --
A  Well, what does it mean to you?
Q  Well --
A  You are making a big point out of it. What does --
Q  -- That your hands were washed.
A  Look, when I got to the hospital, my hands were still bloody. Why would --
Q  Did you have surgical gloves on? Somebody had surgical gloves on.
A  Then how did I get blood all over my hands and not on the phone? I mean I don't understand where you are leading. You are saying -- you are talking in circles and not --
Q  So, as Mr. Shaw said, he said maybe you didn't do it. But you are not telling us exactly what did -- what you do know happened. (Inaudible)
     So if you're not telling me, you must have your reasons for not telling me.
A  Look, Mr. Grebner, what I told you is what I remember from that night; and that's the truth. That's really -- that's -- I'm not covering up for anybody.
     If someone killed my wife and daughters, you can be assured that I wouldn't be covering up for them. You can rest assured of that fact.
     All I can say to you is that, you know, maybe things weren't exactly as I said, simply because of the excitement, but I told you what I know.
     In other words, these -- these are some minor details that -- people in other rooms, I don't know about. And there are some minor details that maybe are a little hazy and confused. But the gist of what happened is what I told to the best of my abilities, and that's all I can say. I mean I don't -- I don't know any more, and the rest of it is pure bullshit.
     What -- what possibly could I have gained from this? I mean what -- Jesus Christ. What would I have gained by doing this?

(Photographs were handed to Captain MacDonald.)

A  She looks familiar, but -- Judy. The nose looks familiar. But I don't know who she is. The other girl I don't know. Oh, I -- let me see that. It looks like a girl I knew in San Antonio.
Q  This one here?
A  Huh?
Q  What's her name?
A  Her name isn't Judy though, is it?
Q  (Inaudible)
A  She's a nurse. I was with her one night; did not have intercourse with her. No big deal. She wrote me one letter, and I ripped it up and threw it away. That's her.
     You are more thorough than I thought.
Q  Huh?
A  You're more thorough than I thought. That was a -- that was a -- a very unmemorable one-day thing. You guys have gone on some mild stuff in calling -- in calling me a family murderer.
Q  Don't read into this into this, but would you be willing to take a polygraph test if it comes to this?
A  Absolutely.
Q  You realize you don't have to.
A  Yes, no problem, bring it on; I'm ready.
Q  Okay, we will set it up, we have to get our people here.
A  You mean you don't have them here all ready?
Q  No, Captain MacDonald, it has to be arranged.

(At this point he starts to ask questions about the tests which are answered, but not transcribed in this document.)

MR. MACDONALD:  You guys have gone on some pretty mild stuff in calling me a family murderer.

MR. SHAW:  Well, If I comment about this, you'll jump on me just like you did before, when you accused me of using the Mutt and Jeff routine; and I don't want to be in that position.

A  No, I'm just -- I'm not asking, you know -- I'm just -- that's my own feeling in the matter right now that --
Q  Sure. Sure I know.
A  -- It looks a little dangerous to me, because that -- Jesus, that looks pretty minor stuff; and I think -- in my own mind I could explain it very easily, you know, and not -- and not feel bad about it, if you know what I mean.
     If I was investigating, I could say, "Jesus, so the table -- so the table is top-heavy. What if her knee was against it when it went over?" You know, it just -- it doesn't seem to me to be -- that -- you can call a person in and take what's left from him, something like that. It just doesn't -- doesn't hold any water.
     And there's not much left. I mean -- Jesus Christ.
Q  Well, in the event -- as you know, just from -- just from this -- just this stuff, there's been a lot of stuff, a lot of work on this; and we've had every major CID office in the continental United States working on this for us.
A  Uh-huh (Yes).
Q  -- Every -- every aspect; and it's -- it's just not there, Captain MacDonald. Those people you saw can't be found anywhere. People like them? Yes, there have been -- I won't say arrest -- but there have been thousands of detentions all over the country, here and there --
A  Okay, two possibilities. One, they haven't been found yet --
Q  Yeah.
A  -- and two, they have already been questioned and have answered the questions satisfactorily. Now, isn't that possible? I mean certainly -- certainly, in a lot of cases, your best team wasn't on every on every person, if you know what I mean. I'm not implying or anything about individuals, but --
Q  That's true.
A  If you have every office in the country working and every FBI, it is perfectly conceivable that these people were questioned and released and --
Q  Possible, but not -- not likely.
A  Uh-huh (yes).
Q  Let me ask you something for my own edification about a Lt. Ron Harrison. What kind of relationship did you and your family have with this Ron Harrison? Lt. Harrison I think his name is.
A  He was a -- well, as you know, he's an unusual type of guy.
Q  No, I don't know. I've never seen him before.
A  Oh, well he -- he -- I don't even know how I met him, to tell you the truth. I just met him around the group somehow.
     And he's got an extremely, he's intelligent and he's very funny. He hides it. I mean he tries to hide his intelligence. He's -- he's an old N.C.O., see, and he's very proud of that. He doesn't want to let on that he's been to college and that he reads poetry, you know, back in his room and stuff. So, he's an interesting guy.
     He's very, very, very funny. He's -- he's just terrific at parties and stuff like that. And I just became friends with him. It was off the cuff. This thing, you know, like kind of cemented it.
     He was never my best friend or anything until this happened, and all of a sudden he -- he -- you know, he was around a lot. And he was always there and always helping my mother and stuff like that, but -- and I tell you, in the last couple of weeks, he's great to have around. He's always ready to take me for a beer or somewhere to a movie together or go out and eat or something, you know.
     But -- he's a little morbid. He's got a terrific desire to -- I mean he came back into the Army. He was in the Army and left, went to college and he came back in with the avowed purpose of shooting people, you know.
     And they made him a rigger, and he went in and banged on [the] desk and was yelling and screaming that he likes to shoot people, and I kind of think he's funny. I mean, he's a -- he doesn't scare me the way he scares some people.
     Like at a party, he had a little bit too much to drink, he has a lot of buddies who are dead, and he always got to talking about them. But I don't -- I don't ever listen when he gets melancholy. I just like him 'cause he's funny. He's such a ball of fire.
     He's at some school right now, some secret school, up in Washington -- up in Virginia or Washington. He makes a big mystery out of everything, you know. He always looks around and whenever you mention the CIA, he goes sh-sh-sh, you know. He play-acts a lot.
Q  Is he still a rigger?
A  No, they put him in charge of an "A" team in 6th group because he was banging on desks. And actually, I'm sure, in the weeds he terrific, you know. I mean he's that kind of a guy. He's just -- he's a loner and he's hard, and he likes to get out and command a small detachment, you know, and do that kind of a job. He's on his way to 'Nam.
Q  Has he -- does he have a tour over there yet?
A  No. Well, he's been somewhere. He won't tell anybody where it is. It's all part of his game.
Q  What? As an old N.C.O.?
A  Yeah, he just -- you know, he's -- he talks about the Bolivian mountains -- (inaudible) -- then he talked about some of the Laotian projects, you know, a lot of knowledge.
     I don't know if it was picked up or he was there, but he never lets you know. You know, one of those guys. I have a sneaking suspicion that if you really get down to it, he's probably never been anywhere and that he's garnered this; that he's very, you know, intelligent. He picks up all this from other people and kind of blends it in with his war stories.
     But I think -- in my own mind, I think that he's probably never really been where it's at, you know. I think that -- he's taken Ranger School and made a big deal out of that, and now it sounds as though he's --
Q  He wants to go real bad.
A  Yeah.
Q  -- (Inaudible) --
A  Yeah. But he'd come over for dinner, you know. We had him over every two or three weeks for dinner, that was it. Nothing -- nothing spectacular.
Q  Did he ever bring a friend with him? Girlfriend or --
A  Yeah, he has a girl up in Ohio. My wife never met her. She just came in a few weeks ago, and I met here for the first time. He dates occasionally, but he's kind of a loner and he sticks with this one girl up in Ohio.
     They have kind of a, you know, unusual relationship. I mean he told her that -- that maybe he'll get married and maybe he won't; and she's perfectly happy to sit around and wait, you know. He's not really a family type guy.
     I mean he tells her that, "I'm going to go in the weeds and shoot people, and I might not come back." And she just accepts all that very nicely.
     Lately, he's kind of become my best friend, you know.

Q  What did you do with the pony?
A  Gave it to Frank Moore -- Captain Moore.
Q  Captain?
A  He works in my office. He worked in my office. Now he's working for the center surgeon.
Q  What -- what are you doing now? What job do they have you in?
A  Group surgeon.
Q  Group surgeon?
A  I just made it last week. I was the P.M. -- preventive medicine officer -- and then I became group surgeon.
Q  What does that entail?
A  Well, you know, I've got about eight physicians. We run a dispensary and some medical coverage in the field and take care of any medical problems for the group. Medical supplies are involved, you know, and planning and training physicians, training the medics.
Q  Administration?
A  Right. Right.
Q  I guess, that's kept you pretty busy?
A  It's relevant. It's not like internship. You know what I mean. This is eight to five.
Q  Yeah.
A  And it's easy work. It's not hard. It gets boring.

Q  Interns, it seems to me -- I don't know. I don't know much about this, but don't interns work some real funny shifts, like 36 hours on and --
A  That's what I worked -- 36 on and 12 off.
Q  For how long?
A  For a year. That's what I said. I've already been through the hard years.
Q  Why do they drive interns so hard?
A  I don't know. It's an old antiquated system and "If I did it, you are going to do it." It is starting to change now with the more militant people coming. I don't -- I don't like militant people, but they are doing some good things.
     And one of them is that these people are refusing to do that. They are looking for internships that you are on every fourth night -- you know, it's reasonable. They can go home, see your family. But it hadn't been that. It's always been this ridiculous work week, 100 hours. That's considered nothing.
Q  Are you completely finished with your training?
A  Well, I can go be a G.P. now. But if I want to specialize, I have to go back. I have a residency at Yale for orthopedic surgery.
Q  What will -- how many years will that take?
A  Four.
Q  Four years residency.
A  But you get paid; you are a doctor, you know. And I mean this is -- (Inaudible) -- going through a kind of apprenticeship and learning as militant, as an orthopedic surgeon.
     And then when I come out of that, I'm a qualified orthopedic surgeon instead of being a G.P. But you get paid. It's not -- it's not like being a student any more, so it's just part of being a doctor.

Q  When you are an intern, you are more or less a student. Is that right?
A  Well no, you are a doctor. You have control of the patients and you are getting paid.
Q  But not like a residency.
A  Well, they are moving up. It used to be two thousand a year. Now in New York and Los Angeles is up to ten thousand. In the middle of the country, you know, it's still four or five thousand per year.
Q  How long is medical school?
A  Four years.
Q  Four years?
A  Internship is one and a residency, depending on what you want to do, anywhere from two to seven. That's at the college.
Q  So, you don't have to have a residency at all, if you don't --
A  No residency to be a G.P., right.
Q  That's after four years of college?
A  Right.
Q  It must cost a tremendous amount of money.
A  It sure does. Ten thousand dollars in the hole. I'm going to start paying it back now. Fortunately, I got the federal loan so there is no problem, you know. I'll just be finishing my residency when they start to come due, and I have ten years to pay them off. So that's nothing, you know. I mean, once I'm a physician, I'll be able to pay it off without any problems.
Q  What do most people do? Do they get a federal loan or --
A  Yeah, well, it used to be that only wealthy people went into medicine. But when regular people go in now, then they always have to -- they're (inaudible). Every one of them. I mean you just can't do it otherwise.
     You can't live in New York City on four thousand dollars if you have a family. By yourself you can't do, the minimum is considered ten for a family of four.
Q  I was in New York not too long ago and just about went broke.
A  It's unbelievable.
Q  Well, this is what these mailmen are talking about.
A  I mean.
Q  You take a guy out in Clinton, Oklahoma --
A  If he's making ten, he's doing all right.
Q  -- He's doing fine.
A  Right.
Q  But the same guy in New York, it's -- (inaudible).
A  But as soon as they get a rise, someone raises the prices. It never ends. As soon as the military gets a raise, everything in Fayetteville goes up.

MR. SHAW:  Usually, it's before the raise comes through.

Q  Well, they've raised the prices in the P.X. and commissary, too. Have you had any contact with the Kassabs?
A  Just on the phone. Freddie calls me all the time and I call them. I called Mildred last week. She's not doing real well.
Q  What is the problem?
A  Just, you know, real -- real -- she -- she wouldn't go out. She's in the house and you go stir crazy. I'm in my room one hour and I go out of my mind, so I got to go out. I go eat somewhere. I go watch a movie. Anything, you know, to get out.
     But she won't leave the house. So she's just sat there with the walls closing in on her for six weeks now. She's just starting to get out now. She sounds like a zombie when you talk to her. Jesus.
     Freddie went back to work, but he lost about twenty-five pounds.
Q  Was he out of work for a while?
A  Well, just when he was down here with -- my father-in-law, he's not out of work, no.
Q  No, I mean did he deliberately stay away from work?
A  Just when he was here. He went back to work when he went back; but, apparently, he said it's been pretty hard to get back in the swing of it.
     It's been hard for them -- you know -- it's -- it's been hard for -- all -- all -- of us.

Well I think we have covered all we need at this time. We will notice you when the polygraph has been arranged.

(End of the meeting.)